Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are you really interested ?
Or are you like most remainers, just looking for some 'sport' a way to have a wry chuckle to yourselves as the democracy and freedoms you profess to hold dear get thrown out the window and urinated on ?

Why so smug ? Is the whole EU project that important to you ?
Is globalism your dream socialist nirvana ?
What about the people that dont want that, are their dreams just plain wrong ? Uneducated ?
The opposite side of the progressive left wing ideals are considered somehow morally inept, yet the freedom of expression and individuality that is championed by them, doesnt seem to extend to the political right for some reason.

We had a vote, leave won, the result was going to be respected, the house voted that it would, the manifestos spouted it would , the leaders of both main parties said it would.
Leave means leave, No deal is better than a bad deal, once in a lifetime.
If you think its funny, and you want to continue living in this quagmire, the jokes on you.

But if you really want to know my opinion, although most people have already stated theirs, as have I.
Ill simplify it for you.
There will be a result of the process that will keep the majority happy.
Or there will be a result that will keep the minority happy.

Which one do you prefer?

Genuinely interested.

Certainly not sporting or trying to be smug. There is much to be despised about the EU project.

Interesting point about globalism, but it seems a bit of a paradox to me when it comes to Brexit? I'm not a socialist. I think the globalism thing comes back down to personal gains, some people gain from it, neutral for some, and some lose out from it.

Far from funny, it's bordering on hopeless in my opinion and fear Brexit will be used as an excuse to allow all manner of other things to go to the dogs.

I'd prefer that the whole thing get's put to bed once and for all but can't see that happening. Given a choice between the TM deal or no deal I'd prefer no deal because being stuck in the EU with no say on future direction or decisions seems like the worst kind of hell to me.

[Mice!]

I doubt we know everything that is going on, I'm still hoping that TM is pulling a master stroke, that there has been a plan all along, Europe isn't looking like they want to play nice, why would they when other countries are watching and waiting. Why wouldn't others follow suit and exit the failing superstate project.

Not long now, must get some fire works.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I doubt we know everything that is going on, I'm still hoping that TM is pulling a master stroke, that there has been a plan all along,

My thoughts too.
It would explain a lot of things.

[Vince Green]

In my mind the EU is the Titanic and Brexit is our lifeboat. To continue the analogy, the European Bank (aka Bundesbank) is the iceberg.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Vince Green

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Given a choice between the TM deal or no deal I'd prefer no deal because being stuck in the EU with no say on future direction or decisions seems like the worst kind of hell to me.

Well, the problem all along has been that although you might not be stuck in the EU, you're stuck with the EU. The UK is about to find out what any Central or South American country, or any Eastern European country, or any S.E. Asian country could tell it about the USA, Russia, or China. When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies - even when you're not legally bound to do so - because otherwise you can't do business with them and if you don't do business with them you're down the tubes. So 'deal or 'no deal',  for a very long time in the future the UK is going to have to be in negotiation with the EU and pretending that this reality is not the case won't make it any less real no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

And there's another thing. Britons whose memories of life outside the EU date from 40+ years ago are about discover that the world in 2020 is as different to the world in 1970 as was the world in 1970 to the world in 1930. In fact, it's probably even more different in that the whole globe is now divvied up into massive regional trading blocs. Britain used to have it's own private trade bloc called the Empire /Commonwealth, but that refuge no longer exists in any shape or form. We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Finally. Pretty much every single trade agreement that Britain has with a 3rd party country has been negotiated over the last 40 years using the muscle of the EU, and the terms and benefits apply to Britain solely because of her EU membership. Of course, it;s possible to roll some of those terms over, for example like the Continuation Agreement on conformity assessment that the UK recently signed with the USA, but we would need to be very naive indeed not to realize that going forward our isolation will be taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's the real world.

