Payments

[Scully]

Wasn’t really sure where to post this, so it’s here; mods can move if they wish. 
It’s a question that has raised its head now and again on our shoot, and I don’t know the answer. 
None of us go beating or picking up for the money, but how do commercial shoots  ( which sell days ) get away with paying less than minimum wage for beating and picking up? 
We get 45 quid for at least a 7 hour day. I’ve been asked to beat on another for 35 quid. Mate gets 80 quid a day for beating on a grouse moor.  All are less than minimum wage for the hours worked. 
Why does minimum wage not apply to commercial shoots? 
 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Scully

[holloway]

50 minutes ago, Scully said:

Wasn’t really sure where to post this, so it’s here; mods can move if they wish. 
It’s a question that has raised its head now and again on our shoot, and I don’t know the answer. 
None of us go beating or picking up for the money, but how do commercial shoots  ( which sell days ) get away with paying less than minimum wage for beating and picking up? 
We get 45 quid for at least a 7 hour day. I’ve been asked to beat on another for 35 quid. Mate gets 80 quid a day for beating on a grouse moor.  All are less than minimum wage for the hours worked. 
Why does minimum wage not apply to commercial shoots? 
 

Cheapskates basically, minimum wage should apply, if you all stayed home they would up the rate very quickly , you are subsidising the wealthy shooter.

Edited September 29, 2023 by holloway

[ditchman]

good question................................do or does the phrase "payment in kind"....form the other part of the monetarial payment......therfore the calculation of the minimum amount can be acheived...by adding the perceived "payment in kind"....potencial part.....................

christ that sounds like a load of testicles ..................(note to ones self ...drink more alcohol and become more lucid)

[scarecrow243]

its like any thing else if people are stupid enough to do it for peanuts they will keep paying peanuts simples

[marsh man]

This subject have been rolling on for years and very little have been done to make it fair for both parties , when I have brought it up in the past on a shooting day it is normally swept under the carpet and very little is said about it , we have to sign for our ( wages ) and is less than what the op is getting , it have also been talked about paying tax on the few bob you get , in my case I pick up and we get £40 , I would imagine that time I put my exspenses down the tax people would owe me money , I did hear a lot of shoots are charging £50 a bird due to increase charges , I wander if we were included in the increase charges , I very much doubt it .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I no longer beat for exactly this reason.

[strimmer_13]

Guessing they see it as subsidised off a day shooting at the end of the season, if you take a day on the pheasants as a £400 day. If you done 9 days beating 

35 (£) x 9 (shoots) = £315 

+ £400( a days shooting and guessing nowadays a small shoot) = £715

Then 7 (hours) X 9 (shoots) = 63 (total hours worked)

£715 ÷ 63 = £11.34 per hour worked. 

Well I think that made sense in my head. 

 

And then you hear of **** holes not giving a beaters day round here, really makes it worth it....

Edited September 29, 2023 by strimmer_13

[billytheghillie]

Surely if your on minimum wage on any job you get taxed ?  maybe thats how they get away with it. I used to beat at Floors, £50 cash in hand and a bit of lunch, now they pay it into your bank account, i didnt go back.

[marsh man]

Looking at it from our point of view is we are all a friendly lot and I can honestly say that you hardly ever hear any of the beaters moan , several of us are getting on a bit and it's nice to catch up with the ones who still turn up and have a good ole yarn , we meet up at 9am and get going at 9.30 , dinner is around 1pm and we have a good hour before we are out again at around 2pm and then we try to get finished by 4 pm , we always get at least one beaters day and most years two so those who go on other shoots get a chance to go on each place they beat for , we know the day is worth more pay but we have a choice and I would sooner be there rather than be at home , the pay nowadays means very little as I get all the Pigeon shooting anyone could wish for and when I was employed they were very good people to work for , I know not everyone will see it the same way but a lifetime involved in the shooting very often start off in the beating team .

[Centrepin]

Most folk do it for the enjoyment rather than ££s, if it was money they wanted, plenty of part time work going. 

Till I read a post above I'd never heard of anything but cash in hand, cash generally means no tax so unaccountable.

Before I joined the Army I used to beat on a grouse shoot in Derbyshire, 10/- if you were lucky plus grub and a bottle of double diamond. 

