Brexit - Merged Threads

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The course of events needs to be:

 

Conservatives elect new leader, THERESA MAY who as a result becomes PM.

 

New PM THERESA MAY must invoke Article 50 without delay.

PM THERESA MAY must remain in post until 2020, next general election in order to provide stability for the markets and the economy, whilst providing continuity for negotiations to tke place and secure the right deal for the UK. The precedent has already been set by Gordon Brown succeding Tony Blair.

 

The whole exit of the EU is a massive issue that we must get right, it is much bigger than party politics.

 

Given the enormity of the consequence of our leaving it would be prudent to allow a cross party delegation, to conduct the negotiations. This is the time to role out people like Lord Digby Jones (a cross party peer).

 

The negotiations need to be along the lines outlined by UK Poacher.

 

Just thought I would addopt the Granet approach!

[Scully]

Oh right, so 'virtually none" of three people he was addressing specifically?

 

Did everyone understand that first time round?

I think perhaps you are now clutching at straws in your resentment, desperate to make a point no one is actually interested in.

[UKPoacher]

[Granett]

I think perhaps you are now clutching at straws in your resentment, desperate to make a point no one is actually interested in.

A point that doesn't fit with your decided worldview which you therefore will ignore. Like so much in this "debate". I've said it before but those that voted leave are most like creationists in their mindset. They take pride in being able to ignore the facts that disprove their position and Wear it like a badge of honour. It was clear in the rejection of the views of experts before the vote.

 

Anyway, the damage is done, the rest of the world now tars the whole nation with the moron brush.

 

In terms of the Conservative leadership, it was interesting to see in the leaked email between Mr and Mrs Gove, that the only people who really count are Murdoch and Dacre. Fascinating that the Sun and the Mail should be seen as so important when the electorate are such a discerning and free thinking set.

[toontastic]

Granett,

A long time ago experts said the world was flat. It was only by going against the view of experts has the world managed to move on and evolve.

So my question is, do you live in a world that is flat or a world that is round.

[Granett]

Granett,

A long time ago experts said the world was flat. It was only by going against the view of experts has the world managed to move on and evolve.

So my question is, do you live in a world that is flat or a world that is round.

A more appropriate analogy is the continued existence of the Flat Earth Theorists - like creationists and many Leave Voters, they too talk about conspiracies of experts at work against them.

[Vince Green]

Like so much in this "debate". I've said it before but those that voted leave are most like creationists in their mindset. They take pride in being able to ignore the facts that disprove their position and Wear it like a badge of honour. It was clear in the rejection of the views of experts before the vote.

 

 

 

I would say, if anything, it is the remain camp that were most like the creationists. Stuck in the illogical, quasi-religious belief that the EU was actually achieving anything except its own self perpetuation. They believed the propaganda even when it was clearly not true.

 

I actually and honestly cannot see a single argument for staying in the EU that held up under scrutiny. They all fell apart when I thought seriously about what was being said. For a ;long time I doubted my own opinion, surely there must be more to it? But the truth is it was all bluff and hype.

 

The experts, as you describe them, were all on the payroll in some way or other.

 

Its going to be tough for a while but we will shed much that was bad and much that we never signed up for. Whatever happens, whether we stayed or left, the EU will collapse. It just so happens we launched the first lifeboat.

[Granett]

Vince, when I asked, nobody could point at anything specifically that was bad about the EU, other than an intangible loss of sovereignty.

 

I didn't want to get sucked into debating the stuff that's redundant post vote so apologies for that.

 

If Remain voters were similarly inclined to a UKIP approach, they would now, and for the next quarter of a century do everything in their power to undermine progress in this new "independent Britain" project.

 

When you look at who we sent as MEPs to represent the UK's interests in the EU it makes me want to weep.

 

Can you imagine the UK's position had we sent our brightest and best - instead of people content to smirk and make hand gestures.

 

I'm amazed that we did so well to be honest.

 

I'm beginning to think that the brand of "democracy" We have in this country, where 2 news editors pick the results of any vote and people's prejudices go unchallenged and instead manipulated for gain, is not the best form of rule.