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Retsdon

[12gauge82]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Well, the problem all along has been that although you might not be stuck in the EU, you're stuck with the EU. The UK is about to find out what any Central or South American country, or any Eastern European country, or any S.E. Asian country could tell it about the USA, Russia, or China. When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies - even when you're not legally bound to do so - because otherwise you can't do business with them and if you don't do business with them you're down the tubes. So 'deal or 'no deal',  for a very long time in the future the UK is going to have to be in negotiation with the EU and pretending that this reality is not the case won't make it any less real no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

And there's another thing. Britons whose memories of life outside the EU date from 40+ years ago are about discover that the world in 2020 is as different to the world in 1970 as was the world in 1970 to the world in 1930. In fact, it's probably even more different in that the whole globe is now divvied up into massive regional trading blocs. Britain used to have it's own private trade bloc called the Empire /Commonwealth, but that refuge no longer exists in any shape or form. We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Finally. Pretty much every single trade agreement that Britain has with a 3rd party country has been negotiated over the last 40 years using the muscle of the EU, and the terms and benefits apply to Britain solely because of her EU membership. Of course, it;s possible to roll some of those terms over, for example like the Continuation Agreement on conformity assessment that the UK recently signed with the USA, but we would need to be very naive indeed not to realize that going forward our isolation will be taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's the real world.

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

 

The thing is, even if your assessment is correct, (which I personally don't believe it is), brexit is now not about that, the very basis of our country and the civilized world is based on democracy, the people were asked and the answer has been given, it was by far the largest democratic vote this country has ever taken and it must now be enacted, if it isn't, the ensuing damage to the very core and fibre that our society is built on will be irreparably damaged forever, it is far more important than a trade deal!

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies -

While i see where your coming from were not dealing with Russia America or China, were dealing with Europe, a fractured superstate not all singing from the same hymn sheet, as others have already said Europe is failing on the brink of recession if not already in it.

and they have tried at least three times to get our small insignificant Island to tow the line, Napoleon and WW1 & WW2

We haven't bent over yet.

[TriBsa]

32 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Er no. We're going to be living next door, seperated by a waterway. Glancing across, we're going to see that her standard of living has declined without our contributions to the household budget. Some kids are getting increasingly unruly and threatening to move out. The place is falling apart. Desperate for company she is now eyeing up Abdul from Turkey to provide the unmentionables, her pulling power not being what it once was.

Edited March 4, 2019 by TriBsa

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, TriBsa said:

Er no. We're going to be living next door, seperated by a waterway. Glancing across, we're going to see that her standard of living has declined without our contributions to the household budget. Some kids are getting increasingly unruly and threatening to move out. The place is falling apart. Desperate for company she is now eyeing up Abdul from Turkey to provide the unmentionables, her pulling power not being what it once was.

Nicely put.

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

Doom , apocalypse , fear , can you not think of any other stuff to say about Brexit ?
You have a lot (of pessimistic things) to say about it , considering you dont even live in the UK !

Try this, UK GDP is 2.8 tr , the same as India.
The total of all 28 EU countries is 18 tr, when we go its down to 15 tr , if its lucky to hold that, as its been effectively static since 2009.
Compare that to the US ,currently standing at £20 tr and rising year on year for the past 50 years, despite recessions.
India, rising year on year, doubling its GDP in the last 10 years !
China , tripling its GDP in 10 years to be world no 2 at £13 tr.

Basically unless you have a tinpot government or are war ravaged, most world nations wealth is on the rise, whilst here in the EU we have a static growth rate with many countries in recession or teetering on the edge of it, the EU is in decline.FACT.
But no you say, lets stay in this leaky tub and ride the storm, why would you want to deal with countries like the US and China, they might make us buy chlorinated chicken !
If you cant see a trade deal with any number of upwardly mobile, non EU countries as being a good idea, I cant help you.

Let me state this again to be very clear. The EU is in decline, and its down to poor management.
They need us to stay in for financial support primarily, these costs will rise, this is also a FACT.
Once we are free of the bloc, we can freely trade with other upwardly mobile nations, this will enhance the wealth and attraction of good migrants, further harming the prosperity of the EU.
Other EU countries will doubtless notice and begin their own extraction battle with Brussels.
So stay in and be dragged down, or break free and become the Singapore of Europe ?
Ther is no contest.

