Rememberance

[Mice!]

7 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I'm uncomfortable with this modern (and it is modern ) obsession with  Remembrance Day. From what I remember and know of the people who actually fought both the first and second wars, they'd have been deeply embarrassed by the extremely 'unBritish' (in the traditional sense) and mawkish sentimentality that pervades the whole business. What makes it even more ironic is that the generations doing the 'remembering' (although quite what they're remembering seeing as they never knew anyone who was there) have, over the last 30+ years, systematically destroyed the culture and social cohesion of the country that my father and grandfather and others of their generations crossed the channel to defend. It's all very saddening.

 

So people shouldn't pay their respects?? I'm 42 and both of my grandfathers served in the Second Word War.

 

[Retsdon]

22 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So people shouldn't pay their respects??

That's not what I was saying. It's the sort Lady Dianaish feel about it these days that rubs me the wrong way. But perhaps these thoughts are sometimes better left unsaid.

 Incidentally - off topic I know -  but if anyone knows of anywhere that I could get a hold of a copy or scan of a small privately published book by a Godfrey Barker Harland called ' Battlefield Tour: The 1st/4th Battalion The King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in the NW Europe Campaign, 10June 1944 - 8May 1945', I would be forever in their debt. My father was always pretty close about his wartime experiences, but as he and Godfrey were together through the whole period in the title I think this book would fill in a lot of gaps for me. I have snippets and tiny snapshots - the wounded HitlerJugend kid who tried to stab him, a row with the C.O. over sending out suicidal patrols, the road with the ditches full of dead Germans and the terrible smell, the Russians on the opposite bank electro-fishing, and a couple more - but they have no context. There were no stories as such - instead my old man would just let go the occasional one-liner or casually dropped remark, almost invariably to illustrate a point in some completely different setting. It would be good to perhaps have the opportunity to try and place these happenings  in their real context and to learn a little more about the war he never much talked about.

My apologies to anyone who may have misinterpreted my original post as somehow disrespectful. That was never the intention.

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

My apologies to anyone who may have misinterpreted my original post as somehow disrespectful. That was never the intention.

fair enough, part of the reason I go to the remembrance service is to take my kids, they have never known anyone who served but i feel its important to be thankful for what those men and women gave up so we can live as we do. So every year we all buy several poppies as they go missing off coats, my Grandad always sold them for the British Legion and i wouldn't be without one in November.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

38 minutes ago, Mice! said:

fair enough, part of the reason I go to the remembrance service is to take my kids, they have never known anyone who served but i feel its important to be thankful for what those men and women gave up so we can live as we do. So every year we all buy several poppies as they go missing off coats, my Grandad always sold them for the British Legion and i wouldn't be without one in November.

Commendable, they should be worn with pride by everyone as they have all benefited from their sacrifice.

[das]

6 hours ago, walshie said:

Bad post IMO. 👎

Just because we don't know them personally, doesn't mean their sacrifice was any the smaller. My great-grandfather fought in WW1. I never met him though, so perhaps it doesn't count?

Remembrance Day is to pay respect to the thousands who gave their all in war, not just WW1. 

It's them that have given the current generation the right to be disrespectful if they so wish. 

Well said Walshie  My sentiments exactly

[walshie]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

That's not what I was saying. It's the sort Lady Dianaish feel about it these days that rubs me the wrong way. But perhaps these thoughts are sometimes better left unsaid.

I couldn't stand all that Diana nonsense and the faux grief surrounding it. She was a woman who had zero bearing on my life or my family's life. 

Remembering war heroes is a different kettle of fish. No obsession here, just genuine respect for those who deserve it. 

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, walshie said:

Remembering war heroes is a different kettle of fish. No obsession here, just genuine respect for those who deserve it. 

Well Walshie, I'm not sure that most were heroes so much as people who just did what they had to do when it was put in front of them. I don't know. I think it's that when I was younger pretty much every adult I knew had been in uniform during WW2, and a fair few of the older ones in WW1. So Remembrance Day was their day for actually remembering the people who'd died alongside them and what they'd been through themselves. So at that time, as someone who was too young to have shared that experience, I was an observer rather than a participant and it would have been a bloody cheek to have pretended otherwise. And I think that perspective has carried on to this day. The other thing is that forty years ago people were far more subdued about everything. Maybe a few days before the 11th you'd see some people wearing poppies, then for the day itself most people would, but other than the service from the Cenotaph broadcast on TV, that was about it. There was a quiet understated dignity there.

