Energy Bills

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

is this really the time to cause strikes for more money when millions do not have a choice

If you are looking to get maximum 'leverage', you schedule the strike action for when it causes maximum pain to the widest group of the population - maximum impact. 

The pain felt by the populace doesn't worry the union 'barons' at all.  They are solely out for their members and themselves - with a joint agenda of bringing down the elected Govt and replacing it with a Corbyn style Labour party where they will get greater influence (they sponsor the MPs who are supporters of the hard left) their own way much more easily.

[old man]

The latest saying heard yesterday. 'Having failed at everything, become a Politician.' Never seemed more apt?

[Lloyd90]

23 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

If you are looking to get maximum 'leverage', you schedule the strike action for when it causes maximum pain to the widest group of the population - maximum impact. 

The pain felt by the populace doesn't worry the union 'barons' at all.  They are solely out for their members and themselves - with a joint agenda of bringing down the elected Govt and replacing it with a Corbyn style Labour party where they will get greater influence (they sponsor the MPs who are supporters of the hard left) their own way much more easily.

To be fair, there’s not much point going on strike at a time that would be most convenient for everyone else or when no one would even notice. 

I work for the Government (front line emergency service that never had any furlough etc) and since 2010 - 2020 with the annual pay rises and rate of inflation we saw a real terms pay cut of 22% … 

With recent inflation rises it’s going to easily reduce real time pay by 30% or more from what it was. 
 

Whilst many likes to bash the civil service there’s people in there doing thankless jobs with very little resources at hand, working to keep kids safe and all sorts. 
 

Just how long can it continue? 
 

 

Due to current circumstances, the general public are getting very fed up with the current system. 
 

The “hard” left won’t have to do much, simply offer something other than the current shambles. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just how long can it continue?

The issue isn't just Civil service, public sector, or any particular group.  Inflation is not confined to the UK, but is caused by a variety of circumstances, all loosely linked to shortages of supply compared to demand.

The elephant in the room is energy - and the supply (mainly to Europe) has been dramatically reduced - so Europe is buying elsewhere pushing the prices up.  The rising prices of energy have knock on effects everywhere - because everyone and every industry uses it.

IF everyone whose costs had gone up by say 30% demanded and got a 30% increase in pay/pension etc, then inflation is fuelled and the whole round starts again, because with more money, demand goes up, more energy has to be bought - etc.

The way out of it is by what is widely known as 'austerity' where demand is reduced and comes closer to supply and so prices drop back.  Everyone gets hurt, but arguably - those who "bully hardest" get hurt a bit less, and the weakest (often pensioners, disabled etc.) get hurt most.

Whilst we have huge flares of gas being burned off at the wells - and massive shortages at the factories and homes, the prices will stay high. 

Similarly, whilst one of the biggest food producers is having much if its exports blocked and the food allowed to remain in store gradually deteriorating and blocking storage space for this years grain harvest - food prices will be high and the weakest (those in famine prone countries who are not self sufficient in food) will suffer most.

Europe being at war is at the route of much of the problem - and whilst that goes in it will continue, but a better distribution of energy and less dependence on a single supplier by pipeline will ease the situation gradually (over a few years).  In the meantime - it is going to be belt tightening and put on a extra jersey time for most of us.

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Due to current circumstances, the general public are getting very fed up with the current system. 
 

The “hard” left won’t have to do much, simply offer something other than the current shambles. 

That's the worrying thing, people often think changing the government will solve the problems and it never does.

5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Europe being at war is at the route of much of the problem - and whilst that goes in it will continue, but a better distribution of energy and less dependence on a single supplier by pipeline will ease the situation gradually (over a few years).  In the meantime - it is going to be belt tightening and put on a extra jersey time for most of us.

It really has shown up how bad an idea importing our energy was.

But I don't think it will be long before being told our energy and food bills must stay high to support the Ukraine won't cut it,  I don't buy it and those who apparently will have to choose between heating or eating won't be worrying about anything other than themselves once the cold weather hits.

[Lloyd90]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

IF everyone whose costs had gone up by say 30% demanded and got a 30% increase in pay/pension etc, then inflation is fuelled and the whole round starts again, because with more money, demand goes up, more energy has to be bought - etc.

