Lucasnorth Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Take an aspirin. And have a lie down. Edited January 21, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, Lucasnorth said: Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about?? If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket? More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense. Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round. If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) After taking his aspirin and having had his lie down the OP if he has a SGC or FAC he should hold either up to a bright light. They are watermarked. Edited January 21, 2021 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatchap Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket? More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense. Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round. If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. Something your not telling us Lloyd? Ex CID? The Sweeney possibly?😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Just now, fatchap said: Something your not telling us Lloyd? Ex CID? The Sweeney possibly?😁 Social worker me mate, I work in the emergency out of hours team and mental health, but work alongside some very good professionals and my personal circles involve lots of professionals in security, police and intelligence (Police, GCHQ, NCA etc). NCA have published about it look: https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms Firearms being smuggled into the UK from Europe. If they can smuggle tons and tons of top grade class A drugs, there's nothing stopping them throwing a few guns in with their shipments. Theft from licenced firearms holders is acknowlged as a possibility however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatchap Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I used to remember a while back there was a few incidents of people being followed home from clay shoots and being relieved of their guns. But like you say if you want a "shoota" you know where to get one if you operate in those circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 5 hours ago, Lucasnorth said: Don’t worry. Iv not come across one. I was just thinking the other day that with it being easy enough for criminals to fake things nowadays, how do you know if some bloke turning up to your house with his certificate and leaving with your gun hasn’t had it made up to just illegally buy a gun. How many of us actually look that closely at other people’s certificates. Or could actually tell a good fake. which lead me to think the police should have a website you can go on and access with your certificate number and details and input said buyers details and it says if it’s legitimate or not and has a photo of the holder so you would then know it was all above board. or am I over thinking things. Where would you stand in such a situation, if the police were to ring one day and tell you the bloke you claim to of just sold your shotgun to doesn’t exist. Worth thinking about?? But the fact that you notify the Firearms Licensing dept would/should alert them to a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehb102 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: But the fact that you notify the Firearms Licensing dept would/should alert them to a problem. If I sold a gun to someone and followed all the right procedures and it turned out it was a fake licence I do not trust that the Police would say "Oh, sorry, Madam, but don't worry, you're not responsible for what was done with the gun after you sold it in good faith." They would keelhaul you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: If someone really wanted your shotguns and had contacted you online to “buy one” to the point you gave them your address and you let them into your home, do you think they’d need a fake shotgun ticket? More likely once you opened the door they’d kick your head in, make you tell them where the keys were and clean you out of all you’ve got. Not walk out with a single sporting shotgun. To be quite realistic however, criminals don’t need to bother with that nonsense. Most crime in the U.K. doesn’t involve firearms and if they did really need one they have access to them. The low level plastic gangsters might have a stolen shotgun because they’re mostly idiots doing idiotic things. That level of character is in and out of jail regularly as it’s part of their life style and getting caught with a firearm is too much bother. They don’t even need one for the type of low level crimes they commit so why take the risk. The real players are sophisticated operators who have about as much desire of coming around your house as you do of having them round. If they want firearms I have no doubt they have the connections and resources to acquire them, and they won’t be a skeet shotgun. How do you know the guy who is opening the door , your going to be able to take on . I am 6foot 5 . Ex marine 15 stone , try it . Maybe someone does not want a gun for violence . They just want one for illegal use , say they had applied for there SGC , and were refused for what ever reason . They were hell bent on getting one by illegal means , but not by violence . When we go to a clayground do we know that everyone walking around has a SGC . I have sold a couple of guns privately , and to be honest did not check out there tickets with a fine toothed comb . So guess it could happen , has it happened , no idea . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agriv8 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I think criminals go for dealers more than us end users - kellbrock shooting got done a few years ago have some very nice guns believe they only took the semi autos ! That tells most of us a lot. Personally I don’t think they would want the face to face contact. Though to be fair it has crossed my mind and I usually ask if I can photo there fac on my phone and explain why. Agriv8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 49 minutes ago, johnphilip said: How do you know the guy who is opening the door , your going to be able to take on . I am 6foot 5 . Ex marine 15 stone , try it . Maybe someone does not want a gun for violence . They just want one for illegal use , say they had applied for there SGC , and were refused for what ever reason . They were hell bent on getting one by illegal means , but not by violence . When we go to a clayground do we know that everyone walking around has a SGC . I have sold a couple of guns privately , and to be honest did not check out there tickets with a fine toothed comb . So guess it could happen , has it happened , no idea . How many folk on average are 15 stone and 6ft 5? If they turn up with 5-6 blokes tooled up your going to take them all down are you? There was an incident where this did happen a few months / years back. They threatened to pour kettle water on the blokes wife, he just told em where his keys were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Jeeze, it's despair time........again? lol Edited January 21, 2021 by old man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Lucasnorth said: or am I over thinking things. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 27 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: How many folk on average are 15 stone and 6ft 5? If they turn up with 5-6 blokes tooled up your going to take them all down are you? There was an incident where this did happen a few months / years back. They threatened to pour kettle water on the blokes wife, he just told em where his keys were... The original question was asked about the possible use of an illegal SGC . You pointed out that a person could use violence to get the said shotgun. I just made a point that , perhaps it would be silly to presume you can knock on a guys door and beat him up to take said shotgun of that person . The hole object of the question was the use of a illegal made SGC. 5 or 6 blokes turning up at a person door are not likely going to say here is my dodgy SGC . I gave a possible reason for someone wanting to obtain a shotgun , for reasons, one of them being perhaps they had applied and were refused . Yet they still wished to own a shotgun . There are no checks on people not obtaining a SGC , that I am aware of . A person obtaining a shotgun by this method would be hard to trace afterwards. I dont know if one has ever been made and used . But all things are possible. And until it happens we will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 6 hours ago, enfieldspares said: After taking his aspirin and having had his lie down the OP if he has a SGC or FAC he should hold either up to a bright light. They are watermarked. Five of my FACs/SGCs together with a couple of Section 28B letters have additional marks following an accident involving a full mug of coffee on my computer desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartyboy Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humperdingle Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, stuartyboy said: To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. That has always bothered me. Prior to using emails, I used to send notifications by recorded mail for security. Then they send my licence by snail mail... obviously a cost cutting exercise but the extra cost of secure postage could be incorporated into the fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, stuartyboy said: To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. A very valid point , you don't know you have been granted your SGC till it drops on the mat . And if its nicked before you even get it , what troubles lay ahead for you . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I always carry a photocopy of mine which is in black and white because i once lost a FAC when i was out surely with todays criminals they could copy a certificate with colored and the right paper and change the photo same as they do with bank notes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Rim Fire said: I always carry a photocopy of mine which is in black and white That’s a sensible idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I honestly can’t see why any criminal would go to the length of trying to fake a SGC at all. If you think about it logically it’s a none starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Scully said: I honestly can’t see why any criminal would go to the length of trying to fake a SGC at all. If you think about it logically it’s a none starter. Exactly. They don’t need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 It probably is but the question was asked and per usual the PW jury is giving there verdict 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 8 hours ago, stuartyboy said: To me, a bigger concern is why the Police post out your unsigned certificates through the normal mail. Its obvious through the envelopes 'window' what it is by the print, paper and colour. Any one working with Royal Mail could easily identify it and steal it. That would be an easier method of getting a certificate rather than a forgery. Obviously it would need the picture changed but that would be relatively easy to do. I'm not sure changing the photo would be that easy, as it's printed on the cert you'd have to scan it and reprint on good proxy paper etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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