Heat pumps

[Ricko]

Anybody had a heat pump installed?

Pros and cons?

What sort of overall price for installation (I know this is difficult depending on house size)

Any advice or thoughts welcome.

[Weihrauch17]

Don't bother unless you have to, why would you?

[Newbie to this]

Start needlessly storing hot water again. No thanks.

[JohnfromUK]

If you are replacing gas remember this.

A heat pump will give you around 2.5 to 3KW of 'heat' for every 1 KW of electricity.

A modern gas boiler will give you around 0.9 KW of heat for every 1 KW of gas.

So - IF you need 50 KWh of heat into your house a day - a heat pump will need around 17 to 20 KWh of electricity - or a gas boiler around 55 KWh of gas.

Currently 17 KWh of electricity will cost around £5 and 55 KWh of gas will cost around £4.20.

So a heatpump is more expensive to run (because a KWh of electricity is so much more than a KWh of gas).

A heatpump is also quite likely to need major plumbing changes (bigger radiators and bigger pipes) in an existing system designed for gas.

Basically - take proper expert advice (not a salesman) - as it is not likely to make a saving.

However - if you are now using full price electricity to heat, it may be a better picture on running coosts, but will need all radiators etc new, so still an expensive installation.

Edited September 22, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[williamwansbeck]

Bad maths example,electric cost 3 x gas and the power for heat pump compressor is electric? may get a discount until so many are tied with heat pumps and like every thing else the discount will disappear

this i mean for heat pump systems not Johnfrom uk@ calculations

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by williamwansbeck

[ditchman]

i would only have a heat pump installed if the house was designed to accept it.and solar panels were installed as well..........putting a heat pump into a victorian detatched house i dont think will work

Edited September 22, 2023 by ditchman

[Scully]

9 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i would only have a heat pump installed if the house was designed to accept it.and solar panels were installed as well..........putting a heat pump into a victorian detatched house i dont think will work

This. Not with Victorian insulation anyhow. 

[Yellow Bear]

The thing to bear in mind is with air source  that the MAX temperature it will produce is circa 50c  (ground source is slightly better but not much) and domestic hot water needs to be stored at circa 60 c so you will have to boost the dhw temperature. It also has a slow heat up so run times will be longer.  also the plant becomes less efficient as outside temperature falls.

As  a hvac specialist until retirement I would personally avoid heat pumps unless your home has excellent insulation and oversized heat emitters, or is specifically designed for heat pump.

[Minky]

I watched a program about this a week or two ago and it was being sold as .....This WILL be the future.  The way it came across to me was about the same as electric vehicles.  All over hyped and  unrealistic.  I'm not saying it doesn't work but considering the  fact that you'd have to a major engineering rebuild of your house with complete replacement of pipes, radiators, storage I  can't see many  people  having the spare cash to afford it.  How can you have a situation of houses/ families on the bread line using food banks and being penalised by ulez zones suddenly deciding to go into hock for the rest of your life with a mortgage and pcp on vehicles.  Still a friend of mine has a new Hyundi hybrid for which he traded in a car for £20,000 and he pays £280 a month.  When he's had the car 3 years he has options. He can pay a lump of £23,000 and the car is his or start a new deal.  It's cheap when you say it quick. To me it looks like it's all being hyped up by salesmen.  It's another case of people who can't or won't get a job.  Suddenly they become an online influencer not that they have any practical experience to influence anyone about anything other than air heads.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Minky

[Vince Green]

My niece and her husband have just recently bought a new build house with a heat pump.  They are not very impressed, they say it didn't really keep the house warm in the winter. Had to be supplemented

This ties in with what Yellow Bear said

To be fair, that could be a reflection on the builders choosing a cheapo heat pump because I think the build quality of the houses is pretty poor generally

[dm672]

they can work but not going to be cheaper than mains gas. they also work best at low flow temps so require underfloor heating or oversized radiators with suitable pipework. also need a totally different operating method to conventional  gas or oil boiler ie best run 24 / 7 with lowest flow temp possible. overall need carefull planning and setting up attempting to use one as a direct replacment for oil or gas will likely end in trouble and / or some very big bills

 

 

 

[Ultrastu]

The way I belive they work is that in summer when the out side air is warm air source  heat pumps work really well as they only have to raise the temperature  from say 15 degree to 20 degree  .so an increase of 5 degree or so .In winter when the out side temperature is - 5  they can raise the temperature in your house  by 5 degrees  so up to a whopping 0 degree,  and you freeze to death . That's about the sum of it .

Buy a log burner now while you still can .

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ultrastu

[Shambam1962]

My mate purchased a small holding in Haverfordwest in 2019 and has just completed renovating the old stone farmhouse.

[Weihrauch17]

6 minutes ago, Shambam1962 said:

My mate purchased a small holding in Haverfordwest in 2019 and has just completed renovating the old stone farmhouse.

And??

[Shambam1962]

He has just qualified for a £30,000 grant under the Eco4 scheme to have solar panels, insulation and a ground source heat pump heating.

Both him and his wife work and don’t claim benefits, and he had a leaflet posted explaining he could apply for the grant if he had oil or solid fuel heating, which he does.

They started the work on Monday and hope to complete in 2 weeks.