The way out of it is by what is widely known as 'austerity' where demand is reduced and comes closer to supply and so prices drop back.  Everyone gets hurt, but arguably - those who "bully hardest" get hurt a bit less, and the weakest (often pensioners, disabled etc.) get hurt most.

 

Not everyone’s pay has devalued by 30% though. 

Lots of professionals etc have maintained above inflation pay rises over the years.

My partner has regular achieved rises of 6-8% per year in the private sector (although her company does a lot of work for Government). 

 

Civil service, nurses, Police, etc, have had these below inflation rises for a significant time period now. Well over 10 years. 
 

 

7 minutes ago, Mice! said:

That's the worrying thing, people often think changing the government will solve the problems and it never does.

 

 

No doubt there, but people are being hit hard in their pockets (where it counts) and I predict will vote in a different Government simply because they are so fed up of the current situation. 

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

because they are so fed up of the current situation.

Being fed up with the frying pan is not a good reason to jump into the fire.

[Stonepark]

10 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Not everyone’s pay has devalued by 30% though. 

Lots of professionals etc have maintained above inflation pay rises over the years.

My partner has regular achieved rises of 6-8% per year in the private sector (although her company does a lot of work for Government). 

 

Civil service, nurses, Police, etc, have had these below inflation rises for a significant time period now. Well over 10 years. 
 

 

 

No doubt there, but people are being hit hard in their pockets (where it counts) and I predict will vote in a different Government simply because they are so fed up of the current situation. 

Problem is with the main alternative, the problems would worse.

Real consideration needs to go to giving smaller parties votes to break up the big two monopoly that currently exists, or proportional voting would achieve the same.

[Penelope]

On 28/08/2022 at 09:17, Mungler said:

Anyone see the Top Gear / Grand Tour episode where they went to Detroit? In its heyday it was the most expensive town to live in on the planet because of the prosperity the motoring industry brought to the area. Scroll on to now and it’s a basket case - gone, done and over.

Now, think of the Mongols, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks and even the Spanish at their peak with plundered South American gold. All nothing and nowhere countries and economies.

Our hey day was under the British Empire and the Commonwealth and it’s been down hill ever since.  And we have done it to ourselves - it happens - once basic needs are met it’s then all down hill.

I reckon for my life time, things will never be as good as say 2015. Do I see things getting back to as good as they were in 2015 - no, not in my lifetime.

Very prophetic, sadly.

[Lloyd90]

28 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Being fed up with the frying pan is not a good reason to jump into the fire.

For the people out there who can’t flex for the current situation, who don’t have a car on finance they can give back, who already aren’t going on foreign holidays, who don’t already have expensive iPhones and subscriptions. Who don’t have the extra £500+ a month, it’s simply not there … it appears they are already firmly in the fire. 
 

Then the people who have to give up the above will also be mighty peeved and out for someone to blame. 

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Then the people who have to give up the above will also be mighty peeved and out for someone to blame. 

And that person (or at least the main one responsible whatever 'viewpoint' you take) is not in the UK.  Nor is the pain that is going to be felt solely in the UK.  ALL Europe and the 'Russian bloc' are going to feel financial pain because that is where the energy war will be most felt.  Less so outside these regions in the 1st world (e.g. USA, Canada, South America, Australasia, Middle East etc.), but all of the rest of the 3rd world (Africa predominantly) will feel it too.

There is no doubt it is going to be very hard, but those who genuinely have nothing to cut back/fall back on should be able to get Govt assistance now.  That is what the social security and welfare state were set up to do. 

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

For the people out there who can’t flex for the current situation, who don’t have a car on finance they can give back, who already aren’t going on foreign holidays, who don’t already have expensive iPhones and subscriptions. Who don’t have the extra £500+ a month, it’s simply not there … it appears they are already firmly in the fire. 
 

 

That is my wife and I exactly.

And we are going nowhere near the fire.

Why? Because despite never earning very much, we have never lived hand to mouth and have substantial reserves for the rainy days ahead.

[RyanMc]

It doesn't seem as bad energy bills wise in NI, but its definitely going that way quickly! I made a determined effort to get debt free before 40, now debt free and just over two years left to the target date! 

I work a 2nd p/time job and a full time professional role so do earn a decent wage. I reckon I could cut right back as it sits now with approx. one year of buffer cash if things remain as is. Three bed semi, bought in 2009 at lower market price, paid off (graduate wages at that point) with savings, extra work, bonuses etc, still had a few holidays and a couple of cars. All about keeping an eye on things and cutting back ahead of time to be best placed.

