House alarm - HO guideline or Forse want?

[ShootingEgg]

Anyone know if an alarm is a guideline from HO or just my force wanting it..

 

I have my cabinets in a locked room of house which is due to the ages solid brick walls on all 4 sides.

Sounds petty from me I know to say I don't want the faff of installing an alarm that will just be ignored or annoy neighbours when it gets set off by the wind etc.  But I really don't want to mes about with it 

[TK421]

When chatting with my FEO on this it was more down to advise, but dependant on area. If I lived in a high crime area I think he would of pushed for an alarm. As it was I already have one installed plus CCTV. These new wireless smart alarms are really straight forward to install and relatively affordable. For piece of mind, get one thrown in. Mine links to my phone as well which is handy. I can arm disarm etc. plus I’ve just installed one of the CCTV security lights, again this is really good and a 3 wire install up to the mains.

[Scully]

I don’t mind fitting alarms as I live rurally, although I’ve never been asked to fit one, but I think that with a lack of any effective representation, UK shooters are at the mercy of licensing authority whims when it comes to such things, and matters will become increasingly restrictive and intentionally made as difficult as possible to be granted tickets in future. 
The severity of these difficulties will rise in conjunction with the severity of licensing authority cock ups. 
We are assessed and judged by an authoritative service which doesn’t want us to have firearms, yet is reluctant to concede the responsibility that it fears being held accountable for. How can that be right? 
 

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t mind fitting alarms as I live rurally,

Living rurally - there is a 'key question' to ask - which is;

"Should the alarm trigger, how long would the Police Force take to arrive?"

The reason I say this was that my FEO asked about an alarm (which I do have), but agreed that should the alarm go off - there intruders would almost certainly have gone by the time the Police arrived.  The alarm is therefore a deterrent and would hopefully cause intruders to depart rapidly without breaching the cabinet.  This means that the (considerable) cost of a fully monitored alarm may not be justifiable - as the monitoring centre calling the Police is unlikely to add any value. 

Rural attendance by Police to alarms is dependant on where they have a car and if it is 'free' to attend.  If you are rural, but have neighbours who would hear the alarm and react - this may be better and much cheaper.  A description of the intruders and a vehicle description by a neighbour is something that they can use.

[samboy]

I have an alarm, cctv and a ring bell and a dog. I wasn't asked to have all this but it gives me a bit of peace of mind.

Prevention is better than cure as they say. 

[Scully]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Living rurally - there is a 'key question' to ask - which is;

"Should the alarm trigger, how long would the Police Force take to arrive?"

The reason I say this was that my FEO asked about an alarm (which I do have), but agreed that should the alarm go off - there intruders would almost certainly have gone by the time the Police arrived.  The alarm is therefore a deterrent and would hopefully cause intruders to depart rapidly without breaching the cabinet.  This means that the (considerable) cost of a fully monitored alarm may not be justifiable - as the monitoring centre calling the Police is unlikely to add any value. 

Rural attendance by Police to alarms is dependant on where they have a car and if it is 'free' to attend.  If you are rural, but have neighbours who would hear the alarm and react - this may be better and much cheaper.  A description of the intruders and a vehicle description by a neighbour is something that they can use.

I quite agree. Deterrent is the answer, because as we all know…’when seconds count, the rozzers are only minutes away’. 🙂

I know houses that simply have a facsimile of an alarm cover, just to act as a deterrent. 

[arjimlad]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-security-handbook is the official national guidance if that assists 

 

 

[Fellside]

It has been established that the vast majority of firearms used by criminals are sourced via black market routes and not stolen from legit’ sources. 

In other words there are easier ways for criminals to obtain firearms. Where should this well know (evidenced based) fact lead us? 

[Dougy]

9 minutes ago, Fellside said:

It has been established that the vast majority of firearms used by criminals are sourced via black market routes and not stolen from legit’ sources. 

In other words there are easier ways for criminals to obtain firearms. Where should this well know (evidenced based) fact lead us? 

Just pop over the channel, have a few days touring the sites and just pop back with whatever you bought, far more choices over there too.  

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, Dougy said:

Just pop over the channel, have a few days touring the sites and just pop back with whatever you bought, far more choices over there too.  

The terrifying reality - is that its probably that easy….!!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

If the Police concentrated on the illegally held firearms within this country, rather than the legally held ones it would be a good move.

 

But, as usual, we the good old law abiding SGC and FAC holders are by far the easier target.

[enfieldspares]

Often a cheaper additional measure is pushing your "boundary" further away from your house. That's maybe as simple as having a locked gate to any side entry path, "jitty" or gully that gives access to the rear of the house. Visible (but only after you've walked into their field of view) cameras help as that means people approaching the house will know they've been seen. This is what my camera picked up for example. He's too late covering his face as the camera had already got him.

Edited January 24, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Gordon R]

Hopefully no-one will complain that your camera operates outside the boundaries of your property. It seems madness to me, as you are only covering your property and a public road, but would fall foul of the rules.

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Hopefully no-one will complain that your camera operates outside the boundaries of your property. It seems madness to me, as you are only covering your property and a public road, but would fall foul of the rules.

This baffles me also, given that it is perfectly acceptable to mount a dashcam and film all and sundry you come across. 