But all that seemed to change somewhere in the late 80s / early 90s. Perhaps that's because as the older generation died out there was a fear that Remembrance Day would die with them. So the whole tone changed and it almost seemed to be promoted as an event. Suddenly there was far more of a fuss and dance about 'remembering'. I mean, no football team would have ever dreamed of having poppy symbols stitched into the shirts when I was a boy because I'm quite sure it would have been regarded as the height of bad taste.  But now it's apparently become mandatory and woe betide any team that doesn't conform. Why is that? Is it because we presume to remember the 'heroes' of WW2 better than they remembered themselves?  And as you see I"m putting 'heroes' into inverted commas  - and that's because I"m thinking of a schoolmaster I had who, although he'd parachuted into Arnhem 20 years earlier, was a well-dodgy sadist with questionable sexual proclivities who was as far from being a hero as it was possible to get! My point is that the people being put on this pedestal  were just people - good, bad, willing, unwilling, who just did what they had to do. And I've no doubt whatsoever that the kids today faced with same circumstances would do the same. So that's why I"m not sure that this almost deification of the war generations is either healthy or dignified.

Anyway, my arms are getting tired so I'm going to stop digging......I'm very torn on this one...

[walshie]

Whether they wanted to go or not, whether they were nice people or not, they went - and offered up their all which is a hell of a lot more than most people nowadays would do. 

This year is the 100th anniversary of the end of a war that killed 16 million people. That number will never fade, 100, 200 or 300 years later.

Do you really think the current crop would go and do it if they had to? It would be against their human rights/political views/religion or some nonsense that means they can continue to take from this country without giving anything back.

As you said yourself, if you don't agree with poppy wearing and/or don't think the soldiers that died were worth 2 minutes of your time once a year, best not say anything at all.

Edited October 31, 2018 by walshie

[Retsdon]

18 minutes ago, walshie said:

This year is the 100th anniversary of the end of a war that killed 16 million people.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Infantry-Knew-1914-1919-Chronicle/dp/0349106355/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541004032&sr=8-1&keywords=the+war+the+infantry+knew

If you haven't yet read it, it comes recommended.

Sorry...

[Vince Green]

As Walshie says, Its going to be a big one this year. I really hope they don't over cook it

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Well Walshie, I'm not sure that most were heroes so much as people who just did what they had to do when it was put in front of them. I don't know. I think it's that when I was younger pretty much every adult I knew had been in uniform during WW2, and a fair few of the older ones in WW1. So Remembrance Day was their day for actually remembering the people who'd died alongside them and what they'd been through themselves. So at that time, as someone who was too young to have shared that experience, I was an observer rather than a participant and it would have been a bloody cheek to have pretended otherwise. And I think that perspective has carried on to this day. The other thing is that forty years ago people were far more subdued about everything. Maybe a few days before the 11th you'd see some people wearing poppies, then for the day itself most people would, but other than the service from the Cenotaph broadcast on TV, that was about it. There was a quiet understated dignity there.

But all that seemed to change somewhere in the late 80s / early 90s. Perhaps that's because as the older generation died out there was a fear that Remembrance Day would die with them. So the whole tone changed and it almost seemed to be promoted as an event. Suddenly there was far more of a fuss and dance about 'remembering'. I mean, no football team would have ever dreamed of having poppy symbols stitched into the shirts when I was a boy because I'm quite sure it would have been regarded as the height of bad taste.  But now it's apparently become mandatory and woe betide any team that doesn't conform. Why is that? Is it because we presume to remember the 'heroes' of WW2 better than they remembered themselves?  And as you see I"m putting 'heroes' into inverted commas  - and that's because I"m thinking of a schoolmaster I had who, although he'd parachuted into Arnhem 20 years earlier, was a well-dodgy sadist with questionable sexual proclivities who was as far from being a hero as it was possible to get! My point is that the people being put on this pedestal  were just people - good, bad, willing, unwilling, who just did what they had to do. And I've no doubt whatsoever that the kids today faced with same circumstances would do the same. So that's why I"m not sure that this almost deification of the war generations is either healthy or dignified.

Anyway, my arms are getting tired so I'm going to stop digging......I'm very torn on this one...

Remembrance day obviously to you means something completely different than it does to me.

[stumfelter]

8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Remembrance day obviously to you means something completely different than it does to me.

And me.