Now doesnt that sound better than your version ?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Well, the problem all along has been that although you might not be stuck in the EU, you're stuck with the EU. The UK is about to find out what any Central or South American country, or any Eastern European country, or any S.E. Asian country could tell it about the USA, Russia, or China. When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies - even when you're not legally bound to do so - because otherwise you can't do business with them and if you don't do business with them you're down the tubes. So 'deal or 'no deal',  for a very long time in the future the UK is going to have to be in negotiation with the EU and pretending that this reality is not the case won't make it any less real no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

And there's another thing. Britons whose memories of life outside the EU date from 40+ years ago are about discover that the world in 2020 is as different to the world in 1970 as was the world in 1970 to the world in 1930. In fact, it's probably even more different in that the whole globe is now divvied up into massive regional trading blocs. Britain used to have it's own private trade bloc called the Empire /Commonwealth, but that refuge no longer exists in any shape or form. We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Finally. Pretty much every single trade agreement that Britain has with a 3rd party country has been negotiated over the last 40 years using the muscle of the EU, and the terms and benefits apply to Britain solely because of her EU membership. Of course, it;s possible to roll some of those terms over, for example like the Continuation Agreement on conformity assessment that the UK recently signed with the USA, but we would need to be very naive indeed not to realize that going forward our isolation will be taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's the real world.

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

 

^^^^ exactly. Rather than swallowing up just the rules of the EU you can add to that the rules of other markets. Taking products that within the EU we could resist as harming our own production and signing up to visa deals with the third world. Just like the divorced bloke we will get by.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Well, the problem all along has been that although you might not be stuck in the EU, you're stuck with the EU. The UK is about to find out what any Central or South American country, or any Eastern European country, or any S.E. Asian country could tell it about the USA, Russia, or China. When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies - even when you're not legally bound to do so - because otherwise you can't do business with them and if you don't do business with them you're down the tubes. So 'deal or 'no deal',  for a very long time in the future the UK is going to have to be in negotiation with the EU and pretending that this reality is not the case won't make it any less real no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

And there's another thing. Britons whose memories of life outside the EU date from 40+ years ago are about discover that the world in 2020 is as different to the world in 1970 as was the world in 1970 to the world in 1930. In fact, it's probably even more different in that the whole globe is now divvied up into massive regional trading blocs. Britain used to have it's own private trade bloc called the Empire /Commonwealth, but that refuge no longer exists in any shape or form. We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Finally. Pretty much every single trade agreement that Britain has with a 3rd party country has been negotiated over the last 40 years using the muscle of the EU, and the terms and benefits apply to Britain solely because of her EU membership. Of course, it;s possible to roll some of those terms over, for example like the Continuation Agreement on conformity assessment that the UK recently signed with the USA, but we would need to be very naive indeed not to realize that going forward our isolation will be taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's the real world.

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

 

So basically we can't survive without the EU? What a crock of poop! 

[PhilR]

A couple of very long, interesting articles written by Betsy M MacKay MA MSc have appeared on my Facebook page from fellow Brexiteers. 

She is very anti EU and if half of what she says is true then we're in deep doo doo if we don't get out.

Might be worth Googling her and having a read.   

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Like this?

Workers’ rights:

The UK does not depend on the EU for workers rights. Trade Unions became legal in the UK in 1871; Modern Pensions began in 1908; Holiday Pay was introduced in 1938; Equal pay was introduced in 1970; Race Discrimination Act was introduced in 1965; Sex Discrimination act was introduced in 1975. Maternity Rights in the UK are longer and better paid than in EU Law; and while EU Law provides 4 weeks holidays, the UK provides between 5 and 6 weeks. While it is true that some work benefits were introduced after the UK joined the EU’s Social Chapter in 1997 and UK law now emanates from the EU, it is equally true that many people today are working in the UK on low wages and on zero hours contracts. These contracts favour the employers over the employees and the number of workers on zero-hours contracts has increased by more than 100,000 over the past 12 months to well over 800,000 for the first time, official figures show. Employers are using cheap casual labour to cut costs and avoid commitments to their workforce. Roughly 50 per cent of large businesses (those with 250 + employees) have indicated that they use zero-hours contracts, compared with only 10 per cent of small businesses (fewer than 20 employees). There is no doubt that big businesses in the UK today, and indeed across the EU, have been benefiting from the insecurity and misery caused by ‘Zero hours contracts’ which are contracts of employment which do not specify any number of hours that the employee will be required to work and do not guarantee any work at all.

