Extreme pheasant shooting

[button]

22 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Hamster if that was the case then surely the 100's of lightly pricked birds from every days shooting with go off and die, the countryside would be littered with dead pheasants and partridges and the shoots shooting 4-6 times a week would have nothing left by November? No these shoots are still doing 300-500 bird days in January so dismisses your point somewhat.

 

As I've said countless times these shoots make more of an effort to collect the birds at the end of each drive than most farm shoots and syndicates, they pay great sums for the best local pickers ups with up to 10 dogs in some cases. At up to £60 per bird they want everything they can in the game cart to ensure refunds are not asked for. a 100 birds not picked is £6000 lost on the books. Same as grouse shooting. Lets not forget about overages, if a team buy a 300 day and shoot 400 picked that is a £6000 bill to that team of guns. Commercial shoots are are business not a charity.

Most people would not know about these type of shoots if it was not for the internet, just like everything else it has given people opportunities to do things they were unaware of, buy things they never thought they could get out in the field giving many opportunities. But the most it has given people is the chance to bitch and moan about others.

I bet if I offered a free peg for a 500 bird extreme day on this site there wouldn't be many who wouldn't want to be considered for the chance? And if you shot and killed an 80 yard pheasant or a few you would remember them for the rest of your days. Thats what shooting is about to me taking memories home after every shoot day. That extreme shot whether on pigeons, ducks, geese, pheasant, partridge especially with mates is what everyone goes out to achieve. 180 at darts, 4 minute mile, 147 at snooker, 100mph in your car, 10 sec 100m, knockout in boxing.

 

100% correct

[London Best]

Just an ego trip then? Not sportsmanship?

[islandgun]

Pricked birds must be a great food source for birds such as Red Kite..😉

[Hamster]

51 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Hamster if that was the case then surely the 100's of lightly pricked birds from every days shooting with go off and die, the countryside would be littered with dead pheasants and partridges and the shoots shooting 4-6 times a week would have nothing left by November? No these shoots are still doing 300-500 bird days in January so dismisses your point somewhat.

 

As I've said countless times these shoots make more of an effort to collect the birds at the end of each drive than most farm shoots and syndicates, they pay great sums for the best local pickers ups with up to 10 dogs in some cases. At up to £60 per bird they want everything they can in the game cart to ensure refunds are not asked for. a 100 birds not picked is £6000 lost on the books. Same as grouse shooting. Lets not forget about overages, if a team buy a 300 day and shoot 400 picked that is a £6000 bill to that team of guns. Commercial shoots are are business not a charity.

Most people would not know about these type of shoots if it was not for the internet, just like everything else it has given people opportunities to do things they were unaware of, buy things they never thought they could get out in the field giving many opportunities. But the most it has given people is the chance to bitch and moan about others.

I bet if I offered a free peg for a 500 bird extreme day on this site there wouldn't be many who wouldn't want to be considered for the chance? And if you shot and killed an 80 yard pheasant or a few you would remember them for the rest of your days. Thats what shooting is about to me taking memories home after every shoot day. That extreme shot whether on pigeons, ducks, geese, pheasant, partridge especially with mates is what everyone goes out to achieve. 180 at darts, 4 minute mile, 147 at snooker, 100mph in your car, 10 sec 100m, knockout in boxing.

 

I wouldn’t be caught dead on such shoots.

Lightly pricked can mean pellet(s) just under the skin or a leg broken or bruised, don’t worry, you get to have another pop a few days later.

1 hour ago, button said:

I think regardless of the sport people will want to push the boundaries if not the interest goes, and if the birds are been killed cleanly what's the issue? I know there will be some wounded birds but that is the downside, if they are picked quickly and dispatched, let's not kid ourselves runners dont only happen on extreme shoots

I think the man pulling the trigger has to know their limitations and that is how I would judge a true sportsman 

I like to see the boundaries pushed

 

How do you work out hundreds lightly pricked, could there not be hundreds of clean misses?

It’s a matter of statistical probabilities, if you chuck 300 pellets at a hapless creature 80 yards away, a proportion WILL receive non lethal strikes that may kill them in agony days later or allow them the “sporting chance” of flying over our proud extreme boys once or thrice more. 

