Shooting incident in Plymouth

[steve s×s]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

in the majority of these cases there is an obvious absence of ‘life glue’.

Life glue is the ‘stuff’ that glues us into life and society and make it much harder for anyone to flip out - a long term and significant other half, children, a relationship with parents, a job and real world friends etc.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but of the known spree shooters here in the UK I doubt there’s anyone here who would have granted any one of them tickets.

That all said we are now in this modern challenging world and everyone has the right to an appeal, to call for a manager, to make a complaint and to have their say and be listened too no matter how ridiculous or daft their position may be - I wouldn’t want to work for firearms licensing because I can imagine the weirdos make a right fuss if someone threatens to take their precious guns away. At work I’ve had to say ‘no’ to weirdos (people on the other side and ‘former’ clients) and these people then make it their life’s mission to ruin yours and often they have all the time and all the energy to do so. 
.

In days of yore the weirdo's were (Delt with) whether or not, now unfortunately someone has them for neighbours because the powers that be Think its best, I do notice that they don't have these neighbours, 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

in the majority of these cases there is an obvious absence of ‘life glue’.

I don't disagree, but 'life glue' is hard to do by 'tick boxes' - and what I might describe as 'stability from insanity' even harder. 

Out of your 5 'examples', I can only tick one - and yet I think I am fairly well 'life glued' ..... but being single, without children, and of an age when parents are long gone and I am retired loses me two more!

On the other hand I do have real world friends, good relationships with all family and neighbours/locals, and have a number of interests in my retirement that keep me busy.

I think that the system where the FEO visited you (even for SGC), had a chat with a cup of tea and could make a 'judgement' was a good system, but I guess that might count against anyone who was very shy/nervous?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, from what one can glean on the story it will be the police and the GP who will be in the spotlight on why was he granted a licence, taken away after some bother with teenagers , an anger management course, now there's stories showing he was into the incell movement, I think the application on AGF and FAC will be more scrutinised after this, 

[CountryBoyTweed]

I don't know whether you've all seen the latest on the news.. According to the IOPC, this individual had his Section 2 licence and firearms confiscated in December due to an assault. He was then returned his licence and firearm in July by the local force... Thats very recent, very concerning and no doubt the officers involved will feel a sense of responsibility. 

I think that does go on to confirm though that this is a freak case of UK gun law gone wrong, the system for the most part works its current form. They obviously confiscated his firearms for the right reasons in December? just sadly decided to return them. 

[NoBodyImportant]

15 hours ago, islandgun said:

just read about this on BBC news online and one of the links spells out very well the law regarding gun ownership and statistics comparing the UK with other countries, link https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58198857

I’m honestly didn’t know you could own handguns in Ireland for protection.  

[TRINITY]

3 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

I’m honestly didn’t know you could own handguns in Ireland for protection.  

I didn't either, but it only looks like special cases. I would imagine persons involved in security,politics etc or their very close relatives. Makes sense though considering how unstable things are in Ulster.

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

from what one can glean on the story it will be the police and the GP

Do we know he visited a/his GP?  One of the difficulties with GPs is the way they operate.  I have a 'named' GP - but despite visiting the surgery rather more often than I would wish - I have never met my named GP.  I have met other GPs in the practice and several nurses and locums - and IF there was anything on file (such as alcohol or depression issues for example) then my 'named' GP would see them in the record - but he wouldn't know me well enough to know all the background.

Whilst I can see a GP may well be able to advise on 'unsuitability' (for example alcohol or depression concerns) - I can't see how a GP can know there aren't other issues as the GP doesn't know the patient at all these days.  Long gone are the days when you knew your Doctor and said hello if you saw him/her in the street.

[old'un]

44 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Do we know he visited a/his GP?  One of the difficulties with GPs is the way they operate.  I have a 'named' GP - but despite visiting the surgery rather more often than I would wish - I have never met my named GP.  I have met other GPs in the practice and several nurses and locums - and IF there was anything on file (such as alcohol or depression issues for example) then my 'named' GP would see them in the record - but he wouldn't know me well enough to know all the background.

Whilst I can see a GP may well be able to advise on 'unsuitability' (for example alcohol or depression concerns) - I can't see how a GP can know there aren't other issues as the GP doesn't know the patient at all these days.  Long gone are the days when you knew your Doctor and said hello if you saw him/her in the street.