[Gordon R]

Vince, when I asked, nobody could point at anything specifically that was bad about the EU, other than an intangible loss of sovereignty.

 

This list of what was bad with the EU is as long as your arm. You chose - for reasons best known to only yourself - to totally ignore them. Absolute garbage.

 

 

When you look at who we sent as MEPs to represent the UK's interests in the EU it makes me want to weep.

 

 

Perhaps you need to save your tears for those who represent us at Westminster. Plenty to go at.

[Rewulf]

A point that doesn't fit with your decided worldview which you therefore will ignore. Like so much in this "debate". I've said it before but those that voted leave are most like creationists in their mindset. They take pride in being able to ignore the facts that disprove their position and Wear it like a badge of honour. It was clear in the rejection of the views of experts before the vote.

I think youve just described yourself there.

 

Anyway, the damage is done, the rest of the world now tars the whole nation with the moron brush.

Let them,time will see it was the right decision.

 

In terms of the Conservative leadership, it was interesting to see in the leaked email between Mr and Mrs Gove, that the only people who really count are Murdoch and Dacre. Fascinating that the Sun and the Mail should be seen as so important when the electorate are such a discerning and free thinking set.

It wouldnt have something to do with the fact she was a journo herself would it ?

 

Vince, when I asked, nobody could point at anything specifically that was bad about the EU, other than an intangible loss of sovereignty.

No,you didnt listen to anyones opinion about the bad in the EU project.

 

I didn't want to get sucked into debating the stuff that's redundant post vote so apologies for that.

But I did anyway.

 

If Remain voters were similarly inclined to a UKIP approach, they would now, and for the next quarter of a century do everything in their power to undermine progress in this new "independent Britain" project.

So ,they are not bleating about 2nd referendums,failed 'promises' and the old have done us over,its not even been a week yet!

 

When you look at who we sent as MEPs to represent the UK's interests in the EU it makes me want to weep.

Sent ? They were elected,do you understand the concept?

People like Farage and Hannan were elected by people who fully understood what they were voting for - Brexit,so weep.

 

Can you imagine the UK's position had we sent our brightest and best - instead of people content to smirk and make hand gestures.

You mean brown noses ?

 

I'm amazed that we did so well to be honest.

Yes we did ,get over it.

 

I'm beginning to think that the brand of "democracy" We have in this country, where 2 news editors pick the results of any vote and people's prejudices go unchallenged and instead manipulated for gain, is not the best form of rule.

Get used to that too,its been like it for a while.

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - excellent and detailed post.

 

I actually feel sorry for Granett - unable to string a proper argument together without resorting to sweeping generalisations about what was in voters minds.

[Granett]

Rewulf - excellent and detailed post.

 

I actually feel sorry for Granett - unable to string a proper argument together without resorting to sweeping generalisations about what was in voters minds.

No need to feel sorry for me! I can handle a few "No you are!" arguments followed by the regulatory "+1", "Excellent point, mate" supporter comments.

[Rewulf]

No need to feel sorry for me! I can handle a few "No you are!" arguments followed by the regulatory "+1", "Excellent point, mate" supporter comments.

 

Have you actually, ever in your life,thought for one moment you might be wrong ?

 

Rewulf - excellent and detailed post.

 

I actually feel sorry for Granett - unable to string a proper argument together without resorting to sweeping generalisations about what was in voters minds.

 

Thanks Gordon,I feel sorry for him too,why is he here, on a shooting forum trying to argue his case is beyond me.

I dont believe for one minute he is interested in field sports,or anything else to do with shooting.

Its political debate,with no 'debate' from him,we are all wrong and he is always 'right'

Edited June 30, 2016 by Rewulf

[MrM]

My personal choice would be Liam Fox - he has the right attitude towards Europe, but without all the headlining others have, stay on until 2020, and that the last thing he should do is invoke Article 50 until we have got the sort of deal we want - once we sign the paper, the clock starts and out bargaining position begins to wain.

