UK made PPE not being taken by NHS

[Mice!]

25 minutes ago, toontastic said:

But why should it be deemed suitable for care homes because it's not up to NHS spec. A dementia nurse/carer looking after a patient with covid needs PPE just as much as a NHS nurse.

Would you prefer they were binned?

I've seen care home staff making their own visors out of laminate sheets, that won't be happening in A&E

I absolutely agree care homes need ppe, but nhs comes first.

[AVB]

16 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

I absolutely agree care homes need ppe, but nhs comes first.

Why do you think that? 

[Mice!]

20 minutes ago, AVB said:

Why do you think that? 

If government are providing the ppe then NHS comes first, this has already been discussed on other threads, many care homes are privately owned so should source their own,  obviously at the moment its either hard to get hold of or gone up in price. 

[toontastic]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

If government are providing the ppe then NHS comes first, this has already been discussed on other threads, many care homes are privately owned so should source their own,  obviously at the moment its either hard to get hold of or gone up in price. 

Well if that's the case, why are my taxes paying wages of workers from private companies.

[Dave-G]

Time will tell about why Turkish PPE is not deemed suitable... maybe it wasn't prayed over by clerics. 

Or maybe it didn't pass through the correct grubby hands on the way - or maybe not recycle friendly. 

Or maybe the EU din't get their cut so invented a story about using chlorine or some such rinsing chemical that they dislike/can't make money on.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Dave-G

[Konnie]

Just shows  the farce that is going on,  if it is possible that unfit goods were ordered before seeing a prototype if this is what happened. 

[7daysinaweek]

9 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, have you seen the latest news report Dave, now we do not want the million PPE gowns from Turkey, stating not meeting our safety standards, SO WHAT ARE THE HOSPITAL STAFF USING IN TURKEY ?????

 

8 hours ago, lancer425 said:

No idea what they are using in the hospitals in turkey, but just because the gowns came from Turkey that is no guarantee the Turkish hospitals use the gowns .

If they are not suitable, They are not suitable.

  Could be any number of reasons. Is it quality Is it specs.

 We need to wait find out why they are not suitable, then we can drawc real conclusions.

 

8 hours ago, Mice! said:

I'm sure the people in care homes or other places are perfectly happy and appreciative of the items they have been given, but the NHS will have to use things of a certain spec, unless times are truly desperate. 

 

The gowns in question that have been rejected are fabric gowns. Fabric gowns are fluid resistant gowns that are for specific use in environments where  there is a high risk of airway generating procedures (agp's) associated with confirmed or suspected Covid 19 in high risk acute areas of ICU, itu, Covid assessment centers and other high risk red areas.

Airway generation procedures are  intubation , airway suction, airway management, manual ventilation , tracheostomy  insertion or suction procedures., operating theaters, ambulance staff areas. Delivery of high flow nasal oxygen therapy (HFNO) among which are deemed to all increase a risk of  a fluid generated exposure.  In nursing homes certain procedures may be undertaken by registered nurses with relevant training inclusive of local and national guidance risk assessment and high level ppe in relation to an individual perceived need/risk of a AGP.

AGP'S are very unlikely to be undertaken in lower level nursing dependency residential care settings as opposed to individuals requiring a higher physical/complex nursing intervention. Both are care settings.

We can take it that the fabric gowns where destined for these high risk areas. The current guidance  for direct patient care within 2 metres exposure for all other low level non acute confirmed and suspected Covid 19 care and nursing , eg hospital wards, nursing and residential care settings is a single use plastic apron, single use plastic gloves, Fluid resistant surgical mask (FRSM) sessional use, eye face protection sessional use. Not fluid resistant fabric gowns use.

All of the aforementioned is the current guidance from public health England (PHE) in direct relation to Coronavirus infection control measures.

Regarding the procurement of ppe into the NHS via the National supply chain. Should it not meet the specified quality control by the procurement team inclusive of the local health protection team it does not get put into common use as the employer will not carry the risk to the staff of a equipment failure exposure. Once the integrity of a gown is questioned the concerns re flammability properties, degradation, allergy exposure from the garment, exposure to commonly use chemicals in acute areas such as chlorines etc for infection control measures arise among others.