Beating one shoot and a very famous person gave me and my two friends a pound note each. That day the gamekeeper didn't pay us at all, said we'd had enough.

[B725]

Some people think that beaters should not get anything at all because it's fun not work regardless of cost of fuel or vet's bills. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, I only go beating on one shoot now but it's a friendly joyful day with food a hot drink, I did go on another shoot but told to shut up talking by the keeper in the beaters wagon on the last drive, 🤔 I did 1 more day and thought naa up yours, 🤔🙄😊

[tonyshooter]

Our beaters get no cash payment, however, they do get a beaters day ( driven birds - value £315) and a mop up day ( walked up birds - value £100 ) and a place at the annual shoot dinner for them selves and their partner ( value £140 ).

This equates to £555 divided by 8 shoots = £69.38 / day

We shoot 8 days and at the start of the season we ask the team if the would like paying.

The answer is always a no.

Edited September 30, 2023 by tonyshooter

[marsh man]

Looking in the wanted section a member was asking for beaters , the pay was £70 for Grouse and £55 for Pheasants , if I was a teenager, or a young person who was interested in shooting and living in the area I would had been there and even now £70 is a fair bit of money , I wouldn't had been interested in what the guns were paying , as I have never seen a wild Grouse let alone seen a Grouse drive , so to me it would had been a day off my bucket list and got paid in the bargain .

The way I have seen it over the years is , if you haven't got the interest in how the day is set up and the banter that go on throughout the day then you don't see that person that often , everyone involved try and make the day go as smoothly as possible and feel part of the team , all the ole hands know exactly what to do as the drive is in progress which in turn make it a lot less stressful for the keeper , we have got a lot of big shoots in the area and some do pay more than some of the others , but if you are happy on the one you beat for then the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence 

[FOXHUNTER1]

2 hours ago, tonyshooter said:

Our beaters get no cash payment, however, they do get a beaters day ( driven birds - value £315) and a mop up day ( walked up birds - value £100 ) and a place at the annual shoot dinner for them selves and their partner ( value £140 ).

This equates to £555 divided by 8 shoots = £69.38 / day

We shoot 8 days and at the start of the season we ask the team if the would like paying.

The answer is always a no.

The way it should be , you shouldn't be beating for the money. When I have been beating on shoots I was always glad to be out with like minded folk plus got vermin shooting. 

Fed and watered plus beaters day and all year vermin shooting was enough for me , no need for cash as it spoils everything. 

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

The way it should be , you shouldn't be beating for the money. When I have been beating on shoots I was always glad to be out with like minded folk plus got vermin shooting. 

Fed and watered plus beaters day and all year vermin shooting was enough for me , no need for cash as it spoils everything. 

That is fine for the majority of beaters , but we do get some who no longer shoot and just enjoy the day out so they are happy getting a small payment as it give them a few bob in there pocket and cover the expenses , for the shooting person they get driven shooting on the beaters day , four Saturday afternoons in February roost shooting and vermin shooting in the close season if they want it and hopefully have a good day out with as you say , like minded folk .

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

The way it should be , you shouldn't be beating for the money. When I have been beating on shoots I was always glad to be out with like minded folk plus got vermin shooting. 

Fed and watered plus beaters day and all year vermin shooting was enough for me , no need for cash as it spoils everything. 

Probably agree with most of this 

however that’s fine on the syndicated shoots and the farm shoots even the lord of the manner ones 

when we move in to the corporate side of things it becomes different 

the shooting is about making money big days big bags where every bird counts and weighs in at more than a day’s wages for a picker up or a beater 

on some of these corporate days with unknown people shooting in the field insurance is a important aspect if you’re not paid it’s highly likely that you wouldn’t be insured on the day not guaranteed a decent beater’s day (payment) or any vermin or pigeon shooting 

theres lots to consider 

me personally I don’t want paying enjoy the day whatever it is but do think that payment for the helpers should be fair depending upon what they get in perks 

[Centrepin]

1 hour ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

The way it should be , you shouldn't be beating for the money. When I have been beating on shoots I was always glad to be out with like minded folk plus got vermin shooting. 

Fed and watered plus beaters day and all year vermin shooting was enough for me , no need for cash as it spoils everything. 