 

As has been pointed out Merkel and Hollande have elections coming up - that's why they are pushing. The longer we leave it the more they will be compliant with our wishes..

Edited June 30, 2016 by MrM

[old'un]

 

Have you actually, ever in your life,thought for one moment you might be wrong ?

 

 

Thanks Gordon,I feel sorry for him too,why is he here, on a shooting forum trying to argue his case is beyond me.

I dont believe for one minute he is interested in field sports,or anything else to do with shooting.

Its political debate,with no 'debate' from him,we are all wrong and he is always 'right'

Troll or anti ?

 

Rewulf I agree with most of yours and others augments for the leave side (I voted out) but I don't think its right for you or anyone to question his motives, we all have an opinion and freedom to speak, its true this is a shooting forum but the board we are on is called 'Off Topic'

[Rewulf]

My personal choice would be Liam Fox - he has the right attitude towards Europe, but without all the headlining others have, stay on until 2020, and that the last thing he should do is invoke Article 50 until we have got the sort of deal we want - once we sign the paper, the clock starts and out bargaining position starts to wain.

 

As has been pointed out Merkel and Hollande have elections coming up - that's why they are pushing. The longer we leave it the more they will be compliant with our wishes..

 

The EU honchos have already said there will be no negotiations until article 50 has been signed.

 

Why cant Cam just sign it and get the ball rolling,he said he would,now he is backtracking.

The leadership vote can still go on around it.

[KFC]

I'm a Brexiteer.

 

Reason being, the EU is OK as an ideal but, over decades, it has proved it is incapable of coming anywhere near what it wants to achieve and we're pouring billions into chasing a utopian dream.

Talking of the billions, billions of it cannot be accounted for.

I value the fact that I can vote for who governs us, the EU is a dictatorship with a thin veneer of democracy.

We used to have a coal industry, a fishing industry and a dairy industry, now we rely on imports despite the preposition after the second world war that we should become self-sufficient in food production.

 

There's no point in me travelling two hours to enjoy one of my favourite hobbies of beachcasting anymore because the EU has said that I'm not allowed to take a single Bass between January and June and from July to December I can take one Bass in order to conserve Bass stocks. Fair enough but it's not a level playing field if Spanish trawlers and gill netters can come right up to the beach and take 1,000 tons a month.

Before anyone says 'Why didn't Nigel Farage turn up when it was debated in the EU'? it never got debated by the EU, it went straight to the unelected commissioners who nodded it through.

 

None of this has anything to do with immigration or emotion but, to my mind, is good reasoned argument for getting out now before we get sucked into the European Superstate.

 

Funny how the EU put a lid on discussions of future plans while our referendum took place, what are they hiding?

[Scully]

I voted leave but am the exact opposite of a 'creationist, and I voted leave for the single issue that I sincerely believe the EU to be undemocratic and corrupt. I didn't vote with my wallet in mind, but on that one single issue.

I've been made redundant three times in the last 20 years, but you just get on with it.

I know many folk who voted remain because they were frightened of the effect it would have on their wallets. Tough ****, thats democracy for you. Get on with your life; it'll be grand.

[Rewulf]

 

Rewulf I agree with most of yours and others augments for the leave side (I voted out) but I don't think its right for you or anyone to question his motives, we all have an opinion and freedom to speak, its true this is a shooting forum but the board we are on is called 'Off Topic'

Agreed, I was a little out of line and apologise for the jibes and will remove them.

[MrM]

 

The EU honchos have already said there will be no negotiations until article 50 has been signed.

 

 

Of course they are going to say that, but the negotiations have started! France has already said that the previous non negotiation of free movement is now not set in stone. Give it a while longer and we will be getting much closer to what we want.

Edited June 30, 2016 by MrM

[Granett]

Rewulf - I'm fairly thick skinned, so don't worry about that (and I argue for a living) but just so you know, I am interested in shooting (although just really starting out).

 

I think the reason I keep getting sucked into the Brexit debate on here, is because, truthfully, everyone else I discuss this with is Remain (my father aside, but we don't really discuss it) and cannot understand a vote to leave, whereas on here every single person (bar one or two) is Leave.

