Unbelievable bureaucracy

[AVB]

I recently did a small piece of work for one of the police forces. I could have done more but decided not to for the simple reason that life is too short to deal with some of the bureaucracy I witnessed. This work would have resulted in small changes being made to some operational procedures (non front line) and staffing. The approval process for this involved 12 different boards. Each board has to wait until the previous board had approved prior to reviewing documents and approving. Documents had to be sent four weeks in advance. It would have taken a year to get approval although I was advised that 18 months was more realistic. I have spent all of my career in the private sector (Banking) and this sort of change would have gone from inception to approval in four weeks, if not less. And there were front line coppers involved in this not just civvies so taking people away from solving crimes to deal with **** like this.

 

If the rest of the Public Services are like this then God help us. 

[Yellow Bear]

4 minutes ago, AVB said:

If the rest of the Public Services are like this then God help us. 

They are - that is why they wanted to stay in the EU so they could add to it - jobs for the boys!

Working for or with Public Services including the NHS was always a pain in the butt with the

bureaucracy.

[discobob]

My last contract before going permanent was under IR35 for a local (English) council. It was 15 miles from the house and I would have walked away after tax with a decent amount considering my expenses were negligible with being local.

I lasted a week and quit. I found a big problem that had been reported as what seemed to be a minor problem. I came up with what the fix was and how to do it - all within an hour.

They wanted to have a meeting with 8 people to decide who was going to pay for that hour. That along with also having to account for my time 5 different ways on a daily business was enough for me. My wife's family are all based there and it galled me to see the waste - but no doubt it is repeated in all Councils in all nations of our United Kingdom

 

[GingerCat]

I don't doubt a word of it. Changing anything is a nightmare and involves lots of pointless meetings. They will always add a layer on top of what exists but never take one away that's redundant. 

I took over a small niche team and reviewed the processes. Drew a line through about 70% of them and we cracked on. Output increased massively, accountability and legality remained and so did the usual safeguards. Lots of scratching heads and tantrums ensued but ultimately I got my way and it expanded. I even had lawyers review it and they agreed with me.   Hardly breathtaking but an example of the weariness that exists. I think some of it is to do with empires and the only way it appears of being more important is to have more bits of paper I.e. burden than the next person with no agility or resilience in sight. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I find it easier just to implement changes and see if any body wishes to contest!

Usually they just accept and often pass their thanks that someone has got something done.

[discobob]

21 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I find it easier just to implement changes and see if any body wishes to contest!

Usually they just accept and often pass their thanks that someone has got something done.

I didn't have the rights to do the fix 😞

I have done that in the past when a change would have taken months (government systems) where they kept going down - I made the change and waited for someone to say "oooh the systems haven't gone down for a while". I then put a retrospective change in

[Gordon R]

Just bumped into a friend, who was walking past. He had just visited the local tip to get rid of some interior doors. He was refused access until he provided:-

A copy of his Council Tax bill.

A hard hat.

A hi-viz jacket.

A pair of safety boots.

A pair of gloves.

The World is going mad.

 

[JohnfromUK]

I worked all my life (I'm retired now) in the private sector - mainly for small UK companies, but finally (as a result of being bought up) for a large American corporation.  All my working life - our 'customers' were (almost all) various government departments (both the UK and it's 'friends' and allies), so I have dealt with civil servants/government employees all of my life.  Long drawn out processes and procedure keeps them all in jobs - it is their life blood, food and drink.  Often the only measure of their 'success' and 'importance' is based on the number of staff they can keep (looking) busy.

What you say is very normal and rings so many bells!.  What I can say is that the UK government is usually rather less bureaucratic than many of our friends and allies.  The USA for example is much worse.

[Deker]

Unfortunately the public sector is full of people who have managed to make a career out of looking busy while actually not making a single decision, simply arranging meetings to pass the responsibility, I left local government as I simply didn't want to be stuck in this loop (you either let it get to you and leave or accept it's the way things work and join in!).

I left an IT managed service company last year to join a MUCH larger one and although the potential is there to work on cutting edge technology I do see similar amounts of red tape and work which should take weeks bouncing around for many months before actually getting implemented (it's really starting to grate on me being told "you'll get used to it".

 

[Fisheruk]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Just bumped into a friend, who was walking past. He had just visited the local tip to get rid of some interior doors. He was refused access until he provided:-

A copy of his Council Tax bill.

A hard hat.

A hi-viz jacket.

A pair of safety boots.

A pair of gloves.

The World is going mad.

