New cartridge with both 7 and 8 shot - Barbury

[HantsRob]

From their FB:

Quote

Barbury Gunroom
12 June at 15:32
A UK shooting industry first? 
Barbury gunroom has been developing a premium clay competition shell over the last couple of months with the team @hullcartridgecompany and here they are, hot off the loading machine!
Plastic wad with mixed 7 and 8 shot and Hulls tried and tested Pro One ballistics & The patterns are dense and the 7 shot provides that little more clout at longer ranges while the 8 shot fills the pattern closer in

Source: https://www.facebook.com/people/Barbury-Gunroom/100064324441829/

As it's plaswad you aren't allowed to use it on site unless part of a competition, which is a shame as you can't try a box on practice and have to commit to only shooting on a comp (slight oversight maybe? Shame they don't have a disclaimer that if it's their own brand and more profit % that it can be used outside of comps?)

I did overhear one of the gunroom guys describe it to someone prominent in the trade as "it's number 7 shot surrounded by number 8", although I don't know how they'd achieve that in mass loading! I quite like the green and gold, and if you visit they have a plastic cup with the shot in it so they can show you how in the cup the smaller falls to the bottom. I am not sure how that helps in any way.....

Around £350 a thou I believe

Any thoughts on the mixed 7 and 8? I am guessing this has been done before, to give different mass/size for a "better kill", and if so why aren't more doing it? I can only think either they're doing something amazing, or something mediocre as otherwise it would be done by others. No negativity, one comment seems to like the idea:
 

Quote

The good old days, Winchester winners used 7.5 to 9 shot and what a shell. Got to be good. FairPlay @Barbury. Thinking out the box.

 

[London Best]

B.S.

[wymberley]

What, pray tell, was wrong with simply using 7&1/2 shot? The mind boggles. However, it seems there’s a story that Hull have grasped the nettle and are working flat out to load a new grouse cartridge ready for the 12th. These in the main are 6&1/2 shot with  some 8s in case a snipe gets between the gun and the grouse.

[rbrowning2]

April fool’s day come early 😂😂 or did Hull spill a bag of 7 and 8 shot and came up with this idea to get shot of the mixed shot.

[Pushandpull]

I recall that these mixtures were marketed as "duplex" loads at one time, by one of the US brands. Does anyone know if this was the case.

[rovercoupe]

When dropping shot for clays I cannot be bothered to sort it as long as it’s size 6 all the way to scraggy bits of dust and I still was just as bad a shot as with premium bought cartridges.  
 

just another way of sticking the price up 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It is CERTAINLY NOT a new idea, has been tried over the years and never gets anywhere because it is NOT needed!

 

It has also been tried with large and small shot combined, look up Duplex Shotgun Cartridges.

2 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

I recall that these mixtures were marketed as "duplex" loads at one time, by one of the US brands. Does anyone know if this was the case.

Yes!

[marsh man]

I think the Russians with the well known Baikal cartridges were the pioneers with the multi size shot in there cartridges , what ever size shot you wanted you got it along with many other sizes all in the same cartridge , the only thing they didn't do at the time was to put multi size shot on the box , but who really cared , they were cheap and could bring down everything that was on the shooting list .😄

Back to the thread , as one member rightly said , why not use a box of 7 1/2 size shot for the same results ?

[Ultrastu]

I guess the perceived  advantage would be to increase the pattern density with the inclusion of the smaller shot size but increase the front to back shot string length by having a larger /higher bc pellet also . Creating a cloud that is longer front to back. 

This up to a point can be useful  with close range targets  but can be  a hindrance for the longer stuff. 

Really can't see any point in mixing no 7 and 8 maybe no5 and 7.5 together ,  I suppose they could be useful for a one cart kills all idea .so the no5 for crows and pheasant  and the 7.5 for  pigeons and clays .

sounds like a jack of all trades master of non to me .

Edited June 29, 2023 by Ultrastu

[TOPGUN749]

44 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I guess the perceived  advantage would be to increase the pattern density with the inclusion of the smaller shot size but increase the front to back shot string length by having a larger /higher bc pellet also . Creating a cloud that is longer front to back. 

