Auto's And Pump Action Guns On Game Shoots ?

[marsh man]

Over the last few days there have been a thread on pump action guns being used on certain clay grounds and how safe , or unsafe are they if the person using it was putting in three cartridges ?

As I have got very little interest in clay shoots I read the various posts but didn't really take that much interest , it then got me thinking ? , Have I or anyone else seen pump actions used on formal game shoots ? , over many , many years I have been on 100s and I cannot ever remember seeing one , in fact for over 15 years I was driving the team of guns about and looked after the guns on the shooting wagon while the team went for dinner and in that time I had never seen either a pump or auto in the shoots wagons gun rack .

So lets say someone was using a auto , would there be any objection if he or she put three cartridges in the gun and fired the three shots at a driven bird or birds ? , I recon the keeper or captain would be told and he would no doubt have a word with the person involved , but that is only my opionion and it might not happen .

This have never been mentioned on all the pep talks I have heard or given first thing in the morning on a shoot day, and when asked the team if they have got any questions no body have ever asked any concerning the use of autos or pump actions .

So have YOU came accross the above question on a shoot day , this might well happen on a walk up day with your mates but I am talking about a formal game shooting day .

Over to you .    MM

[scarecrow243]

most would say no as cannot be broke open to be safe

[Lloyd90]

29 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

most would say no as cannot be broke open to be safe

 

Similarly to when clay shooting, a gun being broken doesn't mean it's safe or unsafe. It simply shows it's broken. 

An unloaded semi or pump or no more dangerous than an unloaded OU, you can just see the OU is broken (it could be broken and still have cartridges in it). 

 

I think the biggest factor here, is that it is not good etiquette to use a semi or a pump on a 'formal driven game shoot'. 

Much like it would be poor etiquette to turn up to a formal dinner, dance or event dressed in a track suit, it's simply not the done thing. 

 

There are exceptions to this, for example, disabled shooters who can't handle recoil on a OU but are able to on a semi auto, or similarly, children. 

I have seen a small child use a bolt action 410 on a game shoot ... this also couldn't be broken ... but no one seemed to bat an eye lid. 

 

 

The issue of whether they should load 3 shots or not is seperate to it being 'not the done thing'. 

I imagine, if they loaded 3 shots, but took their time, were selective with birds and weren't greedy, no one would even notice how many they had loaded.

 

 

If they have 3 loaded and were regularly blasting 3 in a row at every bird moving, the other guns may have something to say about their behaviour. 

Although, would it not be similarly poor behaviour for someone with an OU to be rattling off at every single bird going past even if it is "his neighbours bird" and just trying to fill the bag on his own?  

 

[udderlyoffroad]

23 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Similarly to when clay shooting, a gun being broken doesn't mean it's safe or unsafe. It simply shows it's broken. 

An unloaded semi or pump or no more dangerous than an unloaded OU, you can just see the OU is broken from a distance - e.g. by the next peg. (it could be broken and still have cartridges in it). 

Small addition in bold to Lloyd's excellent post.

As the one tasked with the paperwork on our DIY syndicate, including risk assessment and shoot rules, I've written a clause to the effect that Semi Autos or pumps are generally not allowed, but may be used at the gun captain's discretion if the the shooter concerned has medical issues.  So far, this hasn't actually come up.  Generally with modern softer-shooting powders, and especially when you take into consideration you're firing way fewer shots than a typical clay session, I doubt a semi would be of much real-world benefit.

Moreover, personally, I detest wearing ties and would gladly bring my Benelli S/A.  I don't though.  I suspect that if a heathen like me can supress his baser urges and turn up reasonably smart with a 'respectable' O/U or SxS, most other folk can 🤣

[Spr1985]

I personally don’t believe it has anything to do with the amount of shots taken or cartridges loaded or birds downed, double gunning with a loader is perfectly acceptable is it not? (Obviously you have to be using a SxS or o/u. imagine the looks if you where double gunning with semi’s or pumps 🤣) And yet a semi auto/pump is not  deemed Acceptable.  I believe it has everything to do with snobbery and older generations not embracing change.  
 

if you can afford to pay for the day you should be able to enjoy it how you see fit and if that means wearing attire that is not matching tweeds  and shooting a semi auto then so be it. The  level of a persons  good manners/etiquette cannot be measured by what he wears or what he shoots in my opinion.  Those that make the snide comments/look down their noses at those in mismatched tweeds/smock and field trousers shooting a cheaper than theirs gun fail at the first hurdle of etiquette/ good manners. 

