Most will disagree.

[JDog]

I posted recently about running out of my normal cartridges and using substitutes which I considered inferior.

 

Late this afternoon whilst driving home I saw a weak line into a fresh barley stubble. Having gun and dog to hand I decided to stand behind a high hedge and flight line them for an hour. No bird was less than 30m high, most were 40m and slightly above. The substitute cartridges just did not perform well. I had 26 shots, I hit eighteen birds, some twice, and only killed 12 birds outright. Against a bright blue sky I could see the pellet strike but many birds flew on.

 

A poor workman blames his tools and I may be guilty of that but I do believe that there is a huge variation in the quality of apparently similar cartridges and when a shooter gets used to one type of cartridge it is often difficult to adapt to others. I suspect I will struggle until I get some more of my favourite cartridges.

[Dr D]

I have been using 32 gr FOBs since August. They are not expensive and hard hitting. Very few runners when fighting. But I agree same load in some other brands have been useless.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Dr D

[ben0850]

I have to agree, I don't know if it's a confidence thing or the 'placebo' effect, I won't use anything other than black gold. Father in law uses only Royals, he was beside himself last year when his usual source suggested they were discontinued. Thank god for 'just carts'!

[sako751sg]

I used to be a firm believer in a cartridge being a cartridge but now i know some are better than others and thats been learned in the field.

[aga man]

I think some cartridges suit certain guns or peoples shooting styles different to others, what might perform well in one mans gun may well pattern differently in another mans.

 

Or am I talking ********

 

I presume you are talking about the Eley pigeon select JDog?

I have just acquired a slab but have yet to try them.

[Westley]

I do not believe that some cartridges are better than others, BUT certain cartridges suit certain guns and NOT others. I once tested 10 different 20 bore loads through my Beretta EELL fixed choke, the patterns had to be seen to be believed. Some were perfect but others you could have put a cow in some of the gaps in the pattern. Once I find a cartridge that works in my guns, then I will stick with them. I just wish manufacturers would not keep changing the components.

[sishyplops]

I recently bought 500 gamebore blue diamond 8's fibre and 500 white gold 8's fibre, on first stand I dusted 6 in a row with the blue diamonds, stuck a pair of golds in missed one and the other was bitty, put one of each in for the last pair and missed the White gold and dusted the diamond, my conclusion is that perhaps the golds are faster and I over led the target, will be buying blue diamonds from now on, cracking cartridge, on a game shoot last year that I was beating on The keeper asked me to shoot on a stand and gave me 50 black golds, I missed to very easy birds much to his dismay , he hen said they are stupid fast cartridges I halfed my leads and only missed 1 bird for the rest of the day, just goes to show ya

[kyska]

I posted recently about running out of my normal cartridges and using substitutes which I considered inferior.

Late this afternoon whilst driving home I saw a weak line into a fresh barley stubble. Having gun and dog to hand I decided to stand behind a high hedge and flight line them for an hour. No bird was less than 30m high, most were 40m and slightly above. The substitute cartridges just did not perform well. I had 26 shots, I hit eighteen birds, some twice, and only killed 12 birds outright. Against a bright blue sky I could see the pellet strike but many birds flew on.

A poor workman blames his tools and I may be guilty of that but I do believe that there is a huge variation in the quality of apparently similar cartridges and when a shooter gets used to one type of cartridge it is often difficult to adapt to others. I suspect I will struggle until I get some more of my favourite cartridges.

I think unless you do, use a 20 bore.

[Stonepark]

Not all cartridges/chokes work together and the cartridges may be fine through another gun.

 

Might be worth splitting one open and checking weight and pellet number, to make sure you have got what it says on the box.

 

All you can do is change again until you find another which works.

[motty]

I recently bought 500 gamebore blue diamond 8's fibre and 500 white gold 8's fibre, on first stand I dusted 6 in a row with the blue diamonds, stuck a pair of golds in missed one and the other was bitty, put one of each in for the last pair and missed the White gold and dusted the diamond, my conclusion is that perhaps the golds are faster and I over led the target, will be buying blue diamonds from now on, cracking cartridge, on a game shoot last year that I was beating on The keeper asked me to shoot on a stand and gave me 50 black golds, I missed to very easy birds much to his dismay , he hen said they are stupid fast cartridges I halfed my leads and only missed 1 bird for the rest of the day, just goes to show ya

I disagree about the cartridge speeds. It shouldn't make that much difference.

[fenboy]

JDog, George from proper cartridges is plugging some lead 40 gram 3s on here , they will deal with your 40m pigeons and put lots of big holes in 20m ones

[yickdaz]

I have been using the eley pigeon 30g fibre select all summer with 1/4 and 3/4 fixed choke and find that they do the job well enough but I think its all down to choke and range you shoot at a bird at 50 yards with 1/4 choke isn,t going to be hit with as many pellets as it would with 3/4 or full so to me that's the difference between a hit bird with feathers coming off it, and a bird that's folds up dead in a puff of feathers and that goes for most pigeon carts well that's my take on it

[hawkfanz]

come on jd wot carts was it if it was the new eley when I tried them I missed bout 8 in a row flighted pigeon,thought they were carp,but then once I found them 40yard ones dropped like bricks so I assume I,d found the pace that was in them carts.