[henry d]

I don`t think it is a modern thing, as soon as I read your post I was reminded of Henry the fifth.

Quote

He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

I think a lot of miunderstanding on forums comes from the lack of being able to speak face to face and a lack of time/space to explain fully our feelings about a subject.

I had hoped to be with a few pals at the cenotaph but unfortunately we will not be "comparing scars" this year

[Muddy Funker]

On 30/10/2018 at 17:52, wymberley said:

The English teacher wasn't up to much, then.

😂

[Dekers]

I think it important to note that whilst Remembrance Sunday has its roots in WW1 and WW2, it is held in the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth of Nations as a day "to commemorate the contribution of British and Commonwealth military and civilian servicemen and women in the two World Wars and later conflicts!"

 

 

[CharlieT]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

 There was a quiet understated dignity there.

 Suddenly there was far more of a fuss and dance about 'remembering'.

I mean, no football team would have ever dreamed of having poppy symbols stitched into the shirts when I was a boy because I'm quite sure it would have been regarded as the height of bad taste.  But now it's apparently become mandatory and woe betide any team that doesn't conform. 

Why is that? Is it because we presume to remember the 'heroes' of WW2 better than they  So that's why I"m not sure that this almost deification of the war generations is either healthy or dignified.

I'm very torn on this one...

Retsdon

I, at least, fully understand where you are coming from.

 

Having been born during WW2 myself, in which I should add all my male relatives fought, I cannot recall any of them or for that matter anyone of that generation making an undignified fuss over Remembrance Sunday. Rather, they would quietly wear their poppy with dignified somber reflection for the week before and keep their own council.

Father, typical of that generation, never once mentioned it, he just made a generous donation to the appeal and fixed one of those wax poppies they used to sell to the front grill of his car.

Far too much undignified emotional outpouring these days. 

 

[Scully]

I wasn't going to comment at all and just get on with wearing my poppy as usual, but I can see where Retsdon is coming from. 

I cringe a bit when the term 'heroes' is bandied about willy nilly regarding those who gave their lives in either of the World Wars. My Grandad served in the Royal Artillery during the Great War and certainly didn't regard himself as a hero, and once the euphoria had worn off, of those very first volunteers who marched off to give the hun a bloody nose and be back home in time for christmas, I doubt many of those who managed to survive to see 1916 did, and especially after conscription became necessary. 

A good friends Grandad was literally blown to smithereens and what was left of him never recovered, and is still out there somewhere in Flanders. Nothing glorious or heroic in that; merely a matter of bad luck. My friend went out to Flanders earlier this year to commemorate his death on the actual day he was killed, and very moving it was indeed. 

My Dad and his twin brother served with the Royal Artillery in the next world war, although the conflict on a world wide scale had ended before they were actually shipped off, but neither of them volunteered, they were conscripted so therefore had little choice. I do know that all my grandad wanted was to come home, as did my Dad. They were just ordinary blokes who had no choice but to serve, and when I hear the term 'heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice' it makes me cringe. Some of them may well have been heroes, but the vast majority were just blokes who more accurately didn't sacrifice themselves but were sacrificed by others. 

As for this generation, I also get a bit tired when they are ridiculed as regards their capabilities to step up if the need ever arises. Some may be feckless, feral or cosseted, but this generation doesn't have the monopoly on that, and I have no doubt that if needs be they'll be capable. I sincerely hope the need never arises.

Meanwhile I'll be wearing my poppy with pride.....but don't let anyone tell you that you must. 

 

 

[welsh1]

I don't care if you don't want to wear a poppy, and i don't care if you don't want to stand for a mere 2 minutes of your hectic life to remember those that don't have the opportunity to have that hectic life.

I will march and i will stand in silence to remember all those killed in all conflicts, i will remember friends and colleges who paid the ultimate price for serving their country.

Just remember that the freedoms you take for granted and the choice you have to not remember the fallen, was given to you by those very people you ignore.

[walshie]

10 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

I don't care if you don't want to wear a poppy, and i don't care if you don't want to stand for a mere 2 minutes of your hectic life to remember those that don't have the opportunity to have that hectic life.

I will march and i will stand in silence to remember all those killed in all conflicts, i will remember friends and colleges who paid the ultimate price for serving their country.

Just remember that the freedoms you take for granted and the choice you have to not remember the fallen, was given to you by those very people you ignore.