Still worrying especially with a young family of four under ten years old.

How it gets fixed is going to painfull for everyone, but you do see parallels already with 2008, but much more amplified this time around.

[udderlyoffroad]

21 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I said based against other times in history (any other century), I never mentioned compared to other nations. 

The "we've never had it so good" argument is firstly wrong, depending on your chosen metric, and in any case, so what?  We should be aiming to increase standards, not saying how good things were.

Otherwise, sooner or later, this kind of thread invariably descends into 4-Yorkshiremen-ism. 🤣

21 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

However, which nations have vastly superior conditions vs the U.K.? 

How is it measured? 

Pretty much any nation in western Europe, most of the 'eastern' ones*, North America, and you can pretty much choose your metric, respectively.

Our neighbours across the channel have better healthcare outcomes whilst paying less for it.  You have to explain the concept of a waiting list to new arrivals to the UK from these countries.

Let me put it another way; we have reached the stage where we are taxed at Scandinavian levels, but have none of the benefits** i.e. free-to-user childcare, university/college education fully funded...need I go on?

Our dwellings are smaller. We pay more in tax.  We have, deliberately, one of the most complicated tax regimes of any nation.  We have privatised basic infrastructure which holds an effective monopoly.

*They would refer to themselves as central Europe.

**Other than those at the bottom of society of course, or those willing to shamelessly game the system, where the state will seemingly take care of your needs from cradle to grave

21 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

In the USA the cost of everyday things seems a lot higher

Depends on what you measure or what you're looking at.  Regardless of country, some things cost more, some less.  In my experience, Dairy products in the US , especially cheese, tend to cost more, especially in the more desert states - go figure, as they say.  Toiletries, for some reason, are also incredibly expensive in the US.

 

[old man]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The "we've never had it so good" argument is firstly wrong, depending on your chosen metric, and in any case, so what?  We should be aiming to increase standards, not saying how good things were.

Otherwise, sooner or later, this kind of thread invariably descends into 4-Yorkshiremen-ism. 🤣

Pretty much any nation in western Europe, most of the 'eastern' ones*, North America, and you can pretty much choose your metric, respectively.

Our neighbours across the channel have better healthcare outcomes whilst paying less for it.  You have to explain the concept of a waiting list to new arrivals to the UK from these countries.

Let me put it another way; we have reached the stage where we are taxed at Scandinavian levels, but have none of the benefits** i.e. free-to-user childcare, university/college education fully funded...need I go on?

Our dwellings are smaller. We pay more in tax.  We have, deliberately, one of the most complicated tax regimes of any nation.  We have privatised basic infrastructure which holds an effective monopoly.

*They would refer to themselves as central Europe.

**Other than those at the bottom of society of course, or those willing to shamelessly game the system, where the state will seemingly take care of your needs from cradle to grave

Depends on what you measure or what you're looking at.  Regardless of country, some things cost more, some less.  In my experience, Dairy products in the US , especially cheese, tend to cost more, especially in the more desert states - go figure, as they say.  Toiletries, for some reason, are also incredibly expensive in the US.

 

Notably, no Constitution either to give any protection, we live in a politicos playground?

[Lloyd90]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

**Other than those at the bottom of society of course, or those willing to shamelessly game the system, where the state will seemingly take care of your needs from cradle to grave

 

 

So they have it better, apart from those who don‘t have it better? 
 

Those ‘at the bottom of society’ is a sizeable chunk of society, and as this cost of living etc bites more people are being pushed into that bracket. 
 

According to the Guardian, but I have not looked into the figures extensively myself (I’m still on my travels so not getting too interested tbh), U.K. earners of a £80k a year wage pay less taxes than most European countries, the US pay significantly less tax on that same wage but have no NHS. 
 

 

I am interested if we have any recent notes of U.K. tax levels vs the continent. 
 

 

8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

And that person (or at least the main one responsible whatever 'viewpoint' you take) is not in the UK.  Nor is the pain that is going to be felt solely in the UK.  ALL Europe and the 'Russian bloc' are going to feel financial pain because that is where the energy war will be most felt.  Less so outside these regions in the 1st world (e.g. USA, Canada, South America, Australasia, Middle East etc.), but all of the rest of the 3rd world (Africa predominantly) will feel it too.