There undoubtedly has been a welter of EU legislation covering consumer protection, product safety, enhanced policing, food labeling, bans on growth hormones, trade ties, environmental legislation, price, transparency, work placements, some of it more helpful than others.

Free Movement of People:

With regard to the free movement of people and uncontrolled EU immigration, many UK residents are concerned that recent levels of EU immigration has been detrimental for the NHS, schools, housing and national security. If the UK does vote to leave the EU, then the government could immediately seek to introduce work permits for EU immigrants, and only accept workers with skills which are required in the UK. Net immigration to the UK rose to 333,000 in 2015, according to Office for National Statistics estimates - the second highest figure on record. The system currently used by the government was designed to count tourists and it has emerged that there is a difference of more than 1.2 million between the official figures for the number of EU nationals moving to Britain in the past five years, estimated by the Office for National Statistics (ONS), and the actual number of National Insurance numbers which have been issued to those from the EU during the same period. Recently a study by the Bank of England found that increasing immigration has indeed driven down wages; most especially in low wage sectors such as catering, hotels and social care. In May 2015 the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney warned that the current inflow of foreign workers was holding down wages. There is widespread anecdotal evidence that mass immigration is harming those who are on low pay and wage growth is being held back.

Healthcare:

Professor Angus Dalgleish, the principal of the Cancer Vaccine Institute, has stated that the NHS is being bled dry of resources by health tourists denied care at home. Cancer treatment can cost £200,000 and, under Brussels rules, Britain has to offer it to all EU nationals Professor Dalgleish says this partly explains the NHS's £3 billion deficit. He also states that the Government has hindered progress of research into key disease areas 'by blindly adhering to EU directives'.

Professor Dalgleish, a melanoma expert of global renown has stated that

‘Our membership of the EU is putting an intolerable strain on our NHS. The NHS is on its knees and could collapse completely. NHS Trusts were not prepared for the millions of EU migrants who have poured into Britain because the Government estimate was nowhere near the reality. GP services are collapsing under the huge number of people they are having to treat and this has led to less than 20 per cent of students wanting to become GPs. Britain is attracting thousands of health tourists from across the EU who cannot get certain drugs or treatments in their home country so come to Britain and demand them as EU citizens. Cancer treatment can cost £200,000 a year per patient and while we remain in the EU, Britain has to offer treatment for any EU citizen who comes here so as to not discriminate.’

Pensions:

Edi Truell, former chairman of the London Pension Fund Authority and founder of the Pension Insurance Corporation, has said that he is backing a Brexit to protect British pensions. His stark warning over the terrible cost of staying in the EU comes amid further revelations that Brussels wants to take control of the British tax system with a European tax code imposed across the 28 member states. Mr Truell, now chief executive of Disruptive Capital Finance but who was in charge of one of Britain’s biggest public sector pension pots covering 130,000 people and with £18 billion worth of assets, said that Brussels will demand “15 times the entire British defence budget” from the UK when it takes control. Mr Truell said: “I am extremely concerned about the impact the European Commission is going to have on Britain pension funds…… the European Commission is going to force us to spend 15 times our entire annual defence budget to satisfy the EU’s pension desires.”

The current budget for defending Britain is £35 billion.

