Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[welsh1]

30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That's not sensible. 

The nukes are on the playing field, the possibility of use us real. 

Lets not get carried away, the question remains, how far are we prepared to go for Ukraine? 

Do you think Ukraine should stop defending it's borders against an invasion? because of what if's and maybe's
Because that's not going to happen and they are entitled to repel any invading force.

The nukes have always been on the playing field they didn't just appear.

 

[mchughcb]

7 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Did trump get removed at the next elections? or did i miss democracy in action?The people voted him in they also voted him out.


Tell me has putin had any sort of investigation launched against him by the russian parliment (federal assembly)?

Could trump or any of the western leaders get away with this?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/vladimir-putin-passes-law-that-may-keep-him-in-office-until-2036

I'm not a guru on political law, however I do know that Teddy changed the law in the USA so they could only stay two terms. Before that you could be President for life if they kept voting you in. I couldn't give a poop if they stay 10 terms if people want that person to run the country. On a side note Xi is thinking the same way.

 

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

I'm not a guru on political law, however I do know that Teddy changed the law in the USA so they could only stay two terms. Before that you could be President for life if they kept voting you in. I couldn't give a poop if they stay 10 terms if people want that person to run the country. On a side note Xi is thinking the same way.

 

More obfuscation from the original point / question.

With the Putin apologists it’s all about the stretched and worn out ‘what abouts’.

Point out that Trump got ousted in a democratic election and is held accountable to the rule of law and that no such thing troubles Putin and we get what?

Putin has people who upset him or challenge him murdered. Correction, he’s had an awful lot of people murdered.

He has made himself in charge and removed democracy. With that comes no free speech and no free press and no rule of law / fair trial. 

And here comes what? David Kelly, something about the Clintons, the pyramids and probably Kennedy.

Brilliant. 😆

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Depends how you look at it, I'd say a better question is how far are we prepared to go to help ensure the freedom of the western world and for that I think this country and others are prepared to do what it takes. Hence the west's response to Putin. 

It's been proved beyond doubt that Russia does not pose the threat that was alluded to. 

If their military is struggling against Ukraine, what chance would it have against just a handful of NATO countries? 

Again, with some meaningful diplomacy, the whole thing could have been averted. 

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

why argue when three mins is plenty of time to post I told you so in bold type! 

I could think of better things to do in 3 minutes 😂

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Do you think Ukraine should stop defending it's borders against an invasion? because of what if's and maybe's
Because that's not going to happen and they are entitled to repel any invading force.

The nukes have always been on the playing field they didn't just appear.

 

First off, I've never once said Ukraine shouldn't defend itself. 

My argument has always been about how far western involvment goes. Do we want war with Russia? 

Apparently some on here do, and they don't seem too fussed if it goes nuclear. 

Is Ukraine worth it? 

It's a some question. 

[ShootingEgg]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do we want war with Russia

Unfortunately I think the west already is, just that it's not gone past Ukraine... Yet...

[old'un]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It's been proved beyond doubt that Russia does not pose the threat that was alluded to. 

If their military is struggling against Ukraine, what chance would it have against just a handful of NATO countries? 

Again, with some

Things maybe about to change with the appointment of Gen Sergei Surovikin...https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/08/russia-appoints-notorious-general-sergei-surovikin-ukraine

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I could think of better things to do in 3 minutes 😂

We are not interested in what you and Mungler get up to in your Dacha 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Again, with some meaningful diplomacy, the whole thing could have been averted. 

 

I wouldn’t want anyone reading that to imply any fault at all on the recipient of the Russian invasion and aggression.

Yes, this could have all been avoided if Putin hadn’t invaded or had sought out a negotiated conclusion through diplomatic channels.

Mind you, if you are trying to stitch the USSR back together a ‘no thanks’ from your neighbour who does not wish to be added to your patchwork quilt won’t be enough to stop the tanks from rolling in. 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Yes, this could have all been avoided if Putin hadn’t invaded or had sought out a negotiated conclusion through diplomatic channels.

