Middle class housing crisis

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Working in an emergency team, we are currently seeing lots more people with housing issues that previously we wouldn’t have seen. 
 

Historically we would pretty much solely deal with women (we do cover men also if needed) fleeing domestic violence… people who were vulnerable with a crisis … people/families who were victims of natural disaster etc. 

 

We would usually house people who are classed as an “priority need” out of hours until the daytime housing team can give them a proper full assessment. 
 

Unfortunately we are seeing an increase in cases like this highlighted by the BBC:  

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-63694797

 

It’s interesting that the woman’s view is that she is going to end up homeless… entirely through no fault of her own. 
 

Bristol rents / house prices have gone up significantly … as they have in lots of other areas. 
 

A nurse with her likely level of experience should be on around £33k + OOH enhancements on top … plus whatever her husband earns. 
 

I just wondered what the wider view is? 
 

Is it entirely her own fault? 
 

Is it not her fault in anyway? 
 

Should she have not had 4 kids by choice? 
 

Should she have to face reality and move somewhere where housing is more affordable? Not everyone gets to live in a major city. 
 

I imagine with 4 kids to feed, house, cloth and entertain they do spend all of their monthly income … but then is that their own fault for having 4 kids when they weren’t even home owners? 
 

Seems a tough position … in the past we wouldn’t see so much of an issue … I know plenty of people similar to her … they’d moan about not getting on the property ladder but would at least be able to afford the rent somewhere. 

I think in many ways it's not. 

Large corporations usually carry large risk when setting up businesses, but with that comes large rewards. When the little people take a salaried job and want nothing more than the simple things in life I.e to buy a house where they were born and have a stable job and family, it should be attainable. What's happening over the last few decades is there has become a huge devide between the haves and have nots, with hard working people no longer able to expect to own a house or have a family. I think its getting to a point claiming benefits will provide a better quality of life than going to work. 

[discobob]

16 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think its getting to a point claiming benefits will provide a better quality of life than going to work. 

And then UBI will be rolled out

[Scully]

5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Working in an emergency team, we are currently seeing lots more people with housing issues that previously we wouldn’t have seen. 
 

Historically we would pretty much solely deal with women (we do cover men also if needed) fleeing domestic violence… people who were vulnerable with a crisis … people/families who were victims of natural disaster etc. 

 

We would usually house people who are classed as an “priority need” out of hours until the daytime housing team can give them a proper full assessment. 
 

Unfortunately we are seeing an increase in cases like this highlighted by the BBC:  

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-63694797

 

It’s interesting that the woman’s view is that she is going to end up homeless… entirely through no fault of her own. 
 

Bristol rents / house prices have gone up significantly … as they have in lots of other areas. 
 

A nurse with her likely level of experience should be on around £33k + OOH enhancements on top … plus whatever her husband earns. 
 

I just wondered what the wider view is? 
 

Is it entirely her own fault? 
 

Is it not her fault in anyway? 
 

Should she have not had 4 kids by choice? 
 

Should she have to face reality and move somewhere where housing is more affordable? Not everyone gets to live in a major city. 
 

I imagine with 4 kids to feed, house, cloth and entertain they do spend all of their monthly income … but then is that their own fault for having 4 kids when they weren’t even home owners? 
 

Seems a tough position … in the past we wouldn’t see so much of an issue … I know plenty of people similar to her … they’d moan about not getting on the property ladder but would at least be able to afford the rent somewhere. 

I haven’t read the rest of this thread, and there’s sparse info’ to go on to make an informed judgement. 
I know you say what salary she SHOULD be on, but even if she’s on 25k and her husband is in similar, that’s a joint income of 50k. 
Do they have large debt? Do they run two cars on lease or HP? Is the house they rent a big house in a desirable area? I’m assuming it’s at least a three bedroomed house with a household of six, but there again they could be sleeping two to a bed? How many holidays a year do they have? 
I know kids are expensive, very expensive, but there isn’t really a lot of info’ to go on. 
I’ve heard of a nurse on 45k and a copper on 30 odd k, both of whom claim they need to use food banks. It’s dead easy to criticise, but without any detailed circumstances it’s a no go. 
Anyone recall that lady with a virtual tribe of kids for whom the local council knocked through to join two houses together? She then claimed there wasn’t enough money to feed the pony or something like that! There was enough info’ there to form rock solid opinions, and many did! 🙂

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

Anyone recall that lady with a virtual tribe of kids for whom the local council knocked through to join two houses together? She then claimed there wasn’t enough money to feed the pony or something like that!

Thats (or at least a very similar also involving a pony one is) about 5 miles from me!  And yes, I do remember, though all has gone quiet since.

[MirokuMK70]

Irresponsible having 4 kids if not in a stable enough financial position to house and provide for them. And that includes planning for the unforseen...