Peace in Europe:

The EU was founded on deceit and lies. Jean Monnet one of the founding fathers of the EU stated that,

”Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

The EU's founding fathers, distrusted democracy, which they believed had brought dictators and demagogues to power, and they were determined that their European Project would create a post-democratic new world order, imposed by stealth step by step on their blissfully ignorant populations. Instead of which the EU Commission has itself become the dictatorial power that is crippling the EU. It is not the EU which has kept the peace these last 60+ years – it is Nato which has kept and still keeps the peace, despite the EU Commission President, Jean Claude Junker’s burning desire for an EU Army. When the UK, acceded to the EEC , its post democratic authoritarian foundations, which we have all belatedly come to recognise, were already in place, and even from the outset there was no possibility of changing or influencing this undemocratic anti- democratic institution into anything remotely resembling Parliamentary democracy.

Forty years after our accession to the EEC we can now clearly see what has resulted from the profoundly undemocratic European Project. Right across Europe, the European project is disintegrating with remarkable speed. There is mass unemployment and social disorder, as a result of the utterly disastrous Euro experiment. Instead of Cameron’s fantasy of peace and order, brought about by the EU, we are now seeing the rise of extremist parties right across the EU in Greece, Sweden, France, Austria, and even in Germany, a right wing party called Alternative für Deutschland, AfD has gained strong support in reaction to Angela Merkel’s deliberate swamping of Germany with mass immigration.

Any alleged benefits of a European Union, ruled by the unaccountable unelected irremovable EU Commission, have faded, and across EU there are riots, marches, anarchy and social unrest.

Environmental Legislation:

It has long been suspected that the so called Global Warming Industry has been more about generating profit than it ever was about generating so-called ‘green energy’. Now in the UK we have in excess of 3500 wind turbines, ugly blots on the landscape, and which fail to produce very much power. These wind turbines are notoriously inefficient and often have to be switched off when the wind is too high. They create low level noise nuisance which can drive near neighbours to distraction and the environmental noise pollution adversely impacts on people's health. They emit pulsating noise, intermittently, tonal qualities, amplitude modulation and low frequency noise which has produced unwanted impacts on health, according to the World Health Organizations' guidelines. Not to mention many birds are killed by wind farms.

Recycling:

A research paper from the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has revealed that most managers at plants that recycle rubbish for industrial use say that at best ‘some’ – and in other cases ‘hardly any’ – of the waste sent to them is usable.

Single market:

Membership of the single market has imposed far too many regulations on Britain, in exchange for too few opportunities within European markets, and Britain’s trade with countries outside Europe would be much higher if it left. Wolfgang Münchau of the Financial Times has argued that the single market has delivered little discernible macroeconomic benefit, and that the eurozone will overtake the single market as the organising force within the EU, and that therefore there is no good reason to remain in the EU.

Travel:

There will still be freedom to live, work and travel within EU, even if different conditions apply. We in the UK are able to travel freely around the world with no great hardship and even if visas are required this will be a price worth paying for a return of our freedoms as a sovereign nation.

Study and Travel:

Traditionally some students have always gone overseas to study and travel worldwide and such programmes will continue after Brexit. The International Association for the Exchange of Students for Technical Experience (IAESTE) is an independent, non-profit and non-political student exchange organisation. Since its inception, IAESTE has exchanged more than 350,000 students worldwide, playing a key role in the development of young engineers and scientists. WISE is also a non-profit organization providing international exchange opportunities to students, youth and adults. Student Exchange Australia New Zealand Ltd has long established relationships with international partners. There are myriad opportunities for students to travel and work internationally. At present higher education is in huge demand and so even if fewer EU students come here to study, then this presents greater opportunities for home students to study, and universities would not suffer financially. Universities may also be able to avoid EU regulations on clinical trials, which some argue has had a very damaging effect on research and innovation.

International security:

Rob Wainwright, chief of the EU's police agency Europol, said the agency believed between 3,000 and 5,000 jihadists have been able to slip back into Europe after training with ISIS in the Middle East. Sir Richard Dearlove, former Head of MI6 said that leaving the EU would improve Britain’s security and said that Britain’s borders could be strengthened in the event of a Brexit and extremists could be more easily deported, moves which he said were “security gains” with little apparent downside.