I can say from personal experience when we used any ppe donated to us it was scrutinized by procurement quality and  the health protection team. Very little  equipment was passed for use , some did get into other very low level and low level areas in the early initial Covid phase, if individual nursing and administration staff chose to wear ppe donated that was not deemed safe it was at their own risk. My employer has provided the appropriate level of ppe deemed for that clinical area and must say I that we have been well serviced. I agree that many other areas have been lacking in ppe and I wholeheartedly empathize. Managers and staff have had to make very difficult choices without doubt in choosing how to keep themselves and their patients safe.

atb

7diaw

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by 7daysinaweek

[stumfelter]

I think the guy who ordered none fit for purpose ppe from Turkey is doing a cracking job.

[oldypigeonpopper]

27 minutes ago, 7daysinaweek said:

 

 

The gowns in question that have been rejected are fabric gowns. Fabric gowns are fluid resistant gowns that are for specific use in environments where  there is a high risk of airway generating procedures (agp's) associated with confirmed or suspected Covid 19 in high risk acute areas of ICU, itu, Covid assessment centers and other high risk red areas.

Airway generation procedures are  intubation , airway suction, airway management, manual ventilation , tracheostomy  insertion or suction procedures., operating theaters, ambulance staff areas. Delivery of high flow nasal oxygen therapy (HFNO) among which are deemed to all increase a risk of  a fluid generated exposure.  In nursing homes certain procedures may be undertaken by registered nurses with relevant training inclusive of local and national guidance risk assessment and high level ppe in relation to an individual perceived need/risk of a AGP.

AGP'S are very unlikely to be undertaken in lower level nursing dependency residential care settings as opposed to individuals requiring a higher physical/complex nursing intervention. Both are care settings.

We can take it that the fabric gowns where destined for these high risk areas. The current guidance  for direct patient care within 2 metres exposure for all other low level non acute confirmed and suspected Covid 19 care and nursing , eg hospital wards, nursing and residential care settings is a single use plastic apron, single use plastic gloves, Fluid resistant surgical mask (FRSM) sessional use, eye face protection sessional use. Not fluid resistant fabric gowns use.

All of the aforementioned is the current guidance from public health England (PHE) in direct relation to Coronavirus infection control measures.

Regarding the procurement of ppe into the NHS via the National supply chain. Should it not meet the specified quality control by the procurement team inclusive of the local health protection team it does not get put into common use as the employer will not carry the risk to the staff of a equipment failure exposure. Once the integrity of a gown is questioned the concerns re flammability properties, degradation, allergy exposure from the garment, exposure to commonly use chemicals in acute areas such as chlorines etc for infection control measures arise among others.

I can say from personal experience when we used any ppe donated to us it was scrutinized by procurement quality and  the health protection team. Very little  equipment was passed for use , some did get into other very low level and low level areas in the early initial Covid phase, if individual nursing and administration staff chose to wear ppe donated that was not deemed safe it was at their own risk. My employer has provided the appropriate level of ppe deemed for that clinical area and must say I that we have been well serviced. I agree that many other areas have been lacking in ppe and I wholeheartedly empathize. Managers and staff have had to make very difficult choices without doubt in choosing how to keep themselves and their patients safe.

atb

7diaw

 

hello, thanks for that, i hear they will try and get replacement gowns or a refund,

[amateur]

The PPE, that Connor and Lin made, which I passed on to my local doctor's surgery and care home was very well received and put into immediate use, in the absence of anything else. When "proper" PPE becomes available, I am sure that they will be discarded. They filled a vital gap.

[Nuke]

13 hours ago, amateur said:

The PPE, that Connor and Lin made, which I passed on to my local doctor's surgery and care home was very well received and put into immediate use, in the absence of anything else. When "proper" PPE becomes available, I am sure that they will be discarded. They filled a vital gap.

Or they just accepted it with no plans to use it to avoid an argument.

/M

[mel b3]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

Or they just accepted it with no plans to use it to avoid an argument.

/M

Or maybe several doctors surgeries and old people's homes got in touch and requested it as they could get xxxx all else , and anything was better than nothing .

[amateur]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

Or they just accepted it with no plans to use it to avoid an argument.

/M

In my case, I offered it, it was gladly accepted, and I had a personal telephone call of thanks from the senior partner of the doctors' surgery and from the care home manager. They had no other source of PPE, and indeed it allowed the doctor to set up a protected diagnostic unit to screen patients with CV19 symptoms.

All praise to Connor and Lin for their initiative in making the stuff. I just acted as a conduit to direct it to points of need.

