Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Walker570]

As above and lead to probably WW3

Another question.  I don't know how much we, the UK, contribute in aide to India these days but should not it be considered, considering the fact they are supporting Russia.    I know why, because they are beholden to the Russians for various things. So be it, why should we tax payers contribute to a country which does not support us?  Simply sitting on your hands is not good enough.

[Weihrauch17]

10 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

As above and lead to probably WW3

Another question.  I don't know how much we, the UK, contribute in aide to India these days but should not it be considered, considering the fact they are supporting Russia.    I know why, because they are beholden to the Russians for various things. So be it, why should we tax payers contribute to a country which does not support us?  Simply sitting on your hands is not good enough.

Don't forget we give £300 million PA to Pakistan and that slime ball Imran Khan has agreed to buy Russian Gas and 2 Million tonnes of Wheat.  We need a huge rethink of who we give money to and who we are allies with.  Assuming we come out of the other side of this insanity that is.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[old man]

I don't see enough cojones to stop the big handouts we make, our politicos are just so good at dispensing our money?

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

All that would is escalate the fighting and increase the death and destruction, on all sides. 

 

That's up to Russia though isn't it. 

We would simply be holding a line in defence of a democratic country under attack. Just because its a tough decision, it shouldn't mean we don't do the right thing. 

I always try to consider life that way, what is the right thing to do and what would I want if I was in someone else's shoes. I definitely know the answer if I was a Ukrainian civilian being bombed for nothing more than wanting to live a peaceful life with my family. 

[Stonepark]

56 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

We would simply be holding a line in defence of a democratic country under attack.

Ukraine stopped being a democratic country in 2013\4 when the USA, UK and others supported a coup through "popular uprising".

The subsequent nationalist governments actions against the regions and populations that refused to accept the coup as legitimate are there for those who wish to view them, war crimes, murder and all.

My best guess is Putin is going to cut the head of the Ukrainian snake (government and oligarchy) and then annex everything East of the Dnipro into a culturally Russian state that is self governing and recognised as it's own country a bit like what the USA has tried to do in Syria with the Kurds but failed.

The difference is that Putin will probably succeed.

 

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, Stonepark said:

Ukraine stopped being a democratic country in 2013\4 when the USA, UK and others supported a coup through "popular uprising".

The subsequent nationalist governments actions against the regions and populations that refused to accept the coup as legitimate are there for those who wish to view them, war crimes, murder and all.

My best guess is Putin is going to cut the head of the Ukrainian snake (government and oligarchy) and then annex everything East of the Dnipro into a culturally Russian state that is self governing and recognised as it's own country a bit like what the USA has tried to do in Syria with the Kurds but failed.

The difference is that Putin will probably succeed.

 

Putin will be dead very soon.

[Stonepark]

35 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Putin will be dead very soon

So tell me why, Blair, Bush, Clinton and Obama aren't dead for doing the exact same thing........

[Weihrauch17]

They never threatened Nuclear War.  I cannot believe you defend the monster, but then again you are are a Russian Troll.  Kiss your **** goodbye, WW3 is coming.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Stonepark]

20 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

They never threatened Nuclear War.  I cannot believe you defend the monster, but then again you are are a Russian Troll.  Kiss your **** goodbye, WW3 is coming.

I really do enjoy well informed and reasoned discussion......

[Dave-G]

Popcorn time again.

[Stonepark]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Popcorn time again.

🤣

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Ukraine stopped being a democratic country in 2013\4 when the USA, UK and others supported a coup through "popular uprising".

The subsequent nationalist governments actions against the regions and populations that refused to accept the coup as legitimate are there for those who wish to view them, war crimes, murder and all.

My best guess is Putin is going to cut the head of the Ukrainian snake (government and oligarchy) and then annex everything East of the Dnipro into a culturally Russian state that is self governing and recognised as it's own country a bit like what the USA has tried to do in Syria with the Kurds but failed.

The difference is that Putin will probably succeed.

 

No country is perfect, the Bush/Blair illegal war in particular, but even then, to compare them to the likes of Putin simply doesn't hold up and for a country you seem to impy was forced into accepting the west's will, they're certainly putting up a hell of a fight considering Putin is trying to 'rescue' them! 

