NHS crisis

[islandgun]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

And, this is a real job advert posted today.

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What does this mean ?

[enfieldspares]

Never any problem seeing my doctor. Wanted a same day appointment and you got one and were seen within thirty to forty minutes of arriving. Except of course this was in France in 2105 to 2019 and you paid 20 Euro for the consultation. So there never was any problem with missed appointments. 

[team tractor]

My partner is awaiting an hysterectomy. She’s been waiting 3 years for the doctors to arrange appointments. When we met a year ago she was reasonable but 6 months ago she went downhill. 
we’ve had to go private to get referrals but we’re still awaiting a date . She’s really poorly and now turning anemic, tired , struggling to work . 
I just want her better but I can’t see it happening soon .

 

my mum was recently ill with a gallbladder. 2 hour wait to order and a following 4 hour wait for the ambulance then 4 hours in the ambulance at the hospital. 
 

Unfortunately we are living in a world of **** with bills out of control but strikes and not the way to sort it .

 

on a side note . My mates a single paramedic that’s just bought a new house , 2 kids , 2-3 foreign holidays each year , always out for meals , car , motorcycle, regularly at boxing matches /festivals . 
Not struggling at all . 
 

Is it true they are on full pay while on strike ? 

[7daysinaweek]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The starting salary for a nurse is £27 K ,going up to an average of £33 K for a full time nurse, they want a 19 % pay rise.
Where is that money coming from ?
The already massively bloated NHS would be bankrupt within a year if it was 'real' business , due to its poor performance in management.

Nurses arent paid peanuts , lets dispel that myth, neither are they overworked, thy have set rotas.
The problem is morale , again due to poor management.
The NHS is a leaking bucket , being constantly filled from the public purse tap

I agree!

5 hours ago, Westward said:

What people overlook amid all the emotive babbling, is that unlike paramedics and ambulance drivers, nursing is a career, at least for those that want more than just a job. There are various nursing grades up to senior Nurse Practitioner position and they can earn as much as £87K.

The NHS is hopelessly out of balance; managers can't manage unless those who really control our hospitals (i.e. The hugely well paid, mostly part time consultants) cooperate. The disparity between the top earners, often only putting in 2 days a week for the NHS and the troops is outrageous, especially since many of the the troops put in shifts and other unsociable hours or have to go out in all weathers and conditions to to provide 1st line treatment to the very sick or often enough those with terrible injuries. Meanwhile the consultants spend half their time seeing private patients and earning more per hour than some of the troops earn in a week.

The NHS must ultimately implode if it carries on providing free care for anyone who comes calling. And I don't just mean free treatment for health tourists, although that's outrageous enough, but the millions who offload responsibility for their own health to the NHS. The burden of dealing with largely avoidable conditions sucks in an ever increasing proportion of the NHS budgets and other resources.

It's long overdue for the government to get a proper grip on the health service and stop fannying around with nonsense like Nett Zero.

Senior NP roles that pay up and around that salary are few and far between and are not under a nhs contract, typically the np is employed by way of a  private contract by a gp practice that sees nhs patients. Senior np can earn up to that amount and beyond via locum work under a private contract. Though most of the the very senior nursing grades in the nhs do reflect salary up to around the £8000 they are usually non patient facing clinical governace based and are mostly operational roles within middle to upper management tier and not a np roles.

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

It all needs a re think and the Commons majority needed the Conservatives have just squandered.

The NHS is a gigantic leaking bucket of epic proportions - nearly 2 million people employed, £160,000,000,000 each and every year without fail and demanding more and more money year on year and it’s failing and falling over? How? We should all be living to 200 years of age and with immediate access to healthcare.

We need an NHS for sure but when did the government ever spend money in budget, in time or wisely? Interestingly, we are now comparatively taxed higher than most Scandinavian countries and the electorate won’t go for increasing taxes to pour more money into the leaking NHS bucket.

Alas no one appreciates or values something they perceive as free - the contents of every A&E department at the weekend tells us that.

If anyone wants to know how to fix the NHS, ask the 20% of nurses and front line workers who do 80% of all the work. Put a suggestions box in every hospital, ignore any suggestion from anyone who took more than 5 working days sick in that year and make publishing the results compulsory.