[7daysinaweek]

15 hours ago, amateur said:

The PPE, that Connor and Lin made, which I passed on to my local doctor's surgery and care home was very well received and put into immediate use, in the absence of anything else. When "proper" PPE becomes available, I am sure that they will be discarded. They filled a vital gap.

 

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

Or they just accepted it with no plans to use it to avoid an argument.

/M

 

36 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Or maybe several doctors surgeries and old people's homes got in touch and requested it as they could get xxxx all else , and anything was better than nothing .

Hi Mel 

my post above is under no circumstances a criticism of your commendable efforts in the current climate. Gp practice and care homes are business separate from the nhs though they do have contracts to consult for nhs patients. My employer is a large nhs trust and I spoke of my experience relating to acute HOT/RED site Covid assessment area after a gp telephone screening. This is not a gp practice.

Some of the ppe which was donated to us in the early phase was rejected for use, we received some face visors that clouded up and emanated a chemical smell after the first test clean , these were not put into use. We had quick access of approved supply chain ppe as we are deemed at highest risk of a Covid transmission.

Front line staff from  nhs services,  gp's, and care homes have had to adopt a dynamic pragmatic approach in relation to ppe when stocks have not been available which is understandable.

I also usually work regular locum work in gp practice and throughout  February and March and I saw hundreds of patients face 2 face with limited ppe and we used what had been generously donated and again, a pragmatic approach had to be adopted in these lower level assessment areas. This approach among others helped limit any suspected transmission of infection alongside , further changes in clinical practise and more telephone triage in the initial stages and increasing non face 2 face assessment.

I stopped any face 2 face locum work towards the end of March when I moved into the red site. I am still doing some locum tel triage for gp practice but no face 2 face from a safe site.

atb

7diaw

[mel b3]

7 hours ago, 7daysinaweek said:

 

 

Hi Mel 

my post above is under no circumstances a criticism of your commendable efforts in the current climate. Gp practice and care homes are business separate from the nhs though they do have contracts to consult for nhs patients. My employer is a large nhs trust and I spoke of my experience relating to acute HOT/RED site Covid assessment area after a gp telephone screening. This is not a gp practice.

Some of the ppe which was donated to us in the early phase was rejected for use, we received some face visors that clouded up and emanated a chemical smell after the first test clean , these were not put into use. We had quick access of approved supply chain ppe as we are deemed at highest risk of a Covid transmission.

Front line staff from  nhs services,  gp's, and care homes have had to adopt a dynamic pragmatic approach in relation to ppe when stocks have not been available which is understandable.

I also usually work regular locum work in gp practice and throughout  February and March and I saw hundreds of patients face 2 face with limited ppe and we used what had been generously donated and again, a pragmatic approach had to be adopted in these lower level assessment areas. This approach among others helped limit any suspected transmission of infection alongside , further changes in clinical practise and more telephone triage in the initial stages and increasing non face 2 face assessment.

I stopped any face 2 face locum work towards the end of March when I moved into the red site. I am still doing some locum tel triage for gp practice but no face 2 face from a safe site.

atb

7diaw

no offence was taken matey..

your posts are always , massively informative , very up to date ,   non judgmental , and very important to pw ..

i didnt post about doctors or care homes , for obvious reasons.

we were asked to make masks for a care home , firstly via a pw member , from that came requests for masks for two more (local ish) care homes , i explained that the masks that lin was producing , really arent up to clinical use , the replies were both the same , we have next to nothing and were desperate . then via a conversation at the local chemist , came a request from a doctors surgery , i was extremely uncomfortable with this , and impressed upon the lady on the phone that these were home made masks , and were never intended to be used by a doctor , or in any kind of medical environment , and just werent good enough ,  a short time later , i got a call from a doctor explaining the situation , the situation was , "we have xxxx all , can you make us enough so that we can wear them , then drop them into a bag so that they can be cleaned " , these were quickly made and delivered , a couple of days later , i had a very similar call , that came via the original doctors surgery.

the masks that lin has been producing , were never intended to be used by doctors (although the original idea came from a doctor) . we have equipment , and could source supplies , that would enable us to make masks that could be used in a clinical setting (obviously not on a covid 19 ward) , but we decided that it would be very wrong to take any supplies , that might have even the slightest detrimental effect on the nhs , and thats how we ended up with the masks that lin is producing . 

the fact that care homes , or doctors surgeries are private businesses , never really figured in the equation to be honest , the only thing that mattered was , if we can help , we will.