[Raja Clavata]

12 hours ago, Walker570 said:

12 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Don't forget we give £300 million PA to Pakistan and that slime ball Imran Khan has agreed to buy Russian Gas and 2 Million tonnes of Wheat.  We need a huge rethink of who we give money to and who we are allies with.  Assuming we come out of the other side of this insanity that is.

Another question.  I don't know how much we, the UK, contribute in aide to India these days but should not it be considered, considering the fact they are supporting Russia.    I know why, because they are beholden to the Russians for various things. So be it, why should we tax payers contribute to a country which does not support us?  Simply sitting on your hands is not good enough.

We need to add Eritrea to that list too, along with anywhere else that’s in Putin’s pocket.

@Stoneparkis right about 2014 and the ensuing atrocities in parts of the country. Putins true aspirations remain to be seen but that best guess of his would be one of the better scenarios in my book.

I’m quite sure he’s also not justifying what Putin is currently doing.

There is also the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 with Russia, US and UK which led Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan to disband their nuclear deterrent on the basis that their security would be upheld.

That Treaty was torn up when Russia annexed Crimea, I understand that the yanks and us were the only nations prepared to do anything about it but the rest of NATO were very reluctant.

Again, nothing justifies Putin’s current actions but there’s a shed load of cause and effect associated with this war.

[oldypigeonpopper]

22 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I take my hat off to the Ukrainian people, if what I've heard is correct, the vast majority of refugees coming out of there are women and children and there is a stream of cars with men in them going the other way, returning to fight after dropping their partners and children off. 

Without assistance it is unfortunately a fight they will likely ultimately loose. I do feel at this point nato should push in from the west and hold any uninvaded areas, the Ukrainians have proved they deserve our help. 

Hello, good post, 👍 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

We need to add Eritrea to that list too, along with anywhere else that’s in Putin’s pocket.

@Stoneparkis right about 2014 and the ensuing atrocities in parts of the country. Putins true aspirations remain to be seen but that best guess of his would be one of the better scenarios in my book.

I’m quite sure he’s also not justifying what Putin is currently doing.

There is also the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 with Russia, US and UK which led Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan to disband their nuclear deterrent on the basis that their security would be upheld.

That Treaty was torn up when Russia annexed Crimea, I understand that the yanks and us were the only nations prepared to do anything about it but the rest of NATO were very reluctant.

Again, nothing justifies Putin’s current actions but there’s a shed load of cause and effect associated with this war.

But nobody wants to hear both sides, especially not the media.

I certainly don't think Russia are right, we expect these things to be settled in the courts these days not with missiles. 

NATO are certainly paying attention this time though.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

@Stoneparkis right about 2014 and the ensuing atrocities in parts of the country. Putins true aspirations remain to be seen but that best guess of his would be one of the better scenarios in my book.

I’m quite sure he’s also not justifying what Putin is currently doing.

Raja, you are quite correct, I don't support war or government enforced killing, whether Putin, Zelensky, Bliar or Biden. Most people just wish to live and get on with their lifes, raising their families and have the least interaction with government as possible.

What is winding me up about Ukraine is the propaganda that is being swallowed by huge amounts of people and the hypocrisy being demonstrated when they did not similarly react to the USA and UK etc various illegal and unlawful invasions and military actions.

Governments act in what they think is their (and their associates and supporters) best interests, not necessarily their populations best interests, Putin will have his reasons, does this mean he is a monster... no, and certainly not any more than Blair, Bush etc.

The problem (ignored in the Western media) however remains that the West was arming Ukraine at a rapid rate prior to the Russian invasion for the purposes of taking back the secceded areas in the East and Putin has stepped in to nullify this as he identifies with those people culturally... will more or less people die in total... your guess is as good as mine but instead of everyone sitting down and negotiating in good faith (which the right wing Ukranians would never accept) the alternative is armed violence.

 

A question for everyone.........

 

If the Scottish and Welsh Nationalists, both held non-Uk sanctioned referendums and obtained 50.1% in favour of seperation on a turnout of 75% to 80% and then declared seperation, extending their own governments to full control, taking over their territories fully (including all military assets therein including Faslane etc) and rejecting all the UK Gov control and taking over means of administration and control, banning the teahcing/speaking of English, etc etc, what do you think the UK Government would do.... a)Say farewell be on your way or B)Send troops into regions to hold main cities and infrastructure and support the people who wished to remain in the UK?