[Vince Green]

Before anyone says 'Why didn't Nigel Farage turn up when it was debated in the EU'? it never got debated by the EU, it went straight to the unelected commissioners who nodded it through.

 

That actually is a very key point, virtually nothing actually goes through the debating process and even less that involves large amounts of money. The accountability issue is huge but very rarely talked about.

 

If you say anything you are a stupid Brexiteer who drags his knuckes on the ground when you walk. Why the secrecy? I predict a few more things coming out now

[Danger-Mouse]

Vince, when I asked, nobody could point at anything specifically that was bad about the EU, other than an intangible loss of sovereignty.

 

I didn't want to get sucked into debating the stuff that's redundant post vote so apologies for that.

 

If Remain voters were similarly inclined to a UKIP approach, they would now, and for the next quarter of a century do everything in their power to undermine progress in this new "independent Britain" project.

 

When you look at who we sent as MEPs to represent the UK's interests in the EU it makes me want to weep.

 

Can you imagine the UK's position had we sent our brightest and best - instead of people content to smirk and make hand gestures.

 

I'm amazed that we did so well to be honest.

 

I'm beginning to think that the brand of "democracy" We have in this country, where 2 news editors pick the results of any vote and people's prejudices go unchallenged and instead manipulated for gain, is not the best form of rule.

 

The fact so many UKIP members were voted for as MEPs rather shows the electorate`s displeasure with the EU. The fact Cameron had to include a referendum in his party manifesto to have a chance at victory in the GE was another. The warning signs were there for anyone willing to take notice. But when it came down to it the EU through either overconfidence or stubborness refused to acknowledge the electorate`s opinions and were unwilling to negotiate any significant reforms. And now they are reaping the whirlwind of their decisions.

 

I will say one thing for them though. They have at least accepted, or appear to have, the democratic will of the UK population. Which is more than can be said for the 48ers who are now crying out about the injustice of our democratic decision. That both amuses and annoys me.

 

Both sides knew this would be a close race. All throughout the campaign the polls were fairly close rarely showing more than a 5 point lead. It`s very strange then that at no point during the campaign did I hear any remain voter saying that a clear mandate on 60%+ would be needed for us to remain and if that wasn`t achieved we should rerun the referendum at a future date. However now that the unexpected has happened and victory for leave has been achieved that`s exactly what they are saying. The so called "Millennials" are now throwing their toys out of the pram because it hasn`t gone their way and they don`t like it.

 

Well as my father once said to me when something didn`t turn out the way I wanted "Welcome to the real world son". They had their chance to vote and many of them chose not to. The older generations realising the importance of the issue did make their feelings known through the ballot and that is one of the primary reasons the vote went the way it did.

 

Now you can blame who you like for the result. You can put it down to Murdoch`s media support. You can claim leave are all racists and idiots but the truth is the fault lies with the establishment who have ignored and disenfranchised so many of the general public. Dave and Co. whilst offering a referendum never thought it would go against them. They too were blind to the signs I`ve previously mentioned. But again, like the EU, the majority of them seem to have accepted that despite not liking the result, they must follow the mandate of the people and for that at least I applaud them.

 

And make no mistake, despite the closeness of the result, this has been a victory for democracy. I don`t say that just because Leave has won, I say that because the actual number of people who turned out is one of, if not the highest, numbers of voters we have ever seen. This issue was important enough that 33 million of us voted. We may not see that number vote again in our lifetime.

 

As for democracy itself I`ll finish with a comment from the late, great, Winston Churchill.

 

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

[Rewulf]

Rewulf - I'm fairly thick skinned, so don't worry about that (and I argue for a living) but just so you know, I am interested in shooting (although just really starting out).

 

I think the reason I keep getting sucked into the Brexit debate on here, is because, truthfully, everyone else I discuss this with is Remain (my father aside, but we don't really discuss it) and cannot understand a vote to leave, whereas on here every single person (bar one or two) is Leave.

Fair enough,I apologise for my comments.