/\ This.  Before the actual invasion - various attempts were made to talk him out of it - and he insisted (if I remember right) that he didn't have any plans to invade.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says

Then various including Roman Abramovich, Macron, the Israeli Prime Minister, Olaf Scholtz (German Chancellor), Gerhard Schroder (former German Chancellor), President Erdogan (Turkey), UN Secretary General, have all tred to broker a peace settlement.

No one had success.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It's been proved beyond doubt that Russia does not pose the threat that was alluded to. 

If their military is struggling against Ukraine, what chance would it have against just a handful of NATO countries? 

Again, with some meaningful diplomacy, the whole thing could have been averted. 

I could think of better things to do in 3 minutes 😂

First off, I've never once said Ukraine shouldn't defend itself. 

My argument has always been about how far western involvment goes. Do we want war with Russia? 

Apparently some on here do, and they don't seem too fussed if it goes nuclear. 

Is Ukraine worth it? 

It's a some question. 

Its far bigger than that. It sends a message that we're not prepared to accept a tyrant rolling over democratic European borders on conquest. 

It also sends a clear message to the likes of North Korea and China incase they get any ideas in the near future. 

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

/\ This.  Before the actual invasion - various attempts were made to talk him out of it - and he insisted (if I remember right) that he didn't have any plans to invade.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says

Then various including Roman Abramovich, Macron, the Israeli Prime Minister, Olaf Scholtz (German Chancellor), Gerhard Schroder (former German Chancellor), President Erdogan (Turkey), UN Secretary General, have all tred to broker a peace settlement.

No one had success.

Spot on. 

Rewulf, genuine question, why are you so quick to defend and excuse Putin, yet so quick to blame anyone who stands up to him? 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

It also sends a clear message to the likes of North Korea and China incase they get any ideas in the near future

NK isn't going to invade anyone, they lack the capability. 

China, well, China is awaiting its time, and when its ready, there isn't a lot we'll be able to do to stop it, as WE will lack the capability. 

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Rewulf, genuine question, why are you so quick to defend and excuse Putin, yet so quick to blame anyone who stands up to him?

Don't believe the hype 😂

I've never defended or excused putin, I'm just not happy with the mainstream version of events. 

The best we can do is say he's mad? Wants to land grab and put the USSR back together? The whole sauron/dark Lord thing where putin is the only one who makes a decision in Russia, has been taken far too literally by too many people. 

It's silly and a distraction. 

What next, Russian soldiers really are subhuman 'orcs'? They're likely no more evil than Ukrainian soldiers, just on the wrong side of history. 

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

NK isn't going to invade anyone, they lack the capability. 

China, well, China is awaiting its time, and when its ready, there isn't a lot we'll be able to do to stop it, as WE will lack the capability. 

Don't believe the hype 😂

I've never defended or excused putin, I'm just not happy with the mainstream version of events. 

The best we can do is say he's mad? Wants to land grab and put the USSR back together? The whole sauron/dark Lord thing where putin is the only one who makes a decision in Russia, has been taken far too literally by too many people. 

It's silly and a distraction. 

What next, Russian soldiers really are subhuman 'orcs'? They're likely no more evil than Ukrainian soldiers, just on the wrong side of history. 

NK might not invade, but they may well start slinging missiles at other countries and China might very well delay a move on Taiwan watching what happened to Russia, so my fist point remains. 

I think I get your point with Putin, our governments in the west have certainly done questionable things to, that have been attempted to be brushed under the carpet. Blair and bushes illegal war on Iraq and the subsequent rise of Isis ect is the first that springs to my mind. The thing is that was then and this is now, just as Blair should stand for war crimes (imo), Putin is every bit as bad, if not worse. 

[ordnance]

Quote

 

Don't believe the hype 😂

I've never defended or excused putin, I'm just not happy with the mainstream version of events. 

 

And do you think the rest of us cant navigate trough the hype just as well as you, as for you not being happy with MSM again most do not take it as gospel, but unlike you we do not go looking and believing even less reliable information from the twilight zone of the internet.  But i suppose we should be thankful we have you to keep us right, as long as you believe that and it keeps you happy.  

Quote

The whole sauron/dark Lord thing where putin is the only one who makes a decision in Russia, has been taken far too literally by too many people. 