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Stonepark

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Again, nothing justifies Putin’s current actions but there’s a shed load of cause and effect associated with this war

 

14 minutes ago, Mice! said:

But nobody wants to hear both sides, especially not the media

Well said both, and it's refreshing that this type of opinion can be voiced here without abuse. 

 

1 minute ago, Stonepark said:

What is winding me up about Ukraine is the propaganda that is being swallowed by huge amounts of people and the hypocrisy being demonstrated when they did not similarly react to the USA and UK etc various illegal and unlawful invasions and military actions

Exactly. 

Our own media is in full war propaganda mode. 

One example, 'The Russians deliberately shelled a nuclear plant, risking the worst nuclear disaster ever' 

'Was the plant damaged?' 

'No, not at all' 

[Dave-G]

33 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

"Exactly. 

Our own media is in full war propaganda mode. 

One example, 'The Russians deliberately shelled a nuclear plant, risking the worst nuclear disaster ever' 

'Was the plant damaged?' 

'No, not at all' "

+1,

MSN are quietly getting on my teats with their posturing - the exact same news clips and videos twice an hour for umpteen hours and exaggerating the damage to a "training" plant apparently a few hundred yards away.

If a modern tank commander can't hit a stationary building within a couple of yards he ain't doing a remotely good job and though I support Ukraine rather than cretin I'm not blind to the fact they 'big up' their case by claiming NATO countries are next I'm aware of the fact they may well be sabotaging things to drum up extra support.

Its my understanding they blocked water supplies to the disputed east of Ukraine before Putin reacted. 

[clangerman]

about time fault was seen on both sides it was starting to look like the bbc on here 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Well said both, and it's refreshing that this type of opinion can be voiced here without abuse. 

 

Exactly. 

Our own media is in full war propaganda mode. 

One example, 'The Russians deliberately shelled a nuclear plant, risking the worst nuclear disaster ever' 

'Was the plant damaged?' 

'No, not at all' 

There is an awful lot going on that you simply don't know because you don't look for it, like the 7 or 8 year war, the Ukraine cutting off 85% of the water to the Crimea.

None of that was reported in the main stream press, but a full on invasion is hard to miss, masses of people leaving the country which is all the BBC seem to be focusing on, with cries of let them in, while normally where saying don't let them in.

No one is going to back Putin, but he'll have weak arguments for his actions,  that should fall apart when he started using missiles on urban areas.

[Walker570]

There are almost always two arguments to both sides   Howver killing children should not be tolerated and the mass shelling of living quarters of basically innocent people is NOT acceptable in my book. It is barbaric and should be punishes accordingly.  

Edited March 5, 2022 by Walker570

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

There are almost always two arguments to both sides   Howver killing children should not be tolerated and the mass shelling of living quarters of basically innocent people is NOT acceptable in my book. It is barbaric and should be punishes accordingly.  

indeed, but if army units on both sides, take over residential areas, whether they have been evacuated or not, and start firing on the opposition, those firing points are going to get hit, otherwise the Ukrainian defence , some of it made up from civilians with guns, some who may even live in these residences, could just happily pop away at Russian forces with impunity ?

Likewise , just site your artillery or SAMs , next to apartment blocks, untouchable , I think not.

When Saddam did it , it was called human shielding, and was a bigger villain for it.

Like you say , two sides to the story , and we are only hearing one.
Which included this morning , the Klisthko brothers joyfully taking tally of how many Russians theyve killed.

[Smokersmith]

There are two sides … good and evil.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

There are two sides … good and evil.

Like god and the devil, like East and West ?

Putin and errr Biden ?

Binary choices work sometimes, others , like in this case , not so much.
Yes Russia has done a bad thing, or rather , the more palatable idea is that Putin has done a bad thing, because well, Putin IS Russia, according to our media, ordinary Russians dont really want it, just like ordinary Iraqis or Afghans didnt really want their country bombing and occupying, but got it anyway.

Lets forget about any kind of genuine security concern Russia may have had for a moment.
The way we are being lead to think right now , is that on the whim of a crazy, phsyco Russian leader , who apparent wants the Russian empire back, or communism , or whatever, has invaded Ukraine just because he can ?
No other reason, just plain badness ?

Is that what we really think is happening here ?

[Walker570]

Putin is making decisions even if maybe the worng ones, Biden has to ask his minders.