This up to a point can be useful  with close range targets  but can be  a hindrance for the longer stuff. 

Really can see any point in mixing no 7 and 8 maybe no5 and 7.5 together ,  I suppose they could be useful for a one cart kills all idea .so the no5 for crows and pheasant  and the 7.5 for  pigeons and clays .

sounds like a jack of all trades master of non to me .

When I used to load my own cartridges 40+ years ago I had great success with mixed pellet sizes,I would load 32 grams for game with equal mix of 5,6,7, and for clays 7,8,9. I think it creates a longer shot string and bigger shot arriving slightly before the smaller stuff!

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, Pushandpull said:

I recall that these mixtures were marketed as "duplex" loads at one time, by one of the US brands. Does anyone know if this was the case.

Yes. For wildfowl with, I think BB and American #4 or somesuch. Remington did them. Again I can't see the point. The logic might make sense but of course can you be sure that that BB is going to be the one that strikes the goose where you want it to strike it? Here's a link:

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/remington-multirange-duplex-shotgun-shells/8445

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/remington-duplex-ammo.470031/

Edited June 29, 2023 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

It’s B.S. designed to sell more cartridges to gullible shooters curious to see if it makes them shoot better.

[HantsRob]

15 hours ago, rovercoupe said:

just another way of sticking the price up 

More margin I am sure!

16 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

April fool’s day come early 😂😂 or did Hull spill a bag of 7 and 8 shot and came up with this idea to get shot of the mixed shot.

Probs more to sell their pro one plaswad? Also takes some trade away from Eley that seems to do most of the rebranding work in the UK maybe? £350 for a "store branded" is defo premium re-branding.

13 hours ago, marsh man said:

Back to the thread , as one member rightly said , why not use a box of 7 1/2 size shot for the same results ?

I think as others have said above, alluding to shot string, possibly more spread, more kills etc. I will ask this Saturday if I remember and ask them to "sell it to me".

Caesar Guerini comp there this weekend also, they had a LOT of stock on weds eve, so lets see how much sells by Saturday lunchtime!

1 hour ago, London Best said:

It’s B.S. designed to sell more cartridges to gullible shooters curious to see if it makes them shoot better.

Snake oil sells. 

But then if it helps a shooter being psychosomatic'ly good, then is it wrong? It just amused me you can't practice with it before you shoot it on site, as plaswad is for comps only.

[Wilts#Dave]

13 hours ago, HantsRob said:

More margin I am sure!

Probs more to sell their pro one plaswad? Also takes some trade away from Eley that seems to do most of the rebranding work in the UK maybe? £350 for a "store branded" is defo premium re-branding.

I think as others have said above, alluding to shot string, possibly more spread, more kills etc. I will ask this Saturday if I remember and ask them to "sell it to me".

Caesar Guerini comp there this weekend also, they had a LOT of stock on weds eve, so lets see how much sells by Saturday lunchtime!

Snake oil sells. 

But then if it helps a shooter being psychosomatic'ly good, then is it wrong? It just amused me you can't practice with it before you shoot it on site, as plaswad is for comps only.

Almost as bad as Mendip shooting ground that have managed to enforce only being able to use the cartridges that they sell on the ground (due noise blah blah)…..talk about doubling the profits! Not that I’ve been there for years, and very rarely shoot clays now but always annoyed me that I couldn’t take the shells with me I had at home I’d bought in bulk that I liked using! 
To the point in question, pure marketing gimmick I’d say that will make them a few quid purely through shooters curiosity to trying anything a bit different regardless of cost  😂

Edited June 30, 2023 by Wilts#Dave

[Fellside]

15 hours ago, London Best said:

It’s B.S. designed to sell more cartridges to gullible shooters curious to see if it makes them shoot better.

Agreed. 

[Stonepark]

Duplex cartridges were supposedly developed to kill geese and duck with the same cartridge within the lethal range of the smaller (duck) pellet, not extend the range of the cartridge.