Who do you think makes the decisions in Russia ? like invading Ukraine for example. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by ordnance

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

NK might not invade, but they may well start slinging missiles at other countries and China might very well delay a move on Taiwan watching what happened to Russia, so my fist point remains. 

I think I get your point with Putin, our governments in the west have certainly done questionable things to, that have been attempted to be brushed under the carpet. Blair and bushes illegal war on Iraq and the subsequent rise of Isis ect is the first that springs to my mind. The thing is that was then and this is now, just as Blair should stand for war crimes (imo), Putin is every bit as bad, if not worse. 

Trump said the US created ISIS. People coughed in disbelief.  They certainly armed them by handing out weapons to the free Syria army who just passed them on or just changed sides when ISIS controlled the oil fields and was selling cheap oil via truck convoys to Turkey to fund their war. It was the Russians,  particularly putin and lavrov who pointed out the hypocrisy of Turkey,  a US ally and NATO member via the satellite photos at the UN.

To simply say, that was then, this is now throw away line. ISIS is still out there just like Shamima Begum .

 

 

[ditchman]

8 hours ago, old'un said:

Things maybe about to change with the appointment of Gen Sergei Surovikin...https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/08/russia-appoints-notorious-general-sergei-surovikin-ukraine

and what will happen when he gets "the sack"............he is going to be dealing with lads who are being forced to fight..and trying to get them to be killers and brutal............?...bad supply lines poor food ..

[ordnance]

Quote

President Putin accuses Ukraine of “terrorism” after Crimea bridge attack.

You couldn't make it up, Putin accusing Ukraine of terrorism 😂

[mchughcb]

4 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You couldn't make it up, Putin accusing Ukraine of terrorism 😂

If any middle eastern country that the UK has deployed troops into had undercover ops doing the same thing they go out of their way to downplay it as to remain culturally sensitive.

 

[mchughcb]

So who was driving the truck and did they know what they were carrying? 

[Dave-G]

Just now, mchughcb said:

So who was driving the truck and did they know what they were carrying? 

Weren't me.

[henry d]

8 hours ago, mchughcb said:

If any middle eastern country that the UK has deployed troops into had undercover ops doing the same thing they go out of their way to downplay it as to remain culturally sensitive.

 

If, but, what about...

Apples and oranges being compared. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, will Putin escalate sending bombs ? I see kiev took a hit after many months from the last onslaught ??

[Mungler]

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Wants to land grab and put the USSR back together? 

I think you are the only person who can’t see that this is the underlying motivation behind the invasion and war. You refuse to accept it because it 100% makes Russia the un meritorious invading aggressor, which it is.

It’s all so unnecessary, right? And it started with an entirely unnecessary invasion.

 

[old'un]

10 hours ago, ditchman said:

and what will happen when he gets "the sack"............he is going to be dealing with lads who are being forced to fight..and trying to get them to be killers and brutal............?...bad supply lines poor food ..

This guy is ruthless, he’s been given a free hand by Putin to get the job done, I think we will see the same tactics he used in Syria where he bombed civilian areas and reduced them to rubble, leaving little for the resistance to hide and fight from.

This guy will not be wanting to send soldiers back to Putin in body bags, he will hold his troops back and bomb the hell out of the Ukrainians first.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I think you are the only person who can’t see that this is the underlying motivation behind the invasion and war. You refuse to accept it because it 100% makes Russia the un meritorious invading aggressor, which it is.

It’s all so unnecessary, right? And it started with an entirely unnecessary invasion.

 

I doubt I'm the only person 😂

I can certainly see the possibility of a land grab, but to put the deeply unpopular USSR times back into a modern progressive Russia makes no sense. 

What also makes no sense, is why wait 8 years to make your move, 8 years for Ukraine to be become stronger and more closely tied to the EU and NATO, where is the logic in that? 

Give me some kind of explanation besides 'he's mad' or really bad at strategy, because when stuff doesn't add up, there is misdirection or lies at work. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Rewulf said:

What also makes no sense, is why wait 8 years to make your move

In those 8 years - Europe has become MUCH more dependant on Russian energy - and so a whole new bargaining chip/economic weapon became available.  That is part at least of the reason.