The guy doing the survey said that not a lot of people are aware of the scheme in Wales.

[udderlyoffroad]

11 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

In winter when the out side temperature is - 5  they can raise the temperature in your house  by 5 degrees  so up to a whopping 0 degree,  and you freeze to death . That's about the sum of it .

Buy a log burner now while you still can .

Yes, just look at all the media reports in Scandinavia or Switzerland of people with their heat pumps freezing to death in winter.  If you're going to write tosh, try to make it at least funny 😆

Unlike a lot of other posters, I do actually have one, but I'm the first admit it was installed in May and I've yet to live through the winter with it.

There's been plenty of other threads on here where I've shared my thoughts, see this post, or this one and this thread where I detail how I got the grant to do it, per the above mentioned Eco4 scheme.

Executive summary: heat pumps can work well, but it does depend on your circumstances.  If you live off the mains gas grid and don't have an existing oil/lpg setup, then it's probably a good choice, especially if you have a decent size roof to fit solar and are willling to insulate.

If you live in Suburbia in a vicotrian semi and are on the mains gas, not so much.

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Start needlessly storing hot water again. No thanks.

Not necessarily a requirement with a heat pump, nor needless.  Obviously, if you like the idea of a combi boiler giving you on demand water, fine.  If you like the idea of a 'thermal battery' storing your excess solar PV energy, that can also work.  Depends on your circumstances.  Again, if you have a combi which gives on demand hot water, youre likely on mains gas, in which case a heat pump makes no economic sense at present.

 

[Ultrastu]

16 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Unlike a lot of other posters, I do actually have one, but I'm the first admit it was installed in May and I've yet to live through the winter with it.

Well let us know how you got on during this winter next spring .👍

If you still have any fingers left to type after the frost bite has taken a few .I will read your posts sat infront of my burning oak logs  with a pint of Butcombe  ale   cheers  .

[udderlyoffroad]

I respect your input on air rifles, but maybe avoid the HVAC threads.... 🤣

Incidentally I do have a log burner, ideally I'd like to be able to use a back boiler model, so that its excess heat could also warm the same tank of hot water, as a power-failure backup.  Sadly the hot water cylinders available on the grant are deliberately 'hobbled' without a solid fuel input loop for carbon saving reasons.

Am drinking a Hobgoblin, meself...cheers

[scarecrow243]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

The way I belive they work is that in summer when the out side air is warm air source  heat pumps work really well as they only have to raise the temperature  from say 15 degree to 20 degree  .so an increase of 5 degree or so .In winter when the out side temperature is - 5  they can raise the temperature in your house  by 5 degrees  so up to a whopping 0 degree,  and you freeze to death . That's about the sum of it .

Buy a log burner now while you still can .

they do not use outside air to heat your house we have a heat pump and solar panels  the heat pump works the opposite it blows out cold air it does not suck warm air in

[Acerforestry]

Ultrastu mentioned log burners, yes a little while back I'd have agreed but if you look at the thread on the new Energy Bill being  conveniently rushed through Parliament now, wood stoves are likely to be out of the question within quite a short time frame. And heat pumps will be de rigeur basically, whether we approve or not...oh yes and the online Safety Bill is also being rushed through, so before too long we won't be having these exchanges. Sorry people but it really isn't looking good

[ph5172]

Mate had an air source heat pump, solar and battery install as a package. 
 

he said unless you are installing solar don’t even think about them. 
 

He also has trickery going on where he will use grid power when it is cheaper rather than draining the batteries 

[alan123shooting]

9 hours ago, Shambam1962 said:

He has just qualified for a £30,000 grant under the Eco4 scheme to have solar panels, insulation and a ground source heat pump heating.

Both him and his wife work and don’t claim benefits, and he had a leaflet posted explaining he could apply for the grant if he had oil or solid fuel heating, which he does.

They started the work on Monday and hope to complete in 2 weeks.

The guy doing the survey said that not a lot of people are aware of the scheme in 

Edited September 23, 2023 by alan123shooting

[Newbie to this]

9 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Not necessarily a requirement with a heat pump, nor needless.  Obviously, if you like the idea of a combi boiler giving you on demand water, fine.  If you like the idea of a 'thermal battery' storing your excess solar PV energy, that can also work.  Depends on your circumstances.  Again, if you have a combi which gives on demand hot water, youre likely on mains gas, in which case a heat pump makes no economic sense at present.

 

So they can produce hot water on demand, but you need this battery thing? All without storing it and wasting energy needlessly, ie. I want a hot shower in the morning, but don't want to heat water and store it while I'm asleep, especially knowing I won't use a whole cylinder full of hot water.

If not it just seems like an inefficient, and backwards step in hot water production. Wasting energy storing hot water so it is available , if and when I need it.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Newbie to this

[Vince Green]

10 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

 

Buy a log burner now while you still can .

That's another thing they are trying to ban. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Vince Green

[dm672]

having read some of the above I can see why heat pumps have a bad name. I have had one since 2009 , now on my second , if you use them correctly in a suitable property they can be cheaper to run than oil but probably no cheaper than mains gas, I have never heard of a heat pump that can do hot water on demand like a combi boiler so a hot water tank is required . Modern ones have very low heat loss