I think people are far to judgemental with everything in life. But I guess that’s humans. 

[enfieldspares]

29 minutes ago, Spr1985 said:

Imagine the looks if you where double gunning with semi’s or pumps 🤣) And yet a semi auto/pump is not  deemed Acceptable.  I believe it has everything to do with snobbery and older generations not embracing change.  

Supposedly Josef Tito Jugoslavian "strongman" "bulwark against Communism" and dictator used three Browning A-5 shotguns and two loaders. However this one here looks all Breda to me? What does the P/W collective think?

https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/gun-collecting-unique-breda-shotgun

https://youtu.be/tNQd2diRJ5k

Anyway here he is 

Edited January 5, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Loki]

Hi

Correction, if I may, Druj (Comrade) Tito was a Yugoslav, albeit Communist aligned.............only because many of my Friends parents (Royalists for King Peter), fought against Germans, Communists and Ustashi and were from the original 'Yugoslavia'.

Not sure they would appreciate 'Yugoslavian', they consider themselves 'Yugoslav', just saying.

L

[Poor Shot]

There's a bloke on our syndicate shoot that uses a semi auto. Only ever loads two at a time.

Does anyone really care? No. I'd be more put out by the person complaining about someone using a semi auto rather than the semi auto user themselves.

Bad gun safety is bad gun safety regardless of the mechanism of the gun. If anyone was seen to be dangerous, taking shots below the tree line, swinging through the guns or beaters, leaving cartridges in the gun between drives, poor barrel discipline etc they would be asked to leave regardless of the gun type and apparel.

[Scully]

As I’ve mentioned on here numerous times, anyone is welcome to shoot whatever they want on our formal syndicate driven days. As long as it is legal ( no S1 ) and you only load two then you can use a self loader or a pump if you so choose. No one cares. 
The safety aspect is no more an issue than any other action, and OU’s aren’t left broken very often on a driven day 
as they’re either closed or in a slip; no one walks about between drives with a gun, broken or otherwise. Walking guns are a separate issue, and whether they walk with their gun broken or closed is their choice, dependant on which side of the drive they are walking. 
It’s worth remembering that there was a time OU’s were frowned upon, and no doubt other ‘new fangled’ mechanisms before them. 
 

[London Best]

It was a 200 plus bird let day on a shoot with which I was heavily involved. I was picking up. Someone who had taken an individual gun was a well known local pigeon shooter with a reputation as a very good shot. Nobody noticed anything odd until the third drive. The guest was pegged on his own in a largish Wood, away from the other guns. I was asked to show him to his peg and to drop back behind him and pick his birds. As birds began to come over all seemed normal until, during a flush, I heard three shots. And then again. And again. I mentioned this to the shoot captain and he immediately took the guest to one side. The man admitted to using his auto and was asked only to use two shots for the rest of the day. He was also asked to bring a different gun if he wanted to shoot there again. I don’t believe he ever came again.

[fandango]

I have two triple crowns one in 12g and camo the other is a nice 28g wooden stock version, the 12g I use on the marsh and wouldn’t dream of bringing to a pheasant shoot, the 28g though I have used on quite a few shoot days and no one has said a word even though there was quite a bit of interest in a triple barrelled gun, it’s not often the third barrel is used and the gun doesn’t look out of place on a shoot day, also it can be broke to show it’s safe. Lovely gun to shoot by the way, got it for the marsh but can’t get me head around using a 28g on the foreshore (with TSS) after mainly using 4g 8g 10g 

Thing is … shoot etiquette and all..would a camo coated U/O be frowned upon 

 

[Raw and wriggley]

What about the beretta ubg25 

best of both worlds 

[Jim Neal]

I can't believe nobody's yet posted a youtube clip of Del Boy with his "bank robber" 😅

Go on then, I'll do it!

 

[Poor Shot]

13 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

I can't believe nobody's yet posted a youtube clip of Del Boy with his "bank robber" 😅

Go on then, I'll do it!