 

 

 

[7daysinaweek]

30 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

no offence was taken matey..

your posts are always , massively informative , very up to date ,   non judgmental , and very important to pw ..

i didnt post about doctors or care homes , for obvious reasons.

we were asked to make masks for a care home , firstly via a pw member , from that came requests for masks for two more (local ish) care homes , i explained that the masks that lin was producing , really arent up to clinical use , the replies were both the same , we have next to nothing and were desperate . then via a conversation at the local chemist , came a request from a doctors surgery , i was extremely uncomfortable with this , and impressed upon the lady on the phone that these were home made masks , and were never intended to be used by a doctor , or in any kind of medical environment , and just werent good enough ,  a short time later , i got a call from a doctor explaining the situation , the situation was , "we have xxxx all , can you make us enough so that we can wear them , then drop them into a bag so that they can be cleaned " , these were quickly made and delivered , a couple of days later , i had a very similar call , that came via the original doctors surgery.

the masks that lin has been producing , were never intended to be used by doctors (although the original idea came from a doctor) . we have equipment , and could source supplies , that would enable us to make masks that could be used in a clinical setting (obviously not on a covid 19 ward) , but we decided that it would be very wrong to take any supplies , that might have even the slightest detrimental effect on the nhs , and thats how we ended up with the masks that lin is producing . 

the fact that care homes , or doctors surgeries are private businesses , never really figured in the equation to be honest , the only thing that mattered was , if we can help , we will.

 

 

 

Excellent Mel

Your efforts are highly commendable. 

atb

7diaw

[Mice!]

47 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

the fact that care homes , or doctors surgeries are private businesses , never really figured in the equation to be honest , the only thing that mattered was , if we can help , we will.

Top effort Mel, people asked for help and your good lady was able 👏👏

[Vince Green]

The gowns received from Turkey were made from too thin fabric intended for some other use. OK get real wear two. Life is not perfect, nobody said it was going to be perfect. 

[Retsdon]

57 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The gowns received from Turkey were made from too thin fabric intended for some other use.

Surely somebody should have checked the specs before putting in an order worth several million quid?

58 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

OK get real wear two

Agreed. 

[Newbie to this]

10 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Surely somebody should have checked the specs before putting in an order worth several million quid?

That would suggest competence. I think that is asking a bit much.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, with reference to Dave G first post, particularly the line on NHS purchasing and contracts the MPs committee should be asking who was responsible for awarding a 100 million £s contract to a little know pest control company, I smell a rat here 🤔

[Dave-G]

57 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, with reference to Dave G first post, particularly the line on NHS purchasing and contracts the MPs committee should be asking who was responsible for awarding a 100 million £s contract to a little know pest control company, I smell a rat here 🤔

Indeed - politics is full of dirty deeds - and ought to be spelt plotricks

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, with reference to Dave G first post, particularly the line on NHS purchasing and contracts the MPs committee should be asking who was responsible for awarding a 100 million £s contract to a little know pest control company, I smell a rat here 🤔

Par for the course. Chris Grayling awarded a £50 million + contract to an as yet unformed shipping company to run ships they didn't have into ports that lacked the infrastructure to take them even if they'd had them.

And nobody cares less. So why not spaff a bit more up the wall - where's the problem?

[Diver One]

NHS purchasing.....this is our local hospital but still its NHS money

a few years ago I was in and out of hospital for chemo

a visit near Xmas and most of the massive reception area coned off

in there were

two  pigs in lipstick, hi heels, hi Viz, hard hats, clipboards

1 massive Xmas tree

about 10 bods from local garden centre

1 scissor lift

5 hours later the tree is up, cable gaffer taped to the floor running off an almost fully wound extension lead ( not a good idea) running right across reception. The two "clipboards" were still there congratulating each other. I casually mentioned risk assessment for their footwear, gaffer taped lead and the cost of it all. The look on their little faces was priceless

 

[discobob]

On 21/06/2020 at 15:08, Diver One said:

running off an almost fully wound extension lead ( not a good idea) running right across reception.

When I was in Cyprus I spent a lot of time at the Lemmings Water Sports club in Happy Valley and became the bosun there. One of the first things I found was a fridge running from an extension cable. The cable was on a massive drum (@2.5 ft high on its side) with a single plug plugged in at one end, and a single socket at the other end the fridge was plugged into - it was only for about a 3ft shortfall