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, MirokuMK70 said:

Irresponsible having 4 kids if not in a stable enough financial position to house and provide for them. And that includes planning for the unforseen...

Everyone should have a crystal ball. 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Everyone should have a crystal ball. 

This. 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, discobob said:

And then UBI will be rolled out

Possibly so. The people will own nothing and be happy!

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Everyone should have a crystal ball. 

Quite. 

[Rupert]

Without sitting down with the historic bank statements and studying lifestyle it is impossible to make a fact based  judgement, lots of speculation here and there. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Rupert

[Mungler]

I saw the Panorama documentary.

That midwife was living in a large semi (I’d guess 4 bedrooms) and she said she had 2 adult children living at home.

1st question is what do they contribute?

Next they said she had a £350k interest only mortgage that was on a tracker rate. 

2nd question should she take responsibility for not having a repayment mortgage or a repayment plan? There was always going to be a day of reckoning right?

The house she was in, they didn’t say what the sale price was. It was tidy and inside the M25 and I’d guess it booked at £600k, worst case not a penny under £500k. 

3rd question could she not get a flat with her earning potential and a repayment mortgage on the net proceeds of sale being somewhere between £150k and £250k?

She looked like she was over 55 to me. She was 2 decades into NHS service and will have a pension which she could unlock? 

 

I felt sorry for the renters in Bristol but the distance between S21 notice being served and the landlord physically getting possession is more like 6 to 9 months.

Also they had 2 incomes and had banged out 4 kids whilst the whole time in rented. 

I am so pragmatic it hurts. I would have liked more kids than I have but both the wife and I were aware of our financial and time limitations at the time we were popping them out. I digress.

Anyhoos, there is a pervading detachment of responsibility and it always ends with someone saying the government should do x, y and z to solve the problem. Waiting on the government or your god to solve your problems is fools game. 

[MirokuMK70]

24 minutes ago, Mungler said:

am so pragmatic it hurts. I would have liked more kids than I have but both the wife and I were aware of our financial and time limitations at the time we were popping them out. I digress.

This. Due to the last financial crisis, by the time we were in a stable enough financial position to start a family we were in our late 30s. We only have one child - due to a subsequent health issue. We would ideally have liked another... but hey ho and i have no fear of my daughter ever becoming homeless because i over reached myself.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

there is a pervading detachment of responsibility and it always ends with someone saying the government should do x, y and z to solve the problem. Waiting on the government or your god to solve your problems is fools game. 

Yes it certainly is.  

[1Ab]

I am currently caught up in this housing mess. I have saved money since I was 16 and have a considerable sum saved up more than 10% deposit on a 3 bed house however salaries have been stagnant for the last 10 years so the loan value I can get as a single bread winner means I cannot get a mortgage to cover the purchase of a house. 

All I can get is a small flat and this is not feasible with a family of 5. 

I have made peace with the fact that I will probably never buy a house and that I will pay the silly rent landlords ask these days. 

In terms of offsetting the cost of rent with not having to do maintenance it's a double edged sword. The landlord never looses, from experience I have learned if I dont raise maintenance issues  the landlords put up the rent in small increments the second you start asking them to do maintenance they increase the rent by allot they make their money back.

The bank tells me they think I can't afford a 750 a month mortgage. Yet I have been paying 1000 plus rent for the last 5 years. What can you do.

I think the only way to solve this issue would be to get the government to instate a rental cap. 

 

[Jaymo]

21 minutes ago, 1Ab said:

I am currently caught up in this housing mess. I have saved money since I was 16 and have a considerable sum saved up more than 10% deposit on a 3 bed house however salaries have been stagnant for the last 10 years so the loan value I can get as a single bread winner means I cannot get a mortgage to cover the purchase of a house. 

All I can get is a small flat and this is not feasible with a family of 5. 

I have made peace with the fact that I will probably never buy a house and that I will pay the silly rent landlords ask these days. 

In terms of offsetting the cost of rent with not having to do maintenance it's a double edged sword. The landlord never looses, from experience I have learned if I dont raise maintenance issues  the landlords put up the rent in small increments the second you start asking them to do maintenance they increase the rent by allot they make their money back.

The bank tells me they think I can't afford a 750 a month mortgage. Yet I have been paying 1000 plus rent for the last 5 years. What can you do.

I think the only way to solve this issue would be to get the government to instate a rental cap. 

 

It’s not as simple as to the fact that your capable of paying a grand now, it’s their stress testing methods to cover potential large interest rate rises. 
 

No point in lending if in twelve months your house is being repossessed to be sold and not recover the debt. 
 