However it is generally predicated on poor science.

If you choose the correct pellet size for a cartridge loading where energy fails as or just after the pattern fails you will be operating most efficiently for any giving loading.

Duplexing is merely an attempt to replicate the above efficiency with differing pellet sizes but cannot be more effective, in fact depending on the balance of pellets is often worse.

At under the lethal range of the smaller pellet, you have no advantage over the efficient loading pellets as you have similar if not identical numbers of pellets as the efficent cartridge, with larger pellets simply retaining more energy and the smaller pellets running out of energy before the efficent loading pellets. (Energy failing before pattern)

Past the lethal distance of the smaller pellets (which is less than the efficent loading pellets), the larger pellet pattern is less than the efficent loading, so is ineffective due to lack of pellets, even though the pellets individually may still retain more energy. (Pattern fails before energy)

 

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Duplex cartridges were supposedly developed to kill geese and duck with the same cartridge within the lethal range of the smaller (duck) pellet, not extend the range of the cartridge.

However it is generally predicated on poor science.

If you choose the correct pellet size for a cartridge loading where energy fails as or just after the pattern fails you will be operating most efficiently for any giving loading.

Duplexing is merely an attempt to replicate the above efficiency with differing pellet sizes but cannot be more effective, in fact depending on the balance of pellets is often worse.

At under the lethal range of the smaller pellet, you have no advantage over the efficient loading pellets as you have similar if not identical numbers of pellets as the efficent cartridge, with larger pellets simply retaining more energy and the smaller pellets running out of energy before the efficent loading pellets. (Energy failing before pattern)

Past the lethal distance of the smaller pellets (which is less than the efficent loading pellets), the larger pellet pattern is less than the efficent loading, so is ineffective due to lack of pellets, even though the pellets individually may still retain more energy. (Pattern fails before energy)

 

 

^^^^^ This.

Arguably this was known before Mr Bontoft had his brainwave some 75 years ago; so what's going on? Can only imagine that the two organisations hope to make a killing and then slide out of it because of the potential or active lead ban before the eggy face paint.

[Fellside]

It wasn’t long ago when cartridge makers boasted about even pellet sizes - having been sorted / riddled 5 times etc……

Efficient patterns etc. etc…..?!

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Duplex cartridges were supposedly developed to kill geese and duck with the same cartridge within the lethal range of the smaller (duck) pellet, not extend the range of the cartridge.

However it is generally predicated on poor science.

If you choose the correct pellet size for a cartridge loading where energy fails as or just after the pattern fails you will be operating most efficiently for any giving loading.

Duplexing is merely an attempt to replicate the above efficiency with differing pellet sizes but cannot be more effective, in fact depending on the balance of pellets is often worse.

At under the lethal range of the smaller pellet, you have no advantage over the efficient loading pellets as you have similar if not identical numbers of pellets as the efficent cartridge, with larger pellets simply retaining more energy and the smaller pellets running out of energy before the efficent loading pellets. (Energy failing before pattern)

Past the lethal distance of the smaller pellets (which is less than the efficent loading pellets), the larger pellet pattern is less than the efficent loading, so is ineffective due to lack of pellets, even though the pellets individually may still retain more energy. (Pattern fails before energy)

 

 

I understand the concept behind duplex and the shortfall with different sizes of lead 

however 

Duplex using steel as the filler and TSS or HW material as a main load is possibly the way forward for a usable longer range than steel alone 

cost effective probably not 

just my thought in it 👍

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

I understand the concept behind duplex and the shortfall with different sizes of lead 

however 

Duplex using steel as the filler and TSS or HW material as a main load is possibly the way forward for a usable longer range than steel alone 

cost effective probably not 

just my thought in it 👍

 

Duplex does not extend range, you need all the pellets for a pattern in TSS or lead or steel.

 

[Old farrier]

59 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

Duplex does not extend range, you need all the pellets for a pattern in TSS or lead or steel.

 

Ok thanks for the clarification 😊👍

[Smokersmith]

Baikal we’re doing this for years…