According to a February 2016 report, “Brexit is not the doomsday scenario that some EU officials and Europhile commentators and analysts make it out to be. The EU’s deplorable condition is largely of its own making, most notably because of its many botched policies (ranging from the bungled euro project and its failure to secure the EU’s external borders, to its unresponsiveness to the rising tide of nationalist sentiments). Brexit should be considered the consequence of the EU’s many failed policies, rather than the cause of the EU’s problems. It is therefore important for responsible EU officials and European leaders not to paint the devil on the wall by suggesting that Brexit will only benefit Russia or bring the EU (and Europe in general) closer to war. Not only are these apocalyptic visions imaginary, but they are also irresponsible and counterproductive. If managed well, Brexit will not in any way undermine the EU’s security. …The best choice for both the EU and the UK, is offering opportunities to deepen security and defence integration within a solid EU context for committed member states, while keeping open the option of ad hoc cooperation with like-minded external partners such as the UK and the USA .” (clingendael.nl)

Democracy in the EU:

Democracy died long ago when traitors like Harold MacMillan and Edward Heath deliberately conned the UK public into joining the EEC Common Market. They knew then, and persuaded the Cabinet of the 1960s to keep secret from the UK public the fact that sovereignty would pass to Brussels. It was intended that we would never find out until it was too late. The EU only benefits political elites, (especially in Brussels), the Bilderberg group, the IMF, big businesses and big banks - all of whom are not only involved in stealthily building the EU Superstate, but also involved in building the New World Order. As stated before, the EU's founding fathers, distrusted democracy, which they believed had brought dictators and demagogues to power, and they were determined that their European Project would create a post-democratic new world order, imposed by stealth step by step on their blissfully ignorant populations.

Westminster used to be a Parliament where we were governed for the people by the people. However, ever after we in the UK were misled into the EEC, which became the EC and then the EU; the process of 'hollowing out ' our Westminster Parliament began. Westminster now is mainly an administrative centre for the EU. Around 60% of our laws in the UK now have their origins in the EU Commission. The unelected unaccountable irremovable EU Commission proposes and initiates all EU Laws, Directives and Regulations. Westminster nowadays mostly brings EU Laws, Regulations and Directives into force in the UK. 'Hollowing out ' is being done in all other National Parliaments across the EU, as well; and power is passing continuously to Brussels. The 'powers that be' never intended the UK populace to find out what successive traitorous governments had done. But we have found out....and now we MUST get out of EU ASAP.

Wolfgang Kowalsky states that “as long as the proponents of European integration do not come up with a clear vision or at least some ideas on how to achieve democratic progress, the legitimacy of EU institutions and processes will further decline and the usual remedy of more and better communication will not help in avoiding the abyss”.

Trade deals post Brexit:

There is a free-trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in our out of the euro or EU. The largest sources of imports into the EU are Russia, China and the USA. They are not members of the Single Market – they do not even have preferential trade deals. Yet they sell huge quantities of goods into the Single Market. Dozens of countries around the world trade successfully with Europe – and so will Britain after Brexit.

Roger Bootle, a former Group Chief Economist for HSBC bank, said that recent figures from the Treasury suggesting a new recession if Britain votes to leave the European Union (EU) should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. He also rubbished the idea that Britain could not survive outside the EU, adding that if Britain could not arrange a trade deal with Brussels, UK manufacturers would have to pay a four per cent tariff to export to the single market, a figure which is “not a game changer”. He stated that “Already the pound has fallen by more than that this year.”

Last month, a senior German economist also said that Brexit would not be an economic disaster, and could in fact lead to a “booming Britain”.

Martin Hüfner, a former Chief Economist at Germany’s second largest bank HVB, said “markets would adapt to new circumstances, and the City of London would still be Europe’s premier financial centre due to the good people who work there, the English language and the geographical proximity to New York.”