If you truly understood scatter gun characteristics you’d know the further out you get the more likely random single wounding strikes become. 

[button]

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

Just an ego trip then? Not sportsmanship?

So what is your definition of sportsmanship?

 

[rimmie]

10 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

My main beef in the previous thread was folks who go out to 'test their skill' without understanding what their equipment can actually do. I'm therefore pleased to see P'shot having more understanding and a critical view, in this respect. Nothing wrong with felling high, wide, and handsome stuff!!

Recently I'm being more irritated by seeing 20-30 yard stuff shot with 32g of continental 5's!!

Totally agree !!! 
 

or as I have seen recently, someone shooting 40+ yard pheasant with 28g 7’s !!!!

 

 

in the extreme stuff, my opinion is if you have the experience and tight choke and a good 34g + load, then why not. 
 

it’s  not for novice shooters, you should never practice on live game. A lot of clay practice first, patten plate tests etc....

Edited November 11, 2019 by rimmie

[Perazzishot]

12 minutes ago, Hamster said:

It’s a matter of statistical probabilities, if you chuck 300 pellets at a hapless creature 80 yards away, a proportion WILL receive non lethal strikes that may kill them in agony days later or allow them the “sporting chance” of flying over our proud extreme boys once or thrice more. 

If you truly understood scatter gun characteristics you’d know the further out you get the more likely random single wounding strikes become. 

Well that is true if you fire at a covey of partridge or grouse at 30 yards surely which are tightly packed, or a skein of geese coming into decoys or even pigeons for that matter. What about layered flushes on normal shoots? Non lethal collateral damage can occur on any shoot day.

[Dave at kelton]

An interesting debate but many of the comments seem to be based on supposition not observed facts. As my previous posts indicate I pick up one one of the estates that provides extreme birds, both pheasant and partridge. I therefore comment from personal observation irrespective of the ballistics quoted.

Firstly experienced guns who come equipped for the job give a good account of themselves and kill numerous birds. On the opposite side of the coin there are those that simply aren’t up to it. Do either team result in hundreds of pricked birds, the claim of some in this debate, no they do not. If they did I would know about as I would be filling the game cart way beyond what was expected of the bag on each drive. I stood with a gun on Saturday and he said he had a handful of cartridges in his pocket and would hope to shoot half a dozen of the highest birds. He did just that and all stone dead. The ones he missed where missed clean.

Yes birds are pricked but in my experience no more so than most shoots as a proportion of the total bag. As has already been said shoots that provide this standard of game invest significant sums ensuring every bird is picked, dead or pricked, and we take pride ensuring that is the case.

As to comments about ego and sportsmanship this is just tosh. A sportsman is one who makes sure he is up to the task and that matters not a jot whether you are shooting at 40, 60, or more yards. You stretch yourself to the limit of your ability and no further. I could not kill the birds that Perazzi does but I pattern my wildfowling guns at 60 m and know I can kill geese at that range consistently. So am I not a sportsman because guns using 3” bismuth shells cannot kill at the range I kill with 3.5” steel shot? It is irrelevant, I am performing to my optimum just as people like Perazzi is on game birds. That is what sportsmanship is about.

[Stonepark]

1 minute ago, rimmie said:

 

or as I have seen recently, someone shooting 40+ yard pheasant with 28g 7’s !!!!

 

The 45 yard load of 28g 7 has the similar energy and penetration as the 80 yard no 4..........

 the difference is there is 3 times as many pellets in a 30 inch circle and therefore meets the minimum pattern requirement as well as the minimum energy and penetration!

[PPP]

I would guard against a publicly viewable forum criticising any legal shooting, it’s more collateral for antis many and various, however.

There is no doubt in my mind that skilled practitioners with the right equipment can consistently kill Pheasants above 60 yards, maybe as far as 90, the reality is that straight driven high birds not curling or drifting are not the hardest, they just require repetition learning.

They are fashionable and therefore profitable/expensive depending on how you view the transaction which means they are here to stay and as they are expensive and require a degree of experience/repetition they are beyond the wallet of many which drives some jealousy/dislike.

These shoots are very well run and cover large areas of ground meaning that if a team turns up and is off the pace on the first drive they can still have a fun day on the lower slopes and go away happy.