 

I love that clip 🤣

It's something that triggers me almost on an emotional level. As someone who grew up poor and still is poor I quite often worry that I give off that look when I attend events with those who would consider themselves longstanding in the sport and a class above myself.  Though not on the same level as old Del boy.

I do try my best but the thick Welsh valley accent, not having a range rover, £1000 shoot day attire or a bespoke game gun means I must stick out a bit. I feel out of place on registered clay shoots as well so perhaps it's morean issue with my own self confidence than anything else.   

I much prefer my syndicate days as we're pretty much all of the same background and standing. It's much easier to be yourself when you're not worried about what your fellow guns are thinking about you or your lack of traditional etiquette.

'You can't possibly shoot on a game day with that sporting gun, it's has extended chokes for gods sake' 🤣

[London Best]

Don’t even worry about it. Most sportsmen don’t give a hoot for your background. 
Firstly: define poor? 
I grew up poor and never earned over £21k/year, but I regularly shoot with people who, to me, are rich. Quite a few multi millionaires and several people on salaries of £1.5 million/year. These are people I have got to know through the shooting world. Do they consider theirselves rich? Not one of them, because there are far richer people in the World. Do they look down on me? Not a bit. (some of them sometimes have to look up to me when I wipe their eyes occasionally). I will be shooting next week with one character who’s family have lived in the same stately home for 500 years. He is obviously worth a fortune.......except not obviously because I reckon his old tweed jacket belonged to his great, great uncle at the latest. He looks as if he slept in a hedge bottom. His 35 year old vehicle is so disgusting I wouldn’t let my dog sit on the seats.

Nobody cares, just join in and enjoy your shooting.

[enfieldspares]

On 05/01/2023 at 14:42, Lloyd90 said:

 

An unloaded semi or pump or no more dangerous than an unloaded OU, you can just see the OU is broken (it could be broken and still have cartridges in it). 

 

In a hide for pigeon or duck an semi auto or pump is actually safer IMHO. Especially the type like the old Browning A5 where you can lock off the tube magazine. For a semi auto or pump can be kept pointing upwards at all times and doesn't have to be broken to reload which means that at some time that SBS or OU will be brought up from muzzle down to muzzle up.

[Walker570]

On 05/01/2023 at 14:42, Lloyd90 said:

 

Similarly to when clay shooting, a gun being broken doesn't mean it's safe or unsafe. It simply shows it's broken. 

An unloaded semi or pump or no more dangerous than an unloaded OU, you can just see the OU is broken (it could be broken and still have cartridges in it). 

 

I think the biggest factor here, is that it is not good etiquette to use a semi or a pump on a 'formal driven game shoot'. 

Much like it would be poor etiquette to turn up to a formal dinner, dance or event dressed in a track suit, it's simply not the done thing. 

 

There are exceptions to this, for example, disabled shooters who can't handle recoil on a OU but are able to on a semi auto, or similarly, children. 

I have seen a small child use a bolt action 410 on a game shoot ... this also couldn't be broken ... but no one seemed to bat an eye lid. 

 

 

The issue of whether they should load 3 shots or not is seperate to it being 'not the done thing'. 

I imagine, if they loaded 3 shots, but took their time, were selective with birds and weren't greedy, no one would even notice how many they had loaded.

 

 

If they have 3 loaded and were regularly blasting 3 in a row at every bird moving, the other guns may have something to say about their behaviour. 

Although, would it not be similarly poor behaviour for someone with an OU to be rattling off at every single bird going past even if it is "his neighbours bird" and just trying to fill the bag on his own?  

 

Firstly, the answer is yes. I seem to remember way back when a day being arranged for semi autos where every gun used such but it didn't seem to catch on.

Secondly with regard to 3 shot capabilty then how about double gunning when a good team could almost keep up and fire four ?  Hmmmmmmmm.

Don't get me going on stupid greedy shooters, been behind a couple recently who shot at anything even 10yrds away and 12ft of the ground.

In edit I remember using my 16g Remington semi auto on a walk and stand shoot when my side by side broke down. I was my own shoot so no problem there. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Walker570

[Gerry78]

On 05/01/2023 at 14:00, marsh man said:

Over the last few days there have been a thread on pump action guns being used on certain clay grounds and how safe , or unsafe are they if the person using it was putting in three cartridges ?