Professor Congdon in his publication ‘How much does membership of the European Union cost Britain?’ points out that the direct costs are bad enough, and forever rising, and that HM Treasury seems completely at sea in their inability to understand or forecast the actual amount of money we are committed to spending on membership. Indeed the whole subject is approached incompetently and dishonestly by the Government. Professor Congdon also points out that the Treasury underestimated our net contribution to the 2012/13 budget by 40%; and in February 2013 Prime Minister David Cameron crowed about another great ‘diplomatic triumph’ (in a long line of such ‘triumphs’) when he announced that for the first time a reduction had been negotiated in the EU budget. It later emerged that in fact EU finance ministers had agreed an increase of £6.2 billion in one year. If this is not bad enough, the indirect costs on the economy are much worse. These include the Common Agricultural Policy and over-regulation, to name just two.

Professor Congdon calculates the total direct and indirect costs on the economy at an incredible and scandalous 11½% of GDP, or a staggering £185 billion per annum

Border Control post Brexit:

As an island nation, we can control our borders. But if we stay in, we can expect Germany to give EU passports to a million migrants, who are then free to come to the UK. In fact at present 508 million people have an absolute right to come and live, work, be housed, claim benefits, use the NHS and our educational system. The EU is keen to admit Turkey, which would be the biggest and poorest EU state, allowing 75 million Turks the right to come to the UK. We must control our borders and have the right to decide who we want here in our own country. It is alleged that after Brexit we will have no voice in the European Commission, the European Council, or the European Parliament where laws are made. The fact of the matter is that we have very little influence whatsoever in any of those Institutions, as evidenced by David Cameron’s pitiful so called renegotiation. He achieved almost nothing.

The unelected unaccountable irremovable EU Commission propose and initiate all EU Laws, Directives and Legislation. You may say we have an EU Commissioner – but a fact not widely understood is that our EU Commissioner is not there to represent the UK to the EU but rather to represent the EU to the UK ; an entirely different thing.

The European Parliament cannot propose legislation and in fact is no more than a facade of democracy. Their only ability is to make minor amendments to the diktats of the EU Commission. The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law. Since David Cameron became Prime Minister in 2010, the UK has voted against 40 measures and lost all of them. This is 56% of all 72 measures that the UK has voted against since 1996. It is more losses than all the other Prime Ministers combined. Suffice to say that UK has negligible influence in the EU, and there will be even less as the EU continues to expand, and all the while being the second largest net contributor in the EU.

It is further alleged that we would lose agricultural and structural funding that has benefited areas of industrial decline throughout the UK regions. There is no such thing as European Money – not one penny belongs to the EU. We only receive less than 50% of our contributions back here in the UK. All EU Funding monies that are returned to the UK as grants, subsidies or structural funding have been paid for by UK Taxpayers – it is borrowed money at that, and adds to our grotesque National Debt now standing at in excess of 1.6 trillion pounds.

The EU was founded on deceit, lies and treachery, and David Cameron continues the EU tradition of lies………………… Jean Monnet – one of the founding fathers of the EU stated;

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”

Present President of the EU commission Jean Claude Juncker, stated that; "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

Mr Juncker has never hidden his view that the compromises and deals being worked out in EU meetings of leaders or ministers need to be protected from public scrutiny, by lies if necessary. He also has stated that “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”

It is alleged that we can we assist the union’s democratic renewal from within. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The EU is incapable of reform.

It is a juggernaut to destruction, of both itself and everything in its path. They have utterly lost touch with reality, not that they ever had much sense of reality. Have you ever seen the glass palaces the EU Commission and EU Parliament exist in? Do you know how much they spend on propaganda promoting EU? They spend more on propaganda than on fighting terrorism. The Belgian terrorists lived just a few kilometers from EU Institutions. Also do you realise that all 751 MEPs and their office staff & furniture, oscillate 12 times a year from Brussels to Strasbourg in France? Unimaginable costs, over & over & over again. 1st class travel, 1st class accommodation etc etc , month in month out, year in year out, decade in decade out. Did you know?

The Brussels HQ of the unelected Commission is absolutely massive! There is an enormous staff of so called civil servants, all on huge salaries, more or less tax free. They throw money at anything that they think will further their outward expansionist agenda & their inward further integrationist ambitions. The EU is a crazy insane money pit of corrupt dictatorship based upon the whims of the unelected, unaccountable, irremovable EU Commission. It is totally undemocratic, in every way. Monument to man's capacity of self deception, and worse, deception of the masses.