I think its likely that the roll of family doctors assessing someone’s suitability to own guns will be removed.

Its possible that we may have to supply our own report (£) on our mental health by being assessed by a psychologist specialising in issues that could effect someone's mental health.

Its also very likely that we will need to be reassessed every 12 months, the police/government will be pressured into making sure, as much as possible, that this type of thing does not happen again by somone with mental issues.

There will be changes coming, you can be sure of that.

[JohnfromUK]

36 minutes ago, old'un said:

I think its likely that the roll of family doctors assessing someone’s suitability to own guns will be removed.

In a way, that makes sense - but I think it is important to keep the link where the GP is aware the patient is a licensed person - and so can (should the need arise - such as s a sudden medical issue of concern) - inform the Firearms Office.

 

38 minutes ago, old'un said:

Its possible that we may have to supply our own report (£) on our mental health by being assessed by a psychologist specialising in issues that could effect someone's mental health.

The problem there will be cost.  I can see to have a qualified specialist visit you (better as they can assess the home conditions) and spend say an hour with you - it will be the wrong side of £100 - so every year - adds £500 to the cost of a 5 year license.  That will be outside many peoples budgets.

[scouser]

Horrific tragedy,  someone seriously messed up, I wonder if the paperwork will be locked away for 100yrs like Dunblame 

[Lord v]

Just now, old'un said:

I think its likely that the roll of family doctors assessing someone’s suitability to own guns will be removed.

Its possible that we may have to supply our own report (£) on our mental health by being assessed by a psychologist specialising in issues that could effect someone's mental health.

Its also very likely that we will need to be reassessed every 12 months, the police/government will be pressured into making sure, as much as possible, that this type of thing does not happen again by somone with mental issues.

There will be changes coming, you can be sure of that.

I think It rather depends on the findings of the investigation into the police decision. If they find notable failings from people in the decision making process then not much may change. If those failings were down to not having the information then we will probably see quite a few. 
 

I agree we will probably end up with phsyc evaluations. At grant my gp refused to comment on my current mental state as he had never met me. (Which wasn’t unreasonable). He was very clear that he was only commenting on the contents of my medical record. 
 

 

[mel b3]

One of the issues , will be that people with mental health problems,  will be very good at hiding those problems.  Many of us here will have known people that have taken their own life , yet have shown no signs of , stress/mental illness /suicidal thoughts.  It's very easy to blame the police or doctors , but they can only see the person sitting in front of them , and not inside the mind of that person , although in this instance , it does appear that they may have had previous knowledge of his issues. 

The whole incident saddens me deeply.

[old'un]

42 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

In a way, that makes sense - but I think it is important to keep the link where the GP is aware the patient is a licensed person - and so can (should the need arise - such as s a sudden medical issue of concern) - inform the Firearms Office.

 

The problem there will be cost.  I can see to have a qualified specialist visit you (better as they can assess the home conditions) and spend say an hour with you - it will be the wrong side of £100 - so every year - adds £500 to the cost of a 5 year license.  That will be outside many peoples budgets.

But its like you said in your earlier post, your GP does not really know you, think I have seen a GP 3 times in the last 35 years and my own doctor once in that time, plus he only needs to have look at your records once every five years, I have never thought the idea of your GP giving his/her opinion on your mental state was a good idea, Its also possible the police will now be looking very hard at grants to people who have had depression or other mental health issues but deemed safe by their GP.

As to cost, I think being assessed by a specialist every year is something that we will have to fund or you do not get a ticket, bit like the situation now with a doctors report.

[kory1986]

5 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

One of the issues , will be that people with mental health problems,  will be very good at hiding those problems.  Many of us here will have known people that have taken their own life , yet have shown no signs of , stress/mental illness /suicidal thoughts.  It's very easy to blame the police or doctors , but they can only see the person sitting in front of them , and not inside the mind of that person , although in this instance , it does appear that they may have had previous knowledge of his issues. 

The whole incident saddens me deeply.

Not everyone who has had mental health issues are suicidal or dangerous or try and hide it or are unsuitable to handle firearms. Its stigma like that , that stops people form seeking help in first place.       

[rbrowning2]

35 minutes ago, Lord v said:

I agree we will probably end up with phsyc evaluations. At grant my gp refused to comment on my current mental state as he had never met me. (Which wasn’t unreasonable). He was very clear that he was only commenting on the contents of my medical record. 
 