For 3 years before leaving school, weekends and holidays I got part time work on a sheep farm above Hathersage, plus work on other farms ad hoc through beating.

The work was back breaking dawn to dusk plus as much shooting as I had time for. Taught me so much more than money could buy.

[B725]

I don't really think anyone does it for the money but concidering how much the gun's pay for the day there should be some sort of reward, some shoots like what tonyshooter has said have looked after the beaters sadly a lot don't. 

[gmm243]

I get £30/day for picking up.Basically it covers my diesel. Beaters get the same. For none of us it is about the payment but a chance to work our dogs and get more retrieves in a day than they might get in a season of rough shooting.

We get as many birds home with us as we want, elevenses and a lunch provided then a good day at the end of the season.

I have known the men and ladies in the group for over 20 years and we all get on very well and none of us are in it for the money. 

There are no others shoots in the area and lots of folk trying to get in to beat or pick up but we have enough and a good solid team so the places are well guarded.

I still work which means taking a daya holiday but 90% of the others are retired so enjoy the day out with friends.

[marsh man]

I agree with O F about the commercial shoots and fair pay for the helpers , when I was working on some private small building jobs I wouldn't expect a labourer to help me out for next to nothing so why beat all day in all conditions for less than the price of one bird shot , some of them think they are giving you the earth when they say help yourself to some birds , if they were getting good money for the shot game then I doubt they would be that generous , but with them making a few pence and at times not covering the fuel and time to take them to the dealers , then they are happy to see them all go on the day as a few days later they will have a similar number of game to dispose of .

[FOXHUNTER1]

4 hours ago, gmm243 said:

I get £30/day for picking up.Basically it covers my diesel. Beaters get the same. For none of us it is about the payment but a chance to work our dogs and get more retrieves in a day than they might get in a season of rough shooting.

We get as many birds home with us as we want, elevenses and a lunch provided then a good day at the end of the season.

I have known the men and ladies in the group for over 20 years and we all get on very well and none of us are in it for the money. 

There are no others shoots in the area and lots of folk trying to get in to beat or pick up but we have enough and a good solid team so the places are well guarded.

I still work which means taking a daya holiday but 90% of the others are retired so enjoy the day out with friends.

👍

[London Best]

People go beating because they enjoy it. 

Beating is not work.
 

Those who go for the money are not welcome nor wanted.

Those who go to try and get some shooting out of it are equally not welcome nor wanted.

A mate of mine, a shoot captain on two shoots and also a sporting agent says, when beater’s start asking about pay rises, “all those who are doing it for the money, please go and beat somewhere else.”

I agree with him 100%.
In one season I “earned” £2100. The diesel cost me £1200. So I earned £900 for 78 days “work”. I loved every minute and would have done it for nothing.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

People go beating because they enjoy it. 

Beating is not work.
 

Those who go for the money are not welcome nor wanted.

Those who go to try and get some shooting out of it are equally not welcome nor wanted.

A mate of mine, a shoot captain on two shoots and also a sporting agent says, when beater’s start asking about pay rises, “all those who are doing it for the money, please go and beat somewhere else.”

I agree with him 100%.
In one season I “earned” £2100. The diesel cost me £1200. So I earned £900 for 78 days “work”. I loved every minute and would have done it for nothing.

So if you’re not employed by the shoot how are you covered by the shoot insurance in the event of a serious accident 

more are people expected to work for free dig into their pockets for fuel and then take out insurance incase they get injured or worse 

it happens 

[B725]

59 minutes ago, London Best said:

People go beating because they enjoy it. 

Beating is not work.
 

Those who go for the money are not welcome nor wanted.

Those who go to try and get some shooting out of it are equally not welcome nor wanted.

A mate of mine, a shoot captain on two shoots and also a sporting agent says, when beater’s start asking about pay rises, “all those who are doing it for the money, please go and beat somewhere else.”

I agree with him 100%.
In one season I “earned” £2100. The diesel cost me £1200. So I earned £900 for 78 days “work”. I loved every minute and would have done it for nothing.

Clearly you don't  understand the definition of work regardless of any payment or not, you state that those who go for money or try to get shooting are not welcome nor wanted then claim you earnt £2100 in one season ! Make your mind up.

Even if there no payment for beating you are still classed as employed by either the estate or the shoot and they are indeed liable in the event of any accident