And, this is a real job advert posted today.

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Good points Mungler

The goverment could pour 50 billion into the nhs tomorrow and it would gobble it up like a hungry pig. It would not touch the sides, where would the bodies and skills come from for plugging that chasm not only in the nursing and medicine sector but also the social care sector. The lack of political will for funding for training and the unprecedented outflows from the frontline. The nhs either greatly scales back on what it can safely and efficiently deliver and begins the long grind to get feet in the door and train more or it continues in its present form and the wheels come fully off. Or it becomes privatised in some form and would not be free totally free at point of need.

Increasingly the nhs trys to be everything to everyone and continually fails with worsening targets with every year that passes. 

The nhs is increasingly administration heavy that far outweighs the frontline staff.

Poor use of public money for initiatives that bring little benefit to the patient or society as a whole as trusts are for the most part not personally invested.

The pfi payments are simply eyewatering and are the elephant in the room.

Poor digital infrastructure that impacts patient flow that costs millions and millions that never gets ahead of the health curve print.

Mental health and skeletal conditions being the most increasing prevalent health cost burdens to the nhs in recent years.

About 20% of the population that once past a certain age, every 5 years doubles the prior 5 years health episode need for that population resulting in a worsening compound affect for this age group.

10% of the most deprived areas of the country  account for double patient facing contacts in the nhs.

More and more unemployment.

As you infer many do not appreciate or value it as a service as they are not personally invested in it so will continue to use its services with a feeling of greater entitlement and at times equal indifference to the next person. That is human nature when something is free.

Shared care behaviours between the professional and the patient are skewed more and more towards greater and greater obligations from the healthcare proffessional and nhs from a duty of care legal standpoint. The nhs litigation cost pot is bursting.

An ever growing all age population.

The list could be endless.

 

 

 

 

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, 7daysinaweek said:

I agree!

Senior NP roles that pay up and around that salary are few and far between and are not under a nhs contract, typically the np is employed by way of a  private contract by a gp practice that sees nhs patients. Senior np can earn up to that amount and beyond via locum work under a private contract. Though most of the the very senior nursing grades in the nhs do reflect salary up to around the £8000 they are usually non patient facing clinical governace based and are mostly operational roles within middle to upper management tier and not a np roles.

Good points Mungler

The goverment could pour 50 billion into the nhs tomorrow and it would gobble it up like a hungry pig. It would not touch the sides, where would the bodies and skills come from for plugging that chasm not only in the nursing and medicine sector but also the social care sector. The lack of political will for funding for training and the unprecedented outflows from the frontline. The nhs either greatly scales back on what it can safely and efficiently deliver and begins the long grind to get feet in the door and train more or it continues in its present form and the wheels come fully off. Or it becomes privatised in some form and would not be free totally free at point of need.

Increasingly the nhs trys to be everything to everyone and continually fails with worsening targets with every year that passes. 

The nhs is increasingly administration heavy that far outweighs the frontline staff.

Poor use of public money for initiatives that bring little benefit to the patient or society as a whole as trusts are for the most part not personally invested.

The pfi payments are simply eyewatering and are the elephant in the room.

Poor digital infrastructure that impacts patient flow that costs millions and millions that never gets ahead of the health curve print.

Mental health and skeletal conditions being the most increasing prevalent health cost burdens to the nhs in recent years.

About 20% of the population that once past a certain age, every 5 years doubles the prior 5 years health episode need for that population resulting in a worsening compound affect for this age group.

10% of the most deprived areas of the country  account for double patient facing contacts in the nhs.

More and more unemployment.

As you infer many do not appreciate or value it as a service as they are not personally invested in it so will continue to use its services with a feeling of greater entitlement and at times equal indifference to the next person. That is human nature when something is free.

Shared care behaviours between the professional and the patient are skewed more and more towards greater and greater obligations from the healthcare proffessional and nhs from a duty of care legal standpoint. The nhs litigation cost pot is bursting.

An ever growing all age population.

The list could be endless.

 

 

 

 

My 2 cousins are senior long term NHS nurses (both +25 years in) and they say all of this.