 

Is a gp qualified to assess somebody’s mental state?

If all of what has been reported is true it looks like the warning signs were present and the system failed. Ie the mother tried to get him mental health care, his posts on varies social media platforms, firearms returned after doing an anger management course, a loner, unable to fit into society.

with what half a million plus firearms holder these extremely tragic events are thankfully very rare.  So hopefully common sense will realise, it is impossible to put in place any process that would ensue this could never ever happen, unless you really want to see a total ban on all firearms owned for sporting/recreational shooting.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by rbrowning2

[mel b3]

10 minutes ago, kory1986 said:

Not everyone who has had mental health issues are suicidal or dangerous or try and hide it or are unsuitable to handle firearms. Its stigma like that , that stops people form seeking help in first place.       

I'm sorry kory . You seemed to have misunderstood my post , I should have made myself a little clearer mate.

Mental illness shouldn't be hidden , or stigmatised in any way ( and I believe that as a society , were taking huge steps in the right direction with this), but , if a person with some kinds of mental illness wish to hide it from others , then they will. I also completely agree that most people with mental illness are no threat to themselves or others , but in this instance , he clearly was.

[Cranfield]

Its a horrible tragedy and a sad loss of life.
It hasn't been the first, nor will it (unfortunately ) be the last.
After this event, all the platitudes will appear, "lessons will be learned", "we must ensure nothing like this happens again", "mistakes were made", etc.,   etc.,
In fact not much will change , because you cannot legislate for the unexpected.
This person seems to have had issues, but others in the past have had no history and there were no "warning signs".
 

[kory1986]

14 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

I'm sorry kory . You seemed to have misunderstood my post , I should have made myself a little clearer mate.

Mental illness shouldn't be hidden , or stigmatised in any way ( and I believe that as a society , were taking huge steps in the right direction with this), but , if a person with some kinds of mental illness wish to hide it from others , then they will. I also completely agree that most people with mental illness are no threat to themselves or others , but in this instance , he clearly was.

Fair one , he definitely was unstable thats for sure and in his case he should off not been aloud to have a air rifle let alone a pump action shotgun. Sorry i probably being a little touchy , i had depression a couple of years back , but i didn't hide neither did i feel like i wanted to harm myself or others all recovered now though , did have to jump though many hoops to keep my licence though. Being in the armed forces helped as my doctor and the   Psychologist are used to dealing with people that use firearms so i guess they know what to look for. Had to have a couple of face to face chats with my firearms officer as well. They honestly really looked into my back ground and i had to get all sorts of the doctors , i don't get how that nut bag slipped though the net. I think you get people who have mental health issues that are stable and on the other side people like him with mental health issue who are very unstable.      

 

 

 

[TRINITY]

If there is to be s knee jerk reaction, what about the banning of pump actions. Wouldn't bother me and quite honestly I dont see their attraction. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, TRINITY said:

Wouldn't bother me and quite honestly I dont see their attraction.

Wouldn't bother me personally either - but it doesn't achieve anything at all - other than upsetting a few people and costing (presuming some compensation). 

The 'anti gun' lobby will still say it isn't achieving anything (which is true) and the owners will be aggrieved for no good reason.

Bottom line is that one sort of gun is to all real purposes as 'lethal' as another if you are on the loose for 6 minutes plus (as seems to have been the case here).  It isn't the (type of) gun that is the problem - it is the state of mind of the person behind it.

[kory1986]

33 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

If there is to be s knee jerk reaction, what about the banning of pump actions. Wouldn't bother me and quite honestly I dont see their attraction. 

Maybe they should ban all shotguns i don't use them so it wouldn't bother me , personally i don't think anything should be banned we all ready have tight enough restrictions as it is. Your comment is reason why probably in 10 years time we won't be aloud any sort of firearm and probably have to have a licence for a 12 ft lb air rifle because as a community we don't stick together if it doesn't directly effect us. Hence why little by little the stuff we can have is getting taking away , it only be a matter off time before your type of firearm comes under threat. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by kory1986

[mel b3]

52 minutes ago, kory1986 said:

Fair one , he definitely was unstable thats for sure and in his case he should off not been aloud to have a air rifle let alone a pump action shotgun. Sorry i probably being a little touchy , i had depression a couple of years back , but i didn't hide neither did i feel like i wanted to harm myself or others all recovered now though , did have to jump though many hoops to keep my licence though. Being in the armed forces helped as my doctor and the   Psychologist are used to dealing with people that use firearms so i guess they know what to look for. Had to have a couple of face to face chats with my firearms officer as well. They honestly really looked into my back ground and i had to get all sorts of the doctors , i don't get how that nut bag slipped though the net. I think you get people who have mental health issues that are stable and on the other side people like him with mental health issue who are very unstable.      

