Deaths

[AVB]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I thought that too  😀

Looking at his more recent posts I don’t think so. If he was then I bit. 

[Yellow Bear]

2 minutes ago, AVB said:

What is important is that that there is a belief that they can and will and hence fiscal discipline to keep it under control. Which is where socialism falls down. 

You mean like our last "prudent" chancellor, a certain Mr G Brown

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, toontastic said:

I've profiled you and this is what I've come up with.

It's ok for people to go shooting because YOU want to go shooting.

YOU don't fish or play golf so relaxing restrictions to allow people to participate is irresponsible and is putting lives at risk.

It's ok for YOU to make money, but anyone making more us just greedy.

 

i do fish at times shooting in safety is a free choice for everyone not just myself lifting the lockdown is a good idea as it’s now pointless and as i said there is nothing wrong with making a few quid just no need for the greed of more more more 

[Deker]

13 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

 And where do they think Governments get money.

 

Unfortunately union reps in general are some of the laziest (and useless) in a workforce, they're the type of individual who doesn't want to work any harder to get a promotion or a pay rise so they'll apply for a union rep job to get what they see as a bit of authority and a yearly jolly to some union meeting, I've had the misfortune to work in three companies across two very different industries but found union reps to be the same throughout

[Yellow Bear]

Just now, Deker said:

Unfortunately union reps in general are some of the laziest (and useless) in a workforce, they're the type of individual who doesn't want to work any harder to get a promotion or a pay rise so they'll apply for a union rep job to get what they see as a bit of authority and a yearly jolly to some union meeting, I've had the misfortune to work in three companies across two very different industries but found union reps to be the same throughout

👍 Snap

[SpringDon]

1 hour ago, AVB said:

Unbelievable. No appreciation at all of basic economics. In your little dream world where is the money coming from to pay for this never ending furlough. 

I sometimes wonder whether people bother reading what’s written....

[treetree]

34 minutes ago, AVB said:

I think you will find that capitalism bails out socialism every 10 years. 

What, like in 2008 when the losses of private financial institutions were collectivised and spread out across the population to be paid back by pay freeze and cuts in services and austerity for those least able to cope with it.

Good one capitalism.

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

A hundred a day , that’s less than 7% of our normal daily mortality toll, but people have only focused on this one cause of death.

33000 deaths but more than 68000 births in the same period!!!! 

1918/19, 50-100,000,000 died from 'Spanish Flu'. 2020 world population 6 times what it was in 1918.

[Gordon R]

Raja Clavata - we have had many disagreements - no point in dwelling on who was in the right or wrong - but I have to give credit for your posts on this and a couple of other threads. Reasoned, sensible and thought out. 

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Raja Clavata - we have had many disagreements - no point in dwelling on who was in the right or wrong - but I have to give credit for your posts on this and a couple of other threads. Reasoned, sensible and thought out. 

I cant remember if he can see your posts, so I'll quote you Gordon thinking he'll see it??

@Raja Clavata

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Raja Clavata - we have had many disagreements - no point in dwelling on who was in the right or wrong - but I have to give credit for your posts on this and a couple of other threads. Reasoned, sensible and thought out. 

+1 

[Grandalf]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Even at the ultra conservative end of the scale (£300B bill), that's £9.09M cost to UK PLC per death, now that's what you call going out with a bang...

No wonder the government are happy to field questions on testing targets and PPE shortages, a beautiful distraction from the real elephant in the room.

You are looking at this the wrong way.   The money spent is not for the poor souls who have died.   It is for the fortunate ones who have survived but would have died if the money had not been spent.   Now as I am probably one of the latter due to my advancing (advanced) years, I think the money was very well spent and cheap at the price.

Just about every country in the world is going to come out of this with a huge deficit.   Lets just write it all off and start over again - Simples!   Most of it will never be paid back anyway. 

[Hamster]

2 hours ago, AVB said:

I think you will find that capitalism bails out socialism every 10 years. Whether a country can actually pay back its debt is somewhat irrelevant. What is important is that that there is a belief that they can and will and hence fiscal discipline to keep it under control. Which is where socialism falls down. 

😂

[SpringDon]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

I think he's said it tongue in cheek, or that's how I read it?

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I thought that too  😀

Yes sorry, I thought furlough till vaccine was reductio ad absurdum and to make sure I put in take backs about furloughed workers relying on non furloughed. Clearly, I failed.

[Jaymo]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

1918/19, 50-100,000,000 died from 'Spanish Flu'. 2020 world population 6 times what it was in 1918.

And????

Firstly this isn’t Spanish flu - be it better or worse so that’s the number out of the window.

Secondly, this isn’t 1918- standards of health and hygiene are far superior to back then.

Thirdly, the advances in medicine l- anti virals, retro virals and antibiotics were merely a pipe dream.

Shall we include bubonic plague from the 1600’s just to be like the media and distort the facts 

[AVB]

2 hours ago, treetree said:

What, like in 2008 when the losses of private financial institutions were collectivised and spread out across the population to be paid back by pay freeze and cuts in services and austerity for those least able to cope with it.

Good one capitalism.

That’s not what happened (and it was done by a socialist government)  but interested to know what would you have done. 

[Penelope]

15 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

And????

Firstly this isn’t Spanish flu - be it better or worse so that’s the number out of the window.

Secondly, this isn’t 1918- standards of health and hygiene are far superior to back then.

Thirdly, the advances in medicine l- anti virals, retro virals and antibiotics were merely a pipe dream.

Shall we include bubonic plague from the 1600’s just to be like the media and distort the facts 

The point is, a virus wiped out 50-100,000,000 people in 1918/19, and in just over 100 year the worlds population human population has increased 6 fold. The human race is not in danger from this current virus.