Personally, shooting needs to stop attacking itself before it hastens it’s own demise

[Centrepin]

3 minutes ago, PPP said:

Shooting needs to stop attacking itself before it hastens it’s own demise

👍Absolutely 

[Stonepark]

37 minutes ago, PPP said:

Personally, shooting needs to stop attacking itself before it hastens it’s own demise

 

32 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

👍Absolutely 

 

Shooting needs to ensure that it's practices are defensible both morally and scientifically.

 

It is well established the minimum number of pellets (pattern) and striking energy (penetration) required to cleanly kill a pheasant if a shot is placed on target.

I have yet to see an example of an 80 yard 12 bore lead pattern that could meet both those objectives.

This could easily be answered if one of the proponents could provide such a pattern, none have yet done so!

[PPP]

As any pattern test will illustrate, shooting paper and comparing it to birds or clays is a waste of paper

[rbrowning2]

I’m with stonepark on this you need a lot of big shot to consistently and humanly bring down 80 plus yard pheasants however good a shot you are.

perrazzishot cut open one of them super fibre wad cartridges you spoke about and post a photo of the components so we can all see what makes them so special .

 

[Perazzishot]

25 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I’m with stonepark on this you need a lot of big shot to consistently and humanly bring down 80 plus yard pheasants however good a shot you are.

perrazzishot cut open one of them super fibre wad cartridges you spoke about and post a photo of the components so we can all see what makes them so special .

 

To prove what? They are Hull High Pheasant Extreme 34/4 fibre, going through Miroku 32" 18.4 bore barrels. I can assure they work! My 5th year shooting extreme on the back of 35 years years game and competition clay shooting.

The right equipment in the right hands will work! 

[Stonepark]

I did a note earlier but got distracted and then accidently closed page before posting......

Cartridge Manufacturer Innovation (Gamebore/Hull etc) is a bit of the following formula......

Increase shot size by 1/2 or more than what is stated on box to increase terminal performance at expense of pattern

Increase shot hardness to 5% to cope with additional pressure

Use steel type slower burning high energy progressive powder which limits peak pressure by spreading pressure pulse out (but higher pressure overall for longer) and pushes speeds to 1450 feet per second plus.

If they are being really good they will have a composite wad set up (Overpowder card plus  fibre wad plus felt wad, possible with undershot card) but I doubt it

But why did it take two seasons to develop them, access to a pressure barrel, pattern range (both of which manufacturers have) and a week or two experimentation should have sorted it.

 

[motty]

3 hours ago, rimmie said:

Totally agree !!! 
 

or as I have seen recently, someone shooting 40+ yard pheasant with 28g 7’s !!!!

 

 

in the extreme stuff, my opinion is if you have the experience and tight choke and a good 34g + load, then why not. 
 

it’s  not for novice shooters, you should never practice on live game. A lot of clay practice first, patten plate tests etc....

A 40 yard pheasant with an ounce of 7 is easily achievable.

1 hour ago, PPP said:

As any pattern test will illustrate, shooting paper and comparing it to birds or clays is a waste of paper

On the contrary!

[Smokersmith]

33 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

They are Hull High Pheasant Extreme 34/4 fibre

That's been my go to load on very high stuff. I believe from my own observations that the considered wisdom about number of pellet strikes becomes useless once pellets get above a certain size. I've seen a lot of clean kills, and clean misses at range with this load.

I also note the same with geese …. where dead in the air geese have had a very limited number of high energy pellets (e.g. BBB steel) when plucked.

[Hamster]

10 hours ago, PPP said:

I would guard against a publicly viewable forum criticising any legal shooting, it’s more collateral for antis many and various, however.

There is no doubt in my mind that skilled practitioners with the right equipment can consistently kill Pheasants above 60 yards, maybe as far as 90, the reality is that straight driven high birds not curling or drifting are not the hardest, they just require repetition learning.

 

Personally, shooting needs to stop attacking itself before it hastens it’s own demise

George Digweed would disagree with you but then what does he know compared to you, Perazzishot and people who make a living presenting 90 yarders.