But you must understand this,Brexit issues aside,shooting sports and firearms ownership is supported more by the right wing side of politics ,than the left in this country.

Also the EU was and is,attempting to limit or curtail firearm ownership across Europe,these are facts.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion or politics,I welcome an argument if I feel strongly enough about the subject matter.

I will try and put my point across,whilst trying to understand my opponents viewpoint,this is debate.

What I will not do,is dismiss their argument because I feel they are uneducated or below my intelligence.

I left school at 15 to work in a garage,I do not have a degree or further education.

But if anyone believes that having been to university gives them some innate ability to decide what is best for me ,or to dismiss my opinion,I will seek to prove them wrong.

I forget who said it now but this is a good mantra.

Edit: It was Galileo.

 

"I never met a man so stupid that I couldnt learn something from him"

Edited June 30, 2016 by Rewulf

[Granett]

The fact so many UKIP members were voted for as MEPs rather shows the electorate`s displeasure with the EU. The fact Cameron had to include a referendum in his party manifesto to have a chance at victory in the GE was another. The warning signs were there for anyone willing to take notice. But when it came down to it the EU through either overconfidence or stubborness refused to acknowledge the electorate`s opinions and were unwilling to negotiate any significant reforms. And now they are reaping the whirlwind of their decisions.

 

I will say one thing for them though. They have at least accepted, or appear to have, the democratic will of the UK population. Which is more than can be said for the 48ers who are now crying out about the injustice of our democratic decision. That both amuses and annoys me.

 

Both sides knew this would be a close race. All throughout the campaign the polls were fairly close rarely showing more than a 5 point lead. It`s very strange then that at no point during the campaign did I hear any remain voter saying that a clear mandate on 60%+ would be needed for us to remain and if that wasn`t achieved we should rerun the referendum at a future date. However now that the unexpected has happened and victory for leave has been achieved that`s exactly what they are saying. The so called "Millennials" are now throwing their toys out of the pram because it hasn`t gone their way and they don`t like it.

 

Well as my father once said to me when something didn`t turn out the way I wanted "Welcome to the real world son". They had their chance to vote and many of them chose not to. The older generations realising the importance of the issue did make their feelings known through the ballot and that is one of the primary reasons the vote went the way it did.

 

Now you can blame who you like for the result. You can put it down to Murdoch`s media support. You can claim leave are all racists and idiots but the truth is the fault lies with the establishment who have ignored and disenfranchised so many of the general public. Dave and Co. whilst offering a referendum never thought it would go against them. They too were blind to the signs I`ve previously mentioned. But again, like the EU, the majority of them seem to have accepted that despite not liking the result, they must follow the mandate of the people and for that at least I applaud them.

 

And make no mistake, despite the closeness of the result, this has been a victory for democracy. I don`t say that just because Leave has won, I say that because the actual number of people who turned out is one of, if not the highest, numbers of voters we have ever seen. This issue was important enough that 33 million of us voted. We may not see that number vote again in our lifetime.

 

As for democracy itself I`ll finish with a comment from the late, great, Winston Churchill.

 

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

Good post.

 

(I'll get my flippancy quota out of the way first - "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill)

 

Fair enough,I apologise for my comments.

But you must understand this,Brexit issues aside,shooting sports and firearms ownership is supported more by the right wing side of politics ,than the left in this country.

Also the EU was and is,attempting to limit or curtail firearm ownership across Europe,these are facts.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion or politics,I welcome an argument if I feel strongly enough about the subject matter.

I will try and put my point across,whilst trying to understand my opponents viewpoint,this is debate.

What I will not do,is dismiss their argument because I feel they are uneducated or below my intelligence.

I left school at 15 to work in a garage,I do not have a degree or further education.

But if anyone believes that having been to university gives them some innate ability to decide what is best for me ,or to dismiss my opinion,I will seek to prove them wrong.

I forget who said it now but this is a good mantra.

Edit: It was Galileo.

 

"I never met a man so stupid that I couldnt learn something from him"

As I say, I don't think any apology's needed. Good mantra - I'm going to try and remember that one.