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Well, I'd hate to put you on the spot and ask you to choose which one is "less wrong than the other" 😛 

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's his view on what the plot is? Actually, no need to answer...

Something about tricking us into loading tracking software on our phones so they can spy on us using 5G network comes to mind?

[henry d]

44 minutes ago, Penelope said:

The point is, a virus wiped out 50-100,000,000 people in 1918/19, and in just over 100 year the worlds population human population has increased 6 fold. The human race is not in danger from this current virus.

But people are.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Grandalf said:

You are looking at this the wrong way.   The money spent is not for the poor souls who have died.   It is for the fortunate ones who have survived but would have died if the money had not been spent.   Now as I am probably one of the latter due to my advancing (advanced) years, I think the money was very well spent and cheap at the price.

Just about every country in the world is going to come out of this with a huge deficit.   Lets just write it all off and start over again - Simples!   Most of it will never be paid back anyway. 

I'm looking at it a different way to you, it's all about perspective and subjectivity, that doesn't make me wrong. One way to take differing perspectives out of the "argument" is by normalising to a monetary value. Then the debate becomes a subjective one based purely on perception of "value for money" or, if you like, "how much is a saved life worth",.

So, tell me how many lives have been saved by the lockdown? Please don't quote the worst case numbers from the infamous model but take a punt on the figure yourself, after all you must have a figure in mind else you'd have no basis for suggesting it's money well spent and cheap at the price?

Alternatively perhaps you'd like to provide a ball-park figure of what you think is an acceptable cost for UK PLC to sink in saving you from death by COVID so far?

Sorry - the above reads all callous and cold, please take the points I've raised in a constructive manner 👍

[henry d]

17 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Something about tricking us into loading tracking software on our phones so they can spy on us using 5G network comes to mind?

More and thicker tinfoil required

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

I cant remember if he can see your posts, so I'll quote you Gordon thinking he'll see it??

@Raja Clavata

Thanks Mice (& Rewulf) - @Gordon R- I've long thought the ills of the past should be buried, particularly given the very interesting times we live in 👍 ATB

[Grandalf]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm looking at it a different way to you, it's all about perspective and subjectivity, that doesn't make me wrong. One way to take differing perspectives out of the "argument" is by normalising to a monetary value. Then the debate becomes a subjective one based purely on perception of "value for money" or, if you like, "how much is a saved life worth",.

So, tell me how many lives have been saved by the lockdown? Please don't quote the worst case numbers from the infamous model but take a punt on the figure yourself, after all you must have a figure in mind else you'd have no basis for suggesting it's money well spent and cheap at the price?

Alternatively perhaps you'd like to provide a ball-park figure of what you think is an acceptable cost for UK PLC to sink in saving you from death by COVID so far?

Sorry - the above reads all callous and cold, please take the points I've raised in a constructive manner 👍

1.   I have no idea how many lives have been saved by the measures taken and the expense involved. I don't think we will ever know the true figures for either account.   (This is on a global or national basis).   If all of the money has been spent to save the ancient lives of myself and the Memsahib then we believe that it was well spent and would like to thank everyone for contributing to the pot.   I, being an atheist,do not believe in the life after death so would prefer to remain here for as long as possible.

2.   It is one of those events, like a war, when you have to spend (borrow) whatever is required.

3.   Value for money is a pointless phrase at a time like this.   You just have to spend what needs to be spent.

You may remember that, on another topic, we were discussing my view of the finance system that humans use to do trade.   My argument was that it was meaningless and that the resources of the world should be shared out for the good of mankind.   I have not changed my mind on this point.   Resources includes labour.

[TRINITY]

Well guys, one thing is for sure . Putting all the rights and wrongs to one side, this pandemic has a large price tag. I am certain tax increases and spending cuts will happen. However I can think of one spending plan we could ditch that will make a reasonable reduction in spending.  Scrap HS2 ,bet they won,t and will still find the money for that from somewhere

 

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, Grandalf said:

1.   I have no idea how many lives have been saved by the measures taken and the expense involved. I don't think we will ever know the true figures for either account.   (This is on a global or national basis).   If all of the money has been spent to save the ancient lives of myself and the Memsahib then we believe that it was well spent and would like to thank everyone for contributing to the pot.   I, being an atheist,do not believe in the life after death so would prefer to remain here for as long as possible.

2.   It is one of those events, like a war, when you have to spend (borrow) whatever is required.

3.   Value for money is a pointless phrase at a time like this.   You just have to spend what needs to be spent.

You may remember that, on another topic, we were discussing my view of the finance system that humans use to do trade.   My argument was that it was meaningless and that the resources of the world should be shared out for the good of mankind.   I have not changed my mind on this point.   Resources includes labour.

But that's just the thing, the money hasn't been spent to save lives, it's been spent to avoid political suicide by any government residing over the potential death of 100's of thousands whilst other countries did much better off. One of the key points though is that the decision was taken on the basis of flawed data, it may or may not have been the right decision - objectively we have no way of knowing. The only thing we do know, roughly, is the death count and cost - so relating cost per death is pretty much the only objective measure we can get.

The war metaphor only holds so far, wars present an existential threat to a nation / mankind, COVID doesn't, although the economic fallout in some countries might.

I disagree on the point of VFM - in hindsight it would have been better to fund the NHS to up the capacity such that 500k deaths per month would not swamp the service, that would represent much better VFM than the path we took.

I do of course remember the discussion, your vision is one of a utopia not achievable in yours or my lifetime, if ever - but the right thing to aspire to nonetheless.

Re: memsahib - beautiful language, I wish you and her all the very best!