Shooting needs to police itself from people who are turning a beautiful century old tradition of driven pheasant shooting into a willy measuring competition. Do not be in any doubt whatsoever that anti’s are already aware and possibly filming these shoots, they don’t need to go on forums and even if they did I would be proud to have stood on the right side of morality with them - practical kinetic energy science and observed pattern testing says NOCANDO. 

A clay shooter relies on a rough pattern ranging from 10” for a close rabbit to 30” for normal stuff and as much a 50” or more for very distant clays, your boys are relying on a 5-7’ wide margin of error (skill, don’t make me laugh), I know it, most clued up people here know it and you ought to know it.

9 hours ago, PPP said:

As any pattern test will illustrate, shooting paper and comparing it to birds or clays is a waste of paper

Why is that then ? A 6’ wide pattern full of partridge size holes at 80 yards is a damn good clue.

[rbrowning2]

9 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

To prove what? They are Hull High Pheasant Extreme 34/4 fibre, going through Miroku 32" 18.4 bore barrels. I can assure they work! My 5th year shooting extreme on the back of 35 years years game and competition clay shooting.

The right equipment in the right hands will work! 

Barrel length makes virtually no difference to ballistic performance.

you are very unlikely to get the same performance through a real world gun then you will through a proof barrel.

34gm is still not a lot of shot and not enough for 80/90 yard targets to deliver the pattern and pellet count required at those distances.

please do cut open a hull high pheasant extreme 34/4 fibre and post the photo of the components, so we can all see the magic within.

 

 

 

[wymberley]

11 hours ago, PPP said:

As any pattern test will illustrate, shooting paper and comparing it to birds or clays is a waste of paper

So much for BASC's "we need to do it and better" then.

This is not aimed at the above quote, but in general, one could easily get the impression and be forgiven for so thinking that how any shotgun pattern in terms of density and energy actually achieves its objective is not as widely known as it should be perhaps.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

33 minutes ago, wymberley said:

So much for BASC's "we need to do it and better" then.

This is not aimed at the above quote, but in general, one could easily get the impression and be forgiven for so thinking that how any shotgun pattern in terms of density and energy actually achieves its objective is not as widely known as it should be perhaps.

First you have to be a believer!

[Stonepark]

11 hours ago, PPP said:

As any pattern test will illustrate, shooting paper and comparing it to birds or clays is a waste of paper

 

Actually paper is a good medium for recording patterns, taking a 40mph (18m/s or 60ft/sec) pheasant at 40 yards or so and shooting it with shot with a terminal velocity of 400mph (180m/s or 600ft/sec) means that for a 3m (10ft) shot string will pass the bird in 0.018 sec or thereabouts from first pellet to last pellet, during which the bird can only have moved approximately 1ft (30cm) in the direction of travel from the impact of the first pellet to the last passing by . However the leading edge of the pattern (the hot core) passes by in a half of this time as these are the pellets that have been least distorted during firing, with the outside of the pattern being those which are damaged and slower due to increased air resistance,

If you imagine the shot string in flight as a large contact lens in shape with convex side approaching the bird, given the speed of the pattern, the bird may as well be 2 dimensional, just like a paper target.

May I suggest you spend some time reading chapter 3 of the thesis AN EXPERIMENTAL AND THEORETICAL INVESTIGATION OF SHOT CLOUD BALLISTICS by Compton a copy of which can be downloaded from the below site and which I would recommend to anyone interested in external ballistics to read.

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1382490/1/396689.pdf

 

[button]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Barrel length makes virtually no difference to ballistic performance.

you are very unlikely to get the same performance through a real world gun then you will through a proof barrel.

34gm is still not a lot of shot and not enough for 80/90 yard targets to deliver the pattern and pellet count required at those distances.

please do cut open a hull high pheasant extreme 34/4 fibre and post the photo of the components, so we can all see the magic within.

 

 

 

How can you say it's not enough shot if Perazzishot has done it?

Dave Carrie's videos show it can be done  George Digweed shows what can be done against pigeon on you tube

The key every one seems to be forgetting is the ability of the person pulling the trigger, yes the right gear helps but it is not the only ingredient needed

[Pushandpull]

In most forms of live quarry shooting, the onus is on the shooter to get within a range at which a quick and sure despatch is likely if not certain. There is an anomaly here in that the range is deliberately increased over normal. Not for me but it is for others to make their own judgement.