Their patch is separate hospitals near Heathrow and Gatwick. I always thought it was a Farage bit of blarny that people turned up off planes and presented needing tens of thousands of pounds of medical care. Not so. It’s real and it’s true. 

They are grafters but they speak of an NHS crippled by unionistas, long term sickys and agency worker general malaise. 

It really is a dedicated 20% that does 80% of the graft, and even these lot have now had enough.

It needs tearing to the ground and starting again and if only because we can’t afford it.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

It needs tearing to the ground and starting again and if only because we can’t afford it.

100 %

But any government that even thinks about this, will be kicked out at the earliest, and whatever opposition party it is, will rescind the order and put it back to its old creaking ways. 

In that respect, its a government problem rather than an NHS problem. 

[Vince Green]

20 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The starting salary for a nurse is £27 K ,going up to an average of £33 K for a full time nurse, they want a 19 % pay rise.
Where is that money coming from ?
The already massively bloated NHS would be bankrupt within a year if it was 'real' business , due to its poor performance in management.

Nurses arent paid peanuts , lets dispel that myth, neither are they overworked, thy have set rotas.
The problem is morale , again due to poor management.
The NHS is a leaking bucket , being constantly filled from the public purse tap

That is just the basic pay. They get unlimited amounts of overtime because of the shortages. And they get bonuses (often as much as £200) to bribe them to cover understaffed shifts.

Also the more senior ones get paid to be on standby at home on their days off. Just in case there is a major incident/ problem.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Vince Green

[Mungler]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

100 %

But any government that even thinks about this, will be kicked out at the earliest, and whatever opposition party it is, will rescind the order and put it back to its old creaking ways. 

In that respect, it’s  a government problem rather than an NHS problem. 

I have said for years that GCSE economics should be taught as a mandatory alongside maths and English. If only people better understood the economy, tax, government borrowing / expenditure etc we would be one step nearer to a sensible conversation and not in the cycle of emotive political showboating and chicanery.

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I have said for years that GCSE economics should be taught as a mandatory alongside maths and English. If only people better understood the economy, tax, government borrowing / expenditure etc we would be one step nearer to a sensible conversation and not in the cycle of emotive political showboating and chicanery.

[amateur]

35 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I have said for years that GCSE economics should be taught as a mandatory alongside maths and English. If only people better understood the economy, tax, government borrowing / expenditure etc we would be one step nearer to a sensible conversation and not in the cycle of emotive political showboating and chicanery.

The only problem with that is that when you get two economists in a room, you will get at least 3 opinions.

[Gordon R]

Quote

Their patch is separate hospitals near Heathrow and Gatwick. I always thought it was a Farage bit of blarny that people turned up off planes and presented needing tens of thousands of pounds of medical care. Not so. It’s real and it’s true. 

Witnessed it first hand a few years ago, whilst having a stay in hospital. Relatives of surgeons flown in from India. No queue - fly in - operation - fly out as soon as fit to travel.

As for the Director of Lived Experience - a few people need sacking over that nonsense. Beyond pathetic.

[amateur]

29 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

.......As for the Director of Lived Experience - a few people need sacking over that nonsense. .....

That's a shoo-in for the Duchess of Sussex

[Mungler]

39 minutes ago, amateur said:

The only problem with that is that when you get two economists in a room, you will get at least 3 opinions.

There are some fundamental basics. There’s no advanced theory at GCSE. Just how stuff works and has to be paid for would be a good a start as any. 

[oowee]

Interestingly different approach taken in Scotland with additional NHS funding and not following England's lead. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Interestingly different approach taken in Scotland with additional NHS funding and not following England's lead. 

You seen the books being balanced in Scotland? 😆😆😆😆

Ah man, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read this week. Seriously, you not seen the total budgetary mess Scotland is in?

Sturgeon gone before Spring. £50 bet right there.

Yes, let’s follow Scotland’s lead 😆😆😆

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Edited December 16, 2022 by Mungler

[Yellow Bear]

Nah  -  she will do what she always does and blame Westminster for not giving her extra funds to cover it despite the fact that they already get more per capita than anywhere else.  What is worse, some of the sheeple that vote for her will believe it.

[oowee]

39 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You seen the books being balanced in Scotland? 😆😆😆😆

Ah man, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read this week. Seriously, you not seen the total budgetary mess Scotland is in?