 

That’s Bolton for you!

[discobob]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Just bumped into a friend, who was walking past. He had just visited the local tip to get rid of some interior doors. He was refused access until he provided:-

A copy of his Council Tax bill.

A hard hat.

A hi-viz jacket.

A pair of safety boots.

A pair of gloves.

The World is going mad.

 

They have just brought in proof of address at ours - apparently there are places in Wales that you have to book two weeks in advance

1 hour ago, Deker said:

Unfortunately the public sector is full of people who have managed to make a career out of looking busy while actually not making a single decision, simply arranging meetings to pass the responsibility, I left local government as I simply didn't want to be stuck in this loop (you either let it get to you and leave or accept it's the way things work and join in!).

I left an IT managed service company last year to join a MUCH larger one and although the potential is there to work on cutting edge technology I do see similar amounts of red tape and work which should take weeks bouncing around for many months before actually getting implemented (it's really starting to grate on me being told "you'll get used to it".

 

Done gigs in those type of places!! Thats why I tried to stick with project based work - it tended to be a bit more dynamic - one Gov project was very dynamic as it was run as a small business to deliver to the MOD

[GingerCat]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Just bumped into a friend, who was walking past. He had just visited the local tip to get rid of some interior doors. He was refused access until he provided:-

A copy of his Council Tax bill.

A hard hat.

A hi-viz jacket.

A pair of safety boots.

A pair of gloves.

The World is going mad.

 

And I'm sure flytipping won't increase because of it. Not. 

[JohnfromUK]

16 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

And I'm sure flytipping won't increase because of it. Not.

But you see - it makes more jobs for them - they then have to have a team to go out and deal with the results of the fly tipping - whole new team - bigger department - bigger budget - more work - more reasons to put up the rates ........ expanding departments kept busy are seem as a success story.

[fern01]

There are lots of people in the public sector whose job entails just gathering meaningless information and statistic by a certain deadline and summarising it on spreadsheets, working out KPIs unit costs targets and all sorts of other stuff which because the raw data is BS  is all pointless.

It was much simpler before computers which are excellent tools for producing garbage and wasting time to make people look busy

Remember all the people in the background of the BBC news, what were they doing?

I wonder how much time is spent by the Police 'playing' on their computers

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by fern01

[Westward]

Some years ago one of the Sunday papers ran a 2 page spread written by a journo who went to work a few weeks in his local council. It was a set up of course but still eye watering stuff. What I particularly remember was that they automatically overstaffed every department by 20-25% simply to cater for the numbers predicted to be off sick at any given time.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, fern01 said:

There are lots of people in the public sector whose job .........

At the time I retired (3 years ago) - that was also becoming the case in the private sector (certainly in larger companies). 

The large (American) company I worked for just before retirement set me (and every employee) 'SMART' targets. 

Now SMART targets are "Specific", "Measurable", "Achievable", "Relevant" and "Time limited".  One of these (for me - everyone had 10 allocated specific to them) was to achieve a 15% reduction in my work carbon emissions for 12 months.

Sounds reasonable - and sensible - and 'politically correct' and certainly I had no disagreement in principle .......... but;

Was it "Specific" - well - yes it was really ✔︎

Was it "Measurable" - No - there was no mechanism for measuring energy/carbon usage individually or tracking savings to any detailed level ✘

Was it "Achievable" - well - yes it was - except for rules that obverrode SMART - which meant it wasn't ...... because it was not within my domain to control my energy usage (in Company time).  I could not turn on/off my office lights, heating, air conditioning (all centrally done).  I could not turn off my PC at night (Company rules as all updates and virus scanning was done overnight centrally controlled) etc. Had I had control of these it would have been fine ✘

Was it "Relevant" - well - yes it was really - as it is relevant to us all ✔︎

Was it "Time limited" - well - yes it was really in that it was for a 12 month period ✔︎

But - apart from the above - several people were employed in dreaming this up and 'monitoring it' - and it achieved  ......... nothing!

 

[GingerCat]

38 minutes ago, fern01 said:

 

I wonder how much time is spent by the Police 'playing' on their computers

 

None. They know every key stroke made and the reason why you made it or you get sacked . So no games sadly. 

Updating crimes, reviewing intelligence and reports, answering emails from victims  etc then quite a lot. About 20% of the day for patrol and more for cid. Proactive things like surveillance then about 1%. 

I have to say its easier with computers than not and you do accomplish more. Especially analysis and research which is mandatory these days, even for simple things or the cps won't entertain you. 