👍👍👍

[Grandalf]

45 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

I don't care if you don't want to wear a poppy, and i don't care if you don't want to stand for a mere 2 minutes of your hectic life to remember those that don't have the opportunity to have that hectic life.

I will march and i will stand in silence to remember all those killed in all conflicts, i will remember friends and colleges who paid the ultimate price for serving their country.

Just remember that the freedoms you take for granted and the choice you have to not remember the fallen, was given to you by those very people you ignore.

Well said Sir.

[henry d]

13 hours ago, Scully said:

I wasn't going to comment at all and just get on with wearing my poppy as usual, but I can see where Retsdon is coming from. 

I cringe a bit when the term 'heroes' is bandied about willy nilly regarding those who gave their lives in either of the World Wars. My Grandad served in the Royal Artillery during the Great War and certainly didn't regard himself as a hero, and once the euphoria had worn off, of those very first volunteers who marched off to give the hun a bloody nose and be back home in time for christmas, I doubt many of those who managed to survive to see 1916 did, and especially after conscription became necessary. 

A good friends Grandad was literally blown to smithereens and what was left of him never recovered, and is still out there somewhere in Flanders. Nothing glorious or heroic in that; merely a matter of bad luck. My friend went out to Flanders earlier this year to commemorate his death on the actual day he was killed, and very moving it was indeed. 

My Dad and his twin brother served with the Royal Artillery in the next world war, although the conflict on a world wide scale had ended before they were actually shipped off, but neither of them volunteered, they were conscripted so therefore had little choice. I do know that all my grandad wanted was to come home, as did my Dad. They were just ordinary blokes who had no choice but to serve, and when I hear the term 'heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice' it makes me cringe. Some of them may well have been heroes, but the vast majority were just blokes who more accurately didn't sacrifice themselves but were sacrificed by others. 

As for this generation, I also get a bit tired when they are ridiculed as regards their capabilities to step up if the need ever arises. Some may be feckless, feral or cosseted, but this generation doesn't have the monopoly on that, and I have no doubt that if needs be they'll be capable. I sincerely hope the need never arises.

Meanwhile I'll be wearing my poppy with pride.....but don't let anyone tell you that you must.

Interesting post and sums up a lot of what I feel too, thanks for posting.

What then is a hero and who decides? One can be in awe of someone who stands firm in the face of danger of whatever kind, but is it heroic? Laches was asked what is courage by Socrates and gave the previous answer, Socrates countered that a soldier who stood firm out of reckless confidence could be killed or get others harmed when he could save himself for another time when the outcome may mean victory. Could it be that we label those who were forced, in one way or another, to go over the top to almost certain death, heroes so that we expunge our guilt at asking them to do such a thing on our behalf? I certainly feel guilt that Lt. Gavazzi of the Argentinian air force died (shot down by his own forces) after damaging our ship and I`m not sure why, yet his family probably think he is a hero for facing the fate of his colleagues in the first wave of aircraft.

Concerning warfare in the present day; I would not want to be involved in it. The horrendousness of the middle east wars and the unthinkableness of a N/B/C war makes me shudder and it is sad that we cannot forgive or forget the past.

[Dekers]

I am thankful to everyone in the past, and I'm sure hereafter, that has gone out to help/protect my future.

Nobody is making me wear a Poppy, I wear it with pride and gratitude at what many others have done for me, and I have no problem spending 2 minutes of my life reflecting either!!

[ditchman]

Always treat 11 th of the 11th...as a punctuation mark of the year....it is there to remember all involved in conflict past and present...........but particular the months Britian "grew" up as a result of the stupidness of the first world war..."Pals battalions ...we will be home by christmas....give the hun a good thrashing....etc"

Boys and girls went to war with no knowledge of the world they lived in........they came home very different......that was when Britain started to change from one age to another..

i always stop on the 11th of the 11th....and give respect.........

[rimfire4969]

13 hours ago, welsh1 said:

I don't care if you don't want to wear a poppy, and i don't care if you don't want to stand for a mere 2 minutes of your hectic life to remember those that don't have the opportunity to have that hectic life.

I will march and i will stand in silence to remember all those killed in all conflicts, i will remember friends and colleges who paid the ultimate price for serving their country.

Just remember that the freedoms you take for granted and the choice you have to not remember the fallen, was given to you by those very people you ignore.

Extremely well put. 

[walshie]

I think some of the above members who are trying to find a dictionary definition of "hero" are missing the point entirely.