[fortune]

I had a bit of this earlier in the year when we were flighting pigeons into the wood. I was using homeloads of 30 and 32 grms of #6. In one flight I only brought two down and heavily plucked about ten. The next flight I got about ten and plucked two. Same cartridge same set up it was just me. If the target is within the capabilities of the cartridge and gun and you put the lead on the target clay or other then it should do the job. If it doesn't then either you aren't on target or it's too far away. As far as I am concerned if they go bang and the lead is in there and I put the lead on the target it is going to do the job.
I was once given a quantity of Dutch ( I believe) Gytorp cartridges by a gentleman that "Didn't use FOREIGN cartridges". He only used Eley Grand Prix 1-1/8 #5
I always made sure that I used them to their full advantage when he and I were shooting together by ejecting the spent cartridges in his direction, with a complement as to his generosity of such a magnificent cartridge.

[Whitebridges]

I guess I've tried them all.

Normal day in the hide with a hundred year old side by side I'd use Hull Imperial Game 28g 6's or 7's.

Then there are times when it's windy, they're coming from behind and longer distance from the front.Typically I'd use Eley 6.5 HB 32g with a bit of choke, about half. Top cartridge but I think they may have now discontinued it.

A few years ago I had a day on the pigeon with bloke who shot trap for his country. Class shot who used a full choked Italian trap gun and 34g Gamebore Pigeon Extreme No 5 . He creamed a lot of good birds. I bought a slab and still have a few left for the top barrel when roost shooting .

[pigeon controller]

I do not disagree with you JDog, I have used many types of cartridges over the years and they all take time to adapt your style. There is a physical and mental approach to a change in specification. As you are aware I have been using George's Cartridges for some time and it took a good month to adapt . They suit DB's style of shooting and he now praises them as I do.

 

Motty says speed should not make a difference and I agree as you have to make the calculation mentally and some times subconsciously . I remember being given two slabs of Eastern European carts and I had to give normal lead " plus a bit" to hit the birds.

 

I hope you find a cartridge that you feel comfortable with in the near future.

[dad]

i used to keep my carts in metal garden shed untill i gave a hand full to a mate i was shareing a hide with told me that the small crushed leaf bits that were down his barrels was unburnt powder and and would affect performance. i had had some misfires with sipes when game shooting and a lot of feather plucking with express on pigeon. surprising how damp a warehouse can get in the winter with the heat turned on and off i allways keep mine in the house now, i never leave any in the car overnight too much condensation.

[sishyplops]

I disagree about the cartridge speeds. It shouldn't make that much difference.

 

 

i think the difference between a black gold at 1500FPS and a cart that does 1400 FPS is 100FPS or am i wrong?

[motty]

i think the difference between a black gold at 1500FPS and a cart that does 1400 FPS is 100FPS or am i wrong?

That should be correct. However, black golds are unlikely to produce a velocity of 1500 fps. Even of they did, a cartridge with velocity of 1400 fps would give a difference in lead of maybe a couple of inches at 40 yards.

[kitchrat]

That should be correct. However, black golds are unlikely to produce a velocity of 1500 fps. Even of they did, a cartridge with velocity of 1400 fps would give a difference in lead of maybe a couple of inches at 40 yards.

I'm afraid I have to pretty much agree with Motty on this one!!!

If the target is 40 yards (120 feet) away, a very "slow" cartridge at say an average1200ft/second will take 1/10 (0.1) second to get there.

If the pigeon is doing 40 mph, which is 40x1760x3 feet/hour or 58.67ft/sec, in the time it takes the shot to get there he will travel nearly 6 ft. (5.867 to be exact) Sounds reasonable??

 

A "fast" cartridge, at an average of 1450ft/sec will take 0.0827 sec to cover the 120 feet. In this time the pigeon will have gone 58.67x 0.0827 = 4.85 feet, so it's a foot difference.

 

I have assumed a long shot, a fast pigeon and taken the average shot speed as the quoted muzzle velocity, for a fairly extreme couple of examples.

At 40 yards, a medium choke should have a pattern of about 40 inches diameter, so if you were right on it, you still nailed it!

[bruno22rf]

Muzzle velocity is just that-velocity at the muzzle-by the time the pellets have gone a few inches they are losing speed so you cannot work out range/time without knowing the feet /s/s that the pellet slows down by.

[Farma Geddon]

I don't think any twelve bore has an effective 40 "pattern , 30 " is the norm.

[kitchrat]

I don't think any twelve bore has an effective 40 "pattern , 30 " is the norm.

I didn't dream this up, see attached file and extrapolate half choke (modified) from full choke diagram.

And yes, of course I know that shot speeds fall off dramatically, it's a simplified calculation for Pigeon Watch members to show that different cartridge velocities will not make a huge difference to the lead required.

choke spread.doc

Edited October 2, 2015 by kitchrat

[kenholland]

every time I try a new cartridge I always pattern plate first with a few of my favourite chokes then I have a rough idea what I am in for same for the clays.

[Farma Geddon]

I didn't dream this up, see attached file and extrapolate half choke (modified) from full choke diagram.

And yes, of course I know that shot speeds fall off dramatically, it's a simplified calculation for Pigeon Watch members to show that different cartridge velocities will not make a huge difference to the lead required.

Whilst that may be true , the effective part of any pattern is only 30 ".

Shoot a pattern and look for yourself.