There is no doubt it is going to be very hard, but those who genuinely have nothing to cut back/fall back on should be able to get Govt assistance now.  That is what the social security and welfare state were set up to do. 

John, 

 

This is one of the posters doing the rounds on Social media. 
 

As I say I’ve not looked into it massively (apologies, I’ve not ‘fact checked’ it) etc… 

But if true it seems we are feeling it a lot worse than most! 
 

 

[markm]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The "we've never had it so good" argument is firstly wrong, depending on your chosen metric, and in any case, so what?  We should be aiming to increase standards, not saying how good things were.

Otherwise, sooner or later, this kind of thread invariably descends into 4-Yorkshiremen-ism. 🤣

Pretty much any nation in western Europe, most of the 'eastern' ones*, North America, and you can pretty much choose your metric, respectively.

Our neighbours across the channel have better healthcare outcomes whilst paying less for it.  You have to explain the concept of a waiting list to new arrivals to the UK from these countries.

Let me put it another way; we have reached the stage where we are taxed at Scandinavian levels, but have none of the benefits** i.e. free-to-user childcare, university/college education fully funded...need I go on?

Our dwellings are smaller. We pay more in tax.  We have, deliberately, one of the most complicated tax regimes of any nation.  We have privatised basic infrastructure which holds an effective monopoly.

*They would refer to themselves as central Europe.

**Other than those at the bottom of society of course, or those willing to shamelessly game the system, where the state will seemingly take care of your needs from cradle to grave

Depends on what you measure or what you're looking at.  Regardless of country, some things cost more, some less.  In my experience, Dairy products in the US , especially cheese, tend to cost more, especially in the more desert states - go figure, as they say.  Toiletries, for some reason, are also incredibly expensive in the US.

 

Having just returned from the USA this week after a month there, I can assure you everything is more expensive over there except car fuel, spirits, tobacco, soft drinks (Pepsi etc) and beer. They are either cheaper or the same price…… if I was to add together how much on these a month (except tobacco) I’d get a shock and is a large part of my ‘play’ money  

 

When we first starting going to the US over 30 years ago, everything was 1/2 the UK in general. Now it’s at least double, getting closer to treble.  Australia is already at least treble, it used to be half. 
 

Public sector workers earn significantly more than the same jobs in the UK and pay less tax. 

[Lloyd90]

2 minutes ago, markm said:

Having just returned from the USA this week after a month there, I can assure you everything is more expensive over there except car fuel, spirits, tobacco, soft drinks (Pepsi etc) and beer. They are either cheaper or the same price…… if I was to add together how much on these a month (except tobacco) I’d get a shock and is a large part of my ‘play’ money  

 

When we first starting going to the US over 30 years ago, everything was 1/2 the UK in general. Now it’s at least double, getting closer to treble.  Australia is already at least treble, it used to be half. 
 

Public sector workers earn significantly more than the same jobs in the UK and pay less tax. 

That’s what we are finding Mark, everyday items, food, meals etc, all much more expensive than the U.K. 

Only things cheaper seem to be fuel as you say. 

 

However the pay for my profession is over 2.5x more in the USA (£30k ish in the U.K. vs $80k here). 
 

Lots of places their public services etc are being paid a lot more than the U.K. 

 

Spoke with nurses who said they regularly earn over $100k (£85k+ U.K. salary). 
 

Saw police forces advertising with pay over $100k for fairly new recruits on forces out on the West Coast. 
 

This is also with much lower taxes. 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

But if true it seems we are feeling it a lot worse than most!

I believe France has capped it's energy prices.  Not sure about Germany, but there is an article here about Europe in general  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61522123. 

The 'where it comes from' is a bit of a 'red herring' because the shortage of gas due to Russia has pushed the world price right up.  Everyone who used to get gas from Russia is now buying it on the world market - and not only does the gas cost a lot, but it has to be liquefied to transport in special tankers then reconverted to gas.

The idea is that the energy retailers are making a fortune is a complete fabrication.  In the UK alone many have gone broke (27 in 2021 alone, see here https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/18/bristol-energy-owner-is-latest-uk-supplier-to-go-bust ) - those that remain are barely breaking even.