 

 

 

Firstly . I'm glad that you're better kory👍.

Mental illness (I'm assuming at this point that he was mentally unstable , and not just evil) , could take hold of any one of us , at any time , and its very important that as a society,  were able to talk about it . By talking about it , the correct help will in many cases , get to the people that need it . The reasons for mental illness or instability are way above my pay grade . I know that it can be caused by , chemical imbalance,  physical injury , stress ,drug and alcohol abuse (as mentioned by hd), societal issues(as mentioned by mungler) , and unduobtedly many many more factors . 

On the information that has so far been made public , it would appear that he was hiding his issues from the police and his doctor . It's been said that he had his ticket revoked,  but , it may have only been suspended . The way that this was explained to me by a feo,  is that when it's revoked , the ticket is dead and gone , and you need to re apply(police interview, doctors report etc) ,  but when a ticket is suspended,  it can be returned as soon as the police are happy that you're OK to have it back (I'm happy to be corrected on this point). Either way , in this instance,  it appears that he was able to hide his issues , and have his ticket/ guns returned.

As I said earlier,  I'm desperately sad for his victims and their poor families , and I just can't imagine the pain that they must be feeling right now. As shooters , we will probably suffer tighter restrictions,  but to be honest , that seems to matter very little,  compared to the suffering of those poor bereaved families.  The incident will also have a detrimental side when it comes to shooters that have mental health issues . How many gun owners that have issues , will be happy to talk about it with their doctor and feo now.

[bluesj]

4 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

As I said earlier,  I'm desperately sad for his victims and their poor families , and I just can't imagine the pain that they must be feeling right now. As shooters , we will probably suffer tighter restrictions,  but to be honest , that seems to matter very little,  compared to the suffering of those poor bereaved families.  The incident will also have a detrimental side when it comes to shooters that have mental health issues . How many gun owners that have issues , will be happy to talk about it with their doctor and feo now.

We as shooters shouldn't suffer any thing if it is as it seems at the moment a failure of the system, we have to be on our best behaviour and do every thing correctly so i think its only fair that  the police/ authorities do the same.

[kory1986]

16 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Firstly . I'm glad that you're better kory👍.

Mental illness (I'm assuming at this point that he was mentally unstable , and not just evil) , could take hold of any one of us , at any time , and its very important that as a society,  were able to talk about it . By talking about it , the correct help will in many cases , get to the people that need it . The reasons for mental illness or instability are way above my pay grade . I know that it can be caused by , chemical imbalance,  physical injury , stress ,drug and alcohol abuse (as mentioned by hd), societal issues(as mentioned by mungler) , and unduobtedly many many more factors . 

On the information that has so far been made public , it would appear that he was hiding his issues from the police and his doctor . It's been said that he had his ticket revoked,  but , it may have only been suspended . The way that this was explained to me by a feo,  is that when it's revoked , the ticket is dead and gone , and you need to re apply(police interview, doctors report etc) ,  but when a ticket is suspended,  it can be returned as soon as the police are happy that you're OK to have it back (I'm happy to be corrected on this point). Either way , in this instance,  it appears that he was able to hide his issues , and have his ticket/ guns returned.

As I said earlier,  I'm desperately sad for his victims and their poor families , and I just can't imagine the pain that they must be feeling right now. As shooters , we will probably suffer tighter restrictions,  but to be honest , that seems to matter very little,  compared to the suffering of those poor bereaved families.  The incident will also have a detrimental side when it comes to shooters that have mental health issues . How many gun owners that have issues , will be happy to talk about it with their doctor and feo now.

I know what you mean , i don't think the police knew he had mental health issues they wouldn't of giving him his ticket back without having a Psychologist report and doctors report saying he was fit to handle firearms. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by kory1986

[Gordon R]

I find it hard to comprehend that someone who has anger issues would ever obtain a licence, let alone have it revoked and then re-instated, following an Anger Management Course. The necesssity for the Anger Management Course would ring mega alarm bells for me.