As I have got very little interest in clay shoots I read the various posts but didn't really take that much interest , it then got me thinking ? , Have I or anyone else seen pump actions used on formal game shoots ? , over many , many years I have been on 100s and I cannot ever remember seeing one , in fact for over 15 years I was driving the team of guns about and looked after the guns on the shooting wagon while the team went for dinner and in that time I had never seen either a pump or auto in the shoots wagons gun rack .

So lets say someone was using a auto , would there be any objection if he or she put three cartridges in the gun and fired the three shots at a driven bird or birds ? , I recon the keeper or captain would be told and he would no doubt have a word with the person involved , but that is only my opionion and it might not happen .

This have never been mentioned on all the pep talks I have heard or given first thing in the morning on a shoot day, and when asked the team if they have got any questions no body have ever asked any concerning the use of autos or pump actions .

So have YOU came accross the above question on a shoot day , this might well happen on a walk up day with your mates but I am talking about a formal game shooting day .

Over to you .    MM

MM I wouldn’t call myself a game shooter(pheasants) professional I beat and take the odd day on a DIY Syndicate using a o/u or s/s But this question was brought up last year to the shoot captain before the season started He’s reply was tradition he’s belief was that tradition is the only thing field sports has left I know this doesn’t really answer the question fully But nobody argued 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I was invited by the Head keeper to shoot a Beaters Day on a large Arab owned Estate in Kent many years ago.

He had an interesting sense of humour and asked me to shoot a semi-auto.

On the day, I turned up in good time, well dressed and kept my Remington 1100 in its case until I got to my first peg.

I opened the slip, removed the gun and loaded two cartridges. The chap on my left shot what should have been my bird.

I shot one and it fell at his feet, I looked at him and waved.

He didn't shoot any more of my birds after that.

Much chat in the gun bus on the way to the next peg and the Head Keeper thought it was a hoot!

[marsh man]

17 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

MM I wouldn’t call myself a game shooter(pheasants) professional I beat and take the odd day on a DIY Syndicate using a o/u or s/s But this question was brought up last year to the shoot captain before the season started He’s reply was tradition he’s belief was that tradition is the only thing field sports has left I know this doesn’t really answer the question fully But nobody argued 

Trouble is tradition can only last for so long , I first went beating in the late 60s and the gap between the beaters and the guns were as wide as the Irish sea , most if not all the guns had letters before there name or at the end of it , the guns used were without doubt side by sides and it wasn't till the 70s where you saw the odd over and under , these were mainly used by the younger generation , then as time wore on and the older generation were passing on then you saw more o / u's , the side by sides still showed up but these were mainly handed down from father to son , moving on to this century we found if a young to middle age group of guns bought a day the guns would still be mainly o/u's but instead of being mainy 12 bore they would be a mixture of smaller gauges , now we have a few more s x s used but again these could be handed down from what could have been the boys grand fathers gun , handed down to his dad and now it have been handed down to him , so tradition still play a large part on formal shoots but it could only be a matter of time when we see the first semi auto , the pump might still be a way off .

[Gerry78]

11 minutes ago, marsh man said:

Trouble is tradition can only last for so long , I first went beating in the late 60s and the gap between the beaters and the guns were as wide as the Irish sea , most if not all the guns had letters before there name or at the end of it , the guns used were without doubt side by sides and it wasn't till the 70s where you saw the odd over and under , these were mainly used by the younger generation , then as time wore on and the older generation were passing on then you saw more o / u's , the side by sides still showed up but these were mainly handed down from father to son , moving on to this century we found if a young to middle age group of guns bought a day the guns would still be mainly o/u's but instead of being mainy 12 bore they would be a mixture of smaller gauges , now we have a few more s x s used but again these could be handed down from what could have been the boys grand fathers gun , handed down to his dad and now it have been handed down to him , so tradition still play a large part on formal shoots but it could only be a matter of time when we see the first semi auto , the pump might still be a way off .