The people who are making LOTS of money (on paper mainly) are the oil and gas producers.  Their 'stocks' still in the ground and not yet extracted have risen greatly in value with the world price - but they have not yet made any real money as the oil/gas is still stocks in the ground.

[Jaymo]

We have but it’s kept within reasonable limits by the government. As a result we are paying an extra €1750 in income tax this year. It’s better than having to choose between heating and eating.
 

From one of my French mates. 

[Stonepark]

What goes around, comes around with a big mark up......

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/china-aggressively-reselling-russian-gas-europe

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I see on the news Russia has stopped the gas supplies to Europe ??

[discobob]

I must admit - I lost sleep last night over this as I listened to my youngest online at 3.30am this morning - he lives his life on there - and I reckon he must be taking at least half of our electricity usage a day spending 12 hours - the other lad is more restrained but I bet he is getting on for 20%. I have decided today is the day that I have a serious frank discussion with him (youngest) but thankfully he starts at college next week so he will be down to about 6 hours of usage - I am going to tell him that he needs to cut it to 3 hours - and use an iPad or whatever for his socialising as they take less power than his gaming PC (that admittedly I built for him) and his dual monitors or he gets a part-time job and pays for his usage.

meanwhile I am having arguments with SWMBO over the dishwasher being used - or running bowls of hot water and then letting it go cold...amongst other things

It isn't that it is a problem now - but it could become a problem as time goes on 😞

 

[udderlyoffroad]

12 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

That’s what we are finding Mark, everyday items, food, meals etc, all much more expensive than the U.K. 

Only things cheaper seem to be fuel as you say. 

 

However the pay for my profession is over 2.5x more in the USA (£30k ish in the U.K. vs $80k here). 

One metric of cost of living:

Salary - minus tax, mortgage, bills, food, health insurance, etc = money left over as disposable income.

So, at 2.5x basic salary, despite the higher costs, you'd probably still be better off in the US?  In other words, a higher standard of living.

Norway is astronomically expensive, their taxation is eye-watering, but they still have more disposable income and a better standard of living, by pretty much any metric, than the UK.  Basic cost of comestibles really doesn't tell the full story at all.

 

13 hours ago, markm said:

Having just returned from the USA this week after a month there, I can assure you everything is more expensive over there except car fuel, spirits, tobacco, soft drinks (Pepsi etc) and beer. They are either cheaper or the same price…… if I was to add together how much on these a month (except tobacco) I’d get a shock and is a large part of my ‘play’ money

After so many years of being there, you're avoiding the tourist traps and not shopping in their equivalent of Waitrose (Trader Joe's!).  Also, as you're presumably, on holiday, thus getting through more beer? 😉

 

38 minutes ago, discobob said:

I must admit - I lost sleep last night over this as I listened to my youngest online at 3.30am this morning - he lives his life on there - and I reckon he must be taking at least half of our electricity usage

I'll catch hell for this - but I suggest get a smart meter fitted.  Comes with a display that shows in real-time your actual usage and associated cost per hour.  Then you can talk to your family about who's using what with actual data.

39 minutes ago, discobob said:

meanwhile I am having arguments with SWMBO over the dishwasher being used

Incidentally, dishwashers use less energy and water than hand washing up by hand.  It's just that if your water is heated by gas, (which used to be) 1/4 the price of electricity, unit for unit...

 

[discobob]

13 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'll catch hell for this - but I suggest get a smart meter fitted.  Comes with a display that shows in real-time your actual usage and associated cost per hour.  Then you can talk to your family about who's using what with actual data.

Funny enough I just had a phone call 5 minutes ago but I am looking at getting Solar and batteries and make that switch at that time as well - moving onto another provider - that way if there are issues I can scream and shout at the one responsible for it rather than having it working, switching, and then it doesn't work.

Meanwhile I have smart plugs with power monitoring....

13 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Incidentally, dishwashers use less energy and water than hand washing up by hand.  It's just that if your water is heated by gas, (which used to be) 1/4 the price of electricity, unit for unit...

Our storage boiler is located not too far away - half a bowl of hot water can do most washes - so if you have to run hot water to wash pans - might as well do washing rather than running a dishwasher - on the power monitoring it is anything from just under a KW to 1.8kw a day - on top of generally running one or two bowls of hot water a day....