[clangerman]

there can’t be any bureaucracy with speeding tickets because i just got one within 24hrs the ***** lol

[Gordon R]

Quote

That’s Bolton for you!

He actually went to the one in Bury.😄

[moose man]

5 hours ago, GingerCat said:

I don't doubt a word of it. Changing anything is a nightmare and involves lots of pointless meetings. They will always add a layer on top of what exists but never take one away that's redundant. 

I took over a small niche team and reviewed the processes. Drew a line through about 70% of them and we cracked on. Output increased massively, accountability and legality remained and so did the usual safeguards. Lots of scratching heads and tantrums ensued but ultimately I got my way and it expanded. I even had lawyers review it and they agreed with me.   Hardly breathtaking but an example of the weariness that exists. I think some of it is to do with empires and the only way it appears of being more important is to have more bits of paper I.e. burden than the next person with no agility or resilience in sight. 

I’m living in Spain at the moment , my friend you haven't  begun to see or experience bureaucracy until you have lived a while over here , it is mind boggling ! I couldn’t begin to tell you how bad or mad it is ..every thing and I mean everything revolves around paper and stamps , if your paper isn’t stamped you are going nowhere or doing anything ..! 

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, fern01 said:

There are lots of people in the public sector whose job entails just gathering meaningless information and statistic by a certain deadline and summarising it on spreadsheets, working out KPIs unit costs targets and all sorts of other stuff which because the raw data is BS  is all pointless.

It was much simpler before computers which are excellent tools for producing garbage and wasting time to make people look busy

Remember all the people in the background of the BBC news, what were they doing?

I wonder how much time is spent by the Police 'playing' on their computers

 

When I came out/retired 30yrs ago we just had one computer and that was an 'intelligence' computer where we could view and log information about know criminals/ner do wells.  When we booked on for our shift we had a short briefing on the previous 24hrs by our Sergeant and or Inspector and would be out on the streets in half an hour, sometimes quicker if there was a call.  I believe now officers booking on just sit infront of a screen and view it all with no interaction between the 'team' as we had, where plans could be made to sort some local thief etc etc.   I may be worng but belive that to be true.  The paperwork when I retired was building by the day.

[Westley]

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Just bumped into a friend, who was walking past. He had just visited the local tip to get rid of some interior doors. He was refused access until he provided:-

A copy of his Council Tax bill.

A hard hat.

A hi-viz jacket.

A pair of safety boots.

A pair of gloves.

The World is going mad.

 

You have to make an appointment to visit our local tip  ?

[AVB]

1 hour ago, fern01 said:

There are lots of people in the public sector whose job entails just gathering meaningless information and statistic by a certain deadline and summarising it on spreadsheets, working out KPIs unit costs targets and all sorts of other stuff which because the raw data is BS  is all pointless.

It was much simpler before computers which are excellent tools for producing garbage and wasting time to make people look busy

Remember all the people in the background of the BBC news, what were they doing?

I wonder how much time is spent by the Police 'playing' on their computers

 

That could be true but my experience was, imo, worse than that. What value can there be in needing 12 approval boards? These people contribute nothing to the initiative nor produce any artefacts, but simply review and approve.  I appreciate that papers need to be submitted in advance but why four weeks? And why not before the previous board had approved? As I said I worked for some large Banks, and they could be pretty inefficient at times, but for the kind of initiative I was working on it would have taken four weeks not the 48-78 that I was told to expect for approval. 
 

Does anybody working in the public sector think that this is acceptable and if so why? And it has to change. It just has to. 

[Benthejockey]

I've just recently finished working on a project implemented by 2 separate government bodies, delegated to local conglomerates who form their own private companies. The directors of these companies get paid for their work and then delegate their work down to subordinates who in turn are responsible for a group of workers. The workers are paid piece meal. Never mind the left hand not knowing what the right was doing there were left hands, left feet and left testicles doing completely opposite things to the right! Now that was some beaurocratic nonsense! It will be a miracle if the workers get paid before Xmas.

[Gordon R]

I will admit it was some years ago, but my son worked for the Civil Service for a couple of months after leaving University. He actually worked for a friend of mine, but got the job on merit, via interview, as would anyone else.

He was employed in a group of seven, who mainly did filing and retrieving. When he left, my friend asked him how many staff the job merited, as he was under some pressure to reduce staffing. My son told him that he could do the job (of the seven) by himself. After he left, the staffing reduced to six.

My son is now into computers and earns quite a lot and also owns a couple of businesses, but has never forgotten the over staffing.