Yes MM I’m not disagreeing regarding tradition But if I’m told on that small DIY Shoot to use a break open action that’s what I’m going to use In saying that the same shoot captain uses all manner of night vision and thermals for shooting foxes on the shoot So the years of a duo of rifle shots one using a lamp the other the rifle are long gone Some off the other lads have posted that a semi auto or pump is no more less safe than a break open action which is probably correct but it’s in are minds seeing a gun broke open looks safer if that makes sense 

[Downforce]

On 05/01/2023 at 16:03, Spr1985 said:

if you can afford to pay for the day you should be able to enjoy it how you see fit

Agree with the sentiment but having enough money doesnt excuse lack of consideration to others or as pointed out by others unsafe practices, but at the end of the day its what the organisers are happy with and theres formal shooting and less formal shooting. On the evidence of others in this and the other mentioned thread it seems most people pick and choose the event thats fairly appropriate for them.

That said the example of the person shooting three shots on an end peg is indicative of someone that actually knows they're out of kilter with expectations and staying out the way to "get away with it"!

D

[Spr1985]

3 hours ago, Downforce said:

Agree with the sentiment but having enough money doesnt excuse lack of consideration to others or as pointed out by others unsafe practices, but at the end of the day its what the organisers are happy with and theres formal shooting and less formal shooting. On the evidence of others in this and the other mentioned thread it seems most people pick and choose the event thats fairly appropriate for them.

That said the example of the person shooting three shots on an end peg is indicative of someone that actually knows they're out of kilter with expectations and staying out the way to "get away with it"!

D

Hi @Downforce, you’d make a fantastic journalist or politician, picking and choosing what to quote (out of context too 👌🏻) and not quoting fully what I said to suit an agenda. I stand by my comment in its entirety. I could stand on peg with a semi auto with two shots loaded and still have more etiquette and integrity in my little finger than Mr A with his perfectly crisp tweeds and hand crafted Boss & co swinging it through the line, poaching birds and pillow casing low fliers.  

I never at any point insinuated that money allows you arrogance , lack of etiquette  or to forgo consideration for others. I merely pointed out that a persons attire and what they shoot does not dictate the levels of those attributes.  Although clearly if a person shoots a semi it affords everyone else on the line the assumption that they must be a menace and have a complete lack of etiquette. judgemental snobbery at its finest. 
 

Whilst I entirely agree with you on the point of it being “what the organiser’s are happy with” and that you need to follow the rules and expectations of the shoot that you choose to attend. I Also believe the shooting world should be entirely inclusive and far less judgemental. 

on your last point using the example of the semi auto shooter firing three shots and staying out of the way to get away with it…… I’ve always picked a peg at the beginning of the day and then moved up “x” amount of places at the next drive. So yes very likely that he put three in the chamber on purpose and probably thought he would get away with it in the position he was in, he didn’t choose to go to that position to get away with it. (yes it shows that THAT Person had a complete lack of the desired etiquette and morals)  But whilst we are judging one man’s actions and therefore tarnishing everyone that picks up a semi auto let’s also take the hundreds if not thousands of examples of bad sportsmanship, appalling etiquette and down right dangerous behaviour of those that happen to be holding a sxs or o/u and judge the entire shooting world on that behaviour 🤷‍♂️. As I said previously and as my original miss quoted post said.

“The  level of a persons  good manners/etiquette cannot be measured by what he wears or what he shoots in my opinion.”

[Downforce]

Diplomacy is really not my strong point, I just was trying to say that whilst I agree with the principle (as it relates to what to wear and what gun to use) if people want to be **** ***s they can be in the privacy of their own home and where they might have paid for exclusive use of a facility - fine.

I didnt mean to imply that anyone else's point was flawed just that I have met some arrogant folks that think everyone else should bend and courtsey to them because they have some cash. Oh I should add - these kind of people tend to show up at your Henley Regatta or other "posh" event to be seen at with not much knowledge or interest in the event but always seem to want to tell others what to do.

No criticism of anyone's point in this thread and seems pretty fair and balanced. My observation having the luxury of reading it a while after it was written is that theres not many (stated) examples of people having expectations way off the organisers so thats pretty self regulating in the main and thats a good thing.

D

Edited February 16, 2023 by Downforce

[London Best]

All this begs the question of who would actually WANT to go on a formal driven shoot with a semi auto?