[1Ab]

20 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

It’s not as simple as to the fact that your capable of paying a grand now, it’s their stress testing methods to cover potential large interest rate rises. 
 

No point in lending if in twelve months your house is being repossessed to be sold and not recover the debt. 
 

Yes I am well aware of that, I am still in more or less the same shoes renting. My landlord increases my rent every term to match inflation. I literally get a letter from my landlord stating inflation has risen by X amount and therefore the rent will increase accordingly if you don't like it you have 2 months to vacate or you will be evicted. 

I am expecting a big rental rise soon.

[ShootingEgg]

10 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Private sector is always about profit, not about ensuring a long term home for a person or family

Although I agree with This statement, I rent out a house and for the last ten years I never increased the rent, It paid the mortgage and gave the account a couple hundred a month incase of any works needing doing. It also let the tenants to save and now buy their own place.

And yes there are greedy landlords out there, there are people like me who don't take the pee. But if I'd keep the rent low now with new trnants, the tax man will say I'm giving the tenant a benefit in kind and we both get bent over .. there are also Tennant's who rip houses to pieces and then the landlord has to throw alot of money back in to fix it..

 

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, 1Ab said:

I am currently caught up in this housing mess. I have saved money since I was 16 and have a considerable sum saved up more than 10% deposit on a 3 bed house however salaries have been stagnant for the last 10 years so the loan value I can get as a single bread winner means I cannot get a mortgage to cover the purchase of a house. 

All I can get is a small flat and this is not feasible with a family of 5. 

I have made peace with the fact that I will probably never buy a house and that I will pay the silly rent landlords ask these days. 

In terms of offsetting the cost of rent with not having to do maintenance it's a double edged sword. The landlord never looses, from experience I have learned if I dont raise maintenance issues  the landlords put up the rent in small increments the second you start asking them to do maintenance they increase the rent by allot they make their money back.

The bank tells me they think I can't afford a 750 a month mortgage. Yet I have been paying 1000 plus rent for the last 5 years. What can you do.

I think the only way to solve this issue would be to get the government to instate a rental cap. 

 

The system is broken and only works for the wealthiest in society. I often wonder what the UK will be like in a couple of hundred years from now and how the people then will look back on us. 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Also they had 2 incomes and had banged out 4 kids whilst the whole time in rented. 

I am so pragmatic it hurts. I would have liked more kids than I have but both the wife and I were aware of our financial and time limitations at the time we were popping them out. I digress.

Anyhoos, there is a pervading detachment of responsibility and it always ends with someone saying the government should do x, y and z to solve the problem. Waiting on the government or your god to solve your problems is fools game. 

I'm sure everyone who has kids would like 3 or 4, but I'm another who chose to have two,  the time needed, extra money for everything means your likely to struggle or have to go without things.

The idea of someone having 4 kids, having two incomes then saying they can't pay the rent is ridiculous,  but then there's next to no information on the link.

The other thing is why are they renting? Might be a good reason but don't most people who work try and get on the property ladder as early as possible?

I can understand someone starting out now is likely to struggle,  we've just watched Location,  Location..... and the prices are just stupid, but they weren't 20 odd years ago.

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Everyone should have a crystal ball. 

Everyone should be realistic. 

 

[team tractor]

I’m a neutral zone on this .

 

ive been through two splits involving kids . I’ve a step daughter I call my own and a son  from the first . 6 years on and she ran off for another bloke .

Then I got married and she had no children so we had 2 . An affair after 9 years at her work place left me with 4 children ( 3 biological) and paying maintenance twice over .

Now I’ve met my new partner who lives with me . She has 2 sons . She’s moved in with me in my house so we split the bills. 
 

you can’t predict the future . 

neither of us smoke or drink . I budget £50 a month on shooting inc all ammo and our duck shoot  on average. We both have cars even if mines a £1500 terios ( it’s a beast😂) 

I live in a house on an estate that’s not the greatest but it’s a cheap life style and mine in ten years time . We don’t have holidays abroad as the kids are just as happy in Devon camping . 

we claim nothing /not a penny . We don’t live fancy life styles and we both work full time .

ive mates who have had businesses collapse through no fault of there own and have lost everything. It’s just life sometimes. 
 

being brutally honest , if you waited until you can afford kids I know most would never have them plus after 2 kids it’s no real difference to have 3 financially. 
My plan was 2 kids but I had to remember I wasn’t the only one in the relationship. My exs won’t have anymore children and neither will my partners ex . 

I’ve had a vasectomy now 😂

Edited November 23, 2022 by team tractor

[team tractor]

2 hours ago, 1Ab said:

I am currently caught up in this housing mess. I have saved money since I was 16 and have a considerable sum saved up more than 10% deposit on a 3 bed house however salaries have been stagnant for the last 10 years so the loan value I can get as a single bread winner means I cannot get a mortgage to cover the purchase of a house. 