The 'powers that be' never intended the UK populace to find out what successive traitorous governments had done. But we have found out....and now we MUST get out of EU ASAP. There is no doubt that it is in our interests to get out of the corrupt, deceitful, profligate, undemocratic, anti democratic, political monstrosity which is the EU. We MUST lead the way out of the EU, to a new dawn and a new day of restored sovereignty and democracy. Please encourage everyone you know to actually go out and Vote Leave on June 23rd. We will NEVER get another chance.

[Eyefor]

WOW TC

Hat's off to you Sir  

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Betsy M MacKay MA MSc

6 minutes ago, Eyefor said:

WOW TC

Hat's off to you Sir  

Thank you!

Not my work, all down to Betsy M MacKay MA MSc

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Eyefor said:

WOW TC

Hat's off to you Sir  

Hes good at this typing lark isnt he ? 

[PhilR]

Thanks TC I spent ages trying to get that copied but failed, perhaps it's because I'm using my phone. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, PhilR said:

Thanks TC I spent ages trying to get that copied but failed, perhaps it's because I'm using my phone. 

Not a problem, it really is worth reading, she is very prudent.

[Yellow Bear]

16 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

she is very prudent.

NOT a la Broon I hope

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Blimey no, that was just the name of one of his old girlfriends!

Old ONE EYE and Prudence!

[bavarianbrit]

Well that"s the end of the local hand wash for my car then. Brits will not get out of bed for that sort of work.

IMO manufacturing is the only solid saleable commodity worldwide and we have shrunk ours to a level of invisibility so how do we survive going forward into the brave new world? not by white van manning each others services. Financials are moving in droves to Paris & Frankfurt.

BB

[DoolinDalton]

An excellent read...but will the usual suspects 'rubbish' this also?

[Newbie to this]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/237487

A new one, which will probably make no difference.

But worth signing. It was at 17025 when I signed and is rising quite fast.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Retsdon]

15 hours ago, TriBsa said:

We're going to be living next door, seperated by a waterway.

I wasn't talking about the EU. I was talking about former Commonwealth countries.

14 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Try this, UK GDP is 2.8 tr , the same as India.
The total of all 28 EU countries is 18 tr, when we go its down to 15 tr , if its lucky to hold that, as its been effectively static since 2009.
Compare that to the US ,currently standing at £20 tr and rising year on year for the past 50 years, despite recessions.
India, rising year on year, doubling its GDP in the last 10 years !
China , tripling its GDP in 10 years to be world no 2 at £13 tr.

GDP alone is largely a numbers game. Everything else being equal, the more people there are, the higher the GDP. Europe's population has been largely static for 30 years. http://worldpopulationreview.com/continents/europe-population/ . Compare that to America where in 2016 alone there were 43 million immigrants.https://cis.org/Report/US-Immigrant-Population-Hit-Record-437-Million-2016 and where the population has increased 30% over the last 20 years. If that's what you want fine, but come out and say it.

India and China? Population growth is a factor there too particularly in India. But you're not comparing apples with apples. Any of the 'developing' economies were loaded with GDP growth potential simply because they were coming off such a low base. In the town in Thailand where I live when I'm not in Saudi, twenty five years ago there were only about half a dozen paved roads in the entire town. Currently, down the road from my house they're  building a massive 6 lane bypass for all the new cars that have appeared over the past ten years. The growth has been eye-watering. And that's mirrored over much of the developing world. But now, China particularly has hit something of a wall and her GDP is growth is generated by building bridges to nowhere with borrowed money. Not an economic model you'd want to replicate - and anyway, does never-ending economic growth=happiness? Personally I don't think so.

Europe might be in decline, but that's largely down to an aging population and saturated personal economic needs. If you want to goose GDP by importing millions upon millions of hungry migrants, fair enough. But I don't really think that's what most people in the country, especially those who voted Brexit, actually want.