Sturgeon gone before Spring. £50 bet right there.

Yes, let’s follow Scotland’s lead 😆😆😆

.

Not sure i follow what your on about? I am not saying its a good move or bad just a change of play and we can see what impact it has. Why would you want to follow?

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not sure i follow what your on about? I am not saying its a good move or bad just a change of play and we can see what impact it has. Why would you want to follow?

Thats like saying we can learn how to run the country better by examining North Koreas way of doing it? 

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats like saying we can learn how to run the country better by examining North Koreas way of doing it? 

That's probably why it was not suggested. 

[7daysinaweek]

10 hours ago, Mungler said:

My 2 cousins are senior long term NHS nurses (both +25 years in) and they say all of this.

Their patch is separate hospitals near Heathrow and Gatwick. I always thought it was a Farage bit of blarny that people turned up off planes and presented needing tens of thousands of pounds of medical care. Not so. It’s real and it’s true. 

They are grafters but they speak of an NHS crippled by unionistas, long term sickys and agency worker general malaise. 

It really is a dedicated 20% that does 80% of the graft, and even these lot have now had enough.

It needs tearing to the ground and starting again and if only because we can’t afford it.

They've seen the thick end of it then for sure!

I sound very pessimistic however the reality is that sickness is seen for many as simply part of a yearly entitlement and the relaxed absence policy helps facilitate this behaviour.

Seen it for over 30 years, the same people off year in year out. I have known of individuals who have been off for up to nearly five and six years who have come back for only a few short spells throughout only to eventually leave for some nhs pastures new. The resources in relation to input and support from managers and front line staff in every effort to get them back to practising at the minimum expectation of their grade would have to be seen to be believed.

Once employed within the nhs it can be the most challenging process to be seen to 'fairly' dismiss someone on long term absence grounds. 

Like all employees there are of course genuine bouts of absence.

Some agency staff are excellent and are more value for money than other agency staff at times. Some as you infer are demotivated. nhs trusts be them hospitals or primary care trusts have legal obligation to the nhs commissioners for providing minimum safe staffing levels and rightfully so, as unsafe staffing carries a proportinate direct risk to patient care and also to the staff.

Trusts can be fined for breaches of minimum staffing levels can affect the trust at a business level in relation to clinical governance. Part of their business continuity policy incorparates this. So trusts are legally compelled to provide the minimum staff on rota and agency staff are frequently used to get 'the number' up to the minimum level. It is then for the sister or charge nurse and accompanying members of team that may be frequently found 'to carry' the individual through the shift as the agency nurse from a legal standing has to only meet the minimum expected at their grade in most circumstances. What burdens staff more is that they may carry agency staff right throughout the shift and the agency staff will be earning near double of the contracted staff. Where there is money to be earned via locum work people will follow and again that is human nature.

For decades the hardest challenges for the nhs in relation to human resources has been retention of staff. Without retention,staff do not consolidate skills in that area resulting in demoghraphic decline. 

atb. You and yours have a great christmas.

7diaw

[Medic1281]

52% of staff within the West Midlands ambulance service have been in less than 2 years. New students are told on their induction that they are not expected to last longer than 5 years, and that includes the 3 years of training to qualify. 

[ditchman]

just out of interest ...we all know roughly what the nurses are earing for a flat week ......what are they really pulling back with their overtime ?.......

when i was on the farm ..agric wages were always carp...we always relyed on overtime and piece work to bring in some decent money..

[scouser]

I remember thatcher saying the NHS was safe,that she had just allowed another 20k jobs, she didn’t say that 19 k where accountents, 

[Robden]

Everyone that I know that work (or used to) in the NHS, all say that there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Maybe not on the nursing side but definately on the logistics, supplies and catering side. Even the bosses ssistants have assistants. Too many team leaders, line managers etc. Not to mention things that are misplaced or go missing.

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, Robden said:

Everyone that I know that work (or used to) in the NHS, all say that there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

Maybe not on the nursing side but definately on the logistics, supplies and catering side. Even the bosses ssistants have assistants. Too many team leaders, line managers etc. Not to mention things that are misplaced or go missing.

That goes for most civil service sectors.