[bigroomboy]

I think that's fine because it's a vie of a public place or from a public place. I think issues arise if you were capturing a view that wouldn't be judges as that. Ie private back garden or bedroom windows etc. Where people wouldn't expect to be seen from a public place.

[Steve brownell]

I think I read something about extreme velocity calibers like 50 cal they need alarms but normal stuff I don’t think you have to have an alarm, I had one fitted as a deterrent from burglars as well as to protect my family, guns and home

[ShootingEgg]

So my force area have said above X number you need an alarm and then above another amount it would be a monitored alarm, now I know fellow shooters in my area who fit into both and neither have or have been asked to install alarms. I have one that I fitted in my previous property and am moving it over as it was my parents house as  was moving just before lockdown.. but it does seem strange that it's not across the board. Now I'm not going to say but my mate down road has X but no alarm as I'm not that way inclined. But it does beg the question, what do they know and how do they come up with these rules.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

how do they come up with these rules.

The Home Office guidance (a link to which @arjimlad has kindly posted above) suggests the FEO takes into account many factors in addition to just the number held;

• Type of arms (and their perceived desirability to the criminal fraternity)
• Type of storage (one cabinet or several)
• Crime risk of area
• Risk to cabinet (i.e. location and security in property, occupancy of property (e.g. often empty?))
• isolation/vulnerability of property
• etc.

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Home Office guidance (a link to which @arjimlad has kindly posted above) suggests the FEO takes into account many factors in addition to just the number held;

• Type of arms (and their perceived desirability to the criminal fraternity)
• Type of storage (one cabinet or several)
• Crime risk of area
• Risk to cabinet (i.e. location and security in property, occupancy of property (e.g. often empty?))
• isolation/vulnerability of property
• etc.

That's all good then, I was unsure if this was HO or individual force etc 

And as said above I know others who are in similar position to myself, yet no mention of this for them. Just seems strange that the rules are there but not necessarily apply to all for some reason.

 

I have no issue in putting a system in place

Edited January 24, 2022 by ShootingEgg

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

And as said above I know others who are in similar position to myself, yet no mention of this for them. Just seems strange that the rules are there but not necessarily apply to all for some reason.

Bear in mind the Home Office provides Guidance.  These are not rules but are there to guide Chief Constables ......... who interpret the guidance to suit their individual forces - hence the variations.

The official wording (from BASC website) is “The firearms and ammunition [or shotguns] to which the certificate relates must at all times (except in the circumstances set out in paragraph (b) below) be stored securely so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the firearms or ammunition by an unauthorised person.”

The underlined bit is what gives rise to cabinets, alarms etc.  Different forces have different ideas on "so far as is reasonably practicable" leading to different requirements for physical security.

[Westley]

10 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Anyone know if an alarm is a guideline from HO or just my force wanting it..

 

I have my cabinets in a locked room of house which is due to the ages solid brick walls on all 4 sides.

Sounds petty from me I know to say I don't want the faff of installing an alarm that will just be ignored or annoy neighbours when it gets set off by the wind etc.  But I really don't want to mes about with it 

IF you have a decent alarm installed, there should not be any false activations due to weather conditions. Both of the 2 'false activations' on my alarm system, during the last 10 years, were caused by pigeons flying into the patio doors.

[ShootingEgg]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Bear in mind the Home Office provides Guidance.  These are not rules but are there to guide Chief Constables ......... who interpret the guidance to suit their individual forces - hence the variations.

The official wording (from BASC website) is “The firearms and ammunition [or shotguns] to which the certificate relates must at all times (except in the circumstances set out in paragraph (b) below) be stored securely so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the firearms or ammunition by an unauthorised person.”

The underlined bit is what gives rise to cabinets, alarms etc.  Different forces have different ideas on "so far as is reasonably practicable" leading to different requirements for physical security.

Shame my cabinets being In a room that's behind a locked fire door with solid brick walls doesn't consist of being secure enough, inside a locked house. All brand doors and windows new within last 12 months. 

A home visit which they no longer do would show this. Will be fitting alarm shortly..

16 minutes ago, Westley said:

IF you have a decent alarm installed, there should not be any false activations due to weather conditions. Both of the 2 'false activations' on my alarm system, during the last 10 years, were caused by pigeons flying into the patio doors.

True, but then who even reacts to an alarm sounding. Most people just think it's set off by accident or as you say false activations. 

[theshootist]

You can fit an alarm yourself very cheaply which takes a cheap pay as you go sim card and calls you if triggered. You could set this up on your gunroom door. I had one of these before going for a fully monitored alarm system and the FEO was very happy at the time. 

 

[ShootingEgg]

11 hours ago, theshootist said:

You can fit an alarm yourself very cheaply which takes a cheap pay as you go sim card and calls you if triggered. You could set this up on your gunroom door. I had one of these before going for a fully monitored alarm system and the FEO was very happy at the time. 

 

Yep they are happy. For the room to be alarmed. Now just have to get round to fitting it 

[Westley]

On 24/01/2022 at 20:40, ShootingEgg said:

Shame my cabinets being In a room that's behind a locked fire door with solid brick walls doesn't consist of being secure enough, inside a locked house. All brand doors and windows new within last 12 months. 

A home visit which they no longer do would show this. Will be fitting alarm shortly..

True, but then who even reacts to an alarm sounding. Most people just think it's set off by accident or as you say false activations. 

BURGLARS  !