All I can get is a small flat and this is not feasible with a family of 5. 

I have made peace with the fact that I will probably never buy a house and that I will pay the silly rent landlords ask these days. 

In terms of offsetting the cost of rent with not having to do maintenance it's a double edged sword. The landlord never looses, from experience I have learned if I dont raise maintenance issues  the landlords put up the rent in small increments the second you start asking them to do maintenance they increase the rent by allot they make their money back.

The bank tells me they think I can't afford a 750 a month mortgage. Yet I have been paying 1000 plus rent for the last 5 years. What can you do.

I think the only way to solve this issue would be to get the government to instate a rental cap. 

 

In my street I pay £600 a month mortgage for a 4 bed but the neighbour pays almost £900 in rent for a 3 bed . It’s silly but I can also so the landlords in it to make money .

ive never really understood it but on industrial units it’s cheaper to rent than buy  

[oowee]

8 hours ago, team tractor said:

I’m a neutral zone on this .

 

ive been through two splits involving kids . I’ve a step daughter I call my own and a son  from the first . 6 years on and she ran off for another bloke .

Then I got married and she had no children so we had 2 . An affair after 9 years at her work place left me with 4 children ( 3 biological) and paying maintenance twice over .

Now I’ve met my new partner who lives with me . She has 2 sons . She’s moved in with me in my house so we split the bills. 
 

you can’t predict the future . 

neither of us smoke or drink . I budget £50 a month on shooting inc all ammo and our duck shoot  on average. We both have cars even if mines a £1500 terios ( it’s a beast😂) 

I live in a house on an estate that’s not the greatest but it’s a cheap life style and mine in ten years time . We don’t have holidays abroad as the kids are just as happy in Devon camping . 

we claim nothing /not a penny . We don’t live fancy life styles and we both work full time .

ive mates who have had businesses collapse through no fault of there own and have lost everything. It’s just life sometimes. 
 

being brutally honest , if you waited until you can afford kids I know most would never have them plus after 2 kids it’s no real difference to have 3 financially. 
My plan was 2 kids but I had to remember I wasn’t the only one in the relationship. My exs won’t have anymore children and neither will my partners ex . 

I’ve had a vasectomy now 😂

A common sense approach. No one has a crystal ball.

 

Nimby example that blocks lower prices.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63733149

[Mungler]

15 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

The system is broken and only works for the wealthiest in society.

Not so.

If you look at the Ugandan Indians that Idi Amin turfed out on 90 days notice in the 70's most arrived here with the clothes on their back but took advantage of a free education system for their kids and made the sacrifice to work unsociable hours and do the jobs no one else wanted to do in order to make money. As a group they were all extremely successful and their kids are now doctors and surgeons.

More recently we used to employ a Bulgarian cleaner. You have never seen anyone work like her - headphones on and that was her off like the Duracell bunny for 4 hours. She said she left Bulgaria for a better life - she was a cleaner and her husband was an odd job builder type. Both her kids passed the 11+ and went to Grammar school. Her commentary was that the English were lazy and English children grew up lazy. She said that one of her kids was finding it difficult to make friends as school (a Grammar school ranked 14th in the whole Country) and her response was "my children go to school to learn, not to make friends or enjoy themselves, and that is so my children don't grow up to be a cleaner or a handy man."

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Not so.

If you look at the Ugandan Indians that Idi Amin turfed out on 90 days notice in the 70's most arrived here with the clothes on their back but took advantage of a free education system for their kids and made the sacrifice to work unsociable hours and do the jobs no one else wanted to do in order to make money. As a group they were all extremely successful and their kids are now doctors and surgeons.

More recently we used to employ a Bulgarian cleaner. You have never seen anyone work like her - headphones on and that was her off like the Duracell bunny for 4 hours. She said she left Bulgaria for a better life - she was a cleaner and her husband was an odd job builder type. Both her kids passed the 11+ and went to Grammar school. Her commentary was that the English were lazy and English children grew up lazy. She said that one of her kids was finding it difficult to make friends as school (a Grammar school ranked 14th in the whole Country) and her response was "my children go to school to learn, not to make friends or enjoy themselves, and that is so my children don't grow up to be a cleaner or a handy man."

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

Spot on. 

[Vince Green]

On 23/11/2022 at 10:54, old'un said:

just looked at the rent for some semis in the Bristol area and as you say the rents are high, £1.5k-£2k per month will get you a 3 bed semi

You would be lucky to get a small 1 bed flat for that in London 

[amateur]

21 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You would be lucky to get a small 1 bed flat for that in London 

Oh, you can get a nice 3-bed semi within 9 miles of Charing Cross for £1500pcm