The .410 – world’s smallest shotgun calibre

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC's Bill Harriman explores whys and wherefores of the .410, from obscure origins to its usefulness in honing early stalking and fieldcraft skills.

https://basc.org.uk/the-410-shotgun/

 

[enfieldspares]

And these shotgun cartridges 9mm RF, 7mm RF and .22 RF are they not smaller?

[bruno22rf]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

And these shotgun cartridges 9mm RF, 7mm RF and .22 RF are they not smaller?

Beat me to it, what a mistaka to maka.

[ditchman]

i had for a while as a teenager a "Boss 410 sxs apprentice piece sidelock none ejector".....i wish i had it now ..it would be worth a pretty penny

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Was my first Shotgun at 15, a DB Hammer 410, a little beauty,  paid £6 , Accounted for many rabbits and pigeons, 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, ditchman said:

i had for a while as a teenager a "Boss 410 sxs apprentice piece sidelock none ejector".....i wish i had it now ..it would be worth a pretty penny

A small fortune hopefully it is still in existence as I’m sure it could tell many tails 😊

[Conor O'Gorman]

21 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

And these shotgun cartridges 9mm RF, 7mm RF and .22 RF are they not smaller?

The clue might be in the 'RF'. Perhaps, if you are a BASC member, take it up with Bill if you are triggered by the semantics. 

[eggy74]

2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The clue might be in the 'RF'. Perhaps, if you are a BASC member, take it up with Bill if you are triggered by the semantics. 

Is semantics another way of saying accuracy ? 🤣

[Stonepark]

Bill needs to take his rose tinted spectacles and stop writing nonsense.

 

A 410 using appropriately sized shot no4, no7, and no7.5 is perfectly capable of killing winged game up to and including geese, pheasants, and pigeon respectively out to 30 yards.

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Bill needs to take his rose tinted spectacles and stop writing nonsense.

 

A 410 using appropriately sized shot no4, no7, and no7.5 is perfectly capable of killing winged game up to and including geese, pheasants, and pigeon respectively out to 30 yards.

The article was obviously written by someone who knows little or nothing about the use of .410’s in the field.

[Minky]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The clue might be in the 'RF'. Perhaps, if you are a BASC member, take it up with Bill if you are triggered by the semantics. 

 

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Bill needs to take his rose tinted spectacles and stop writing nonsense.

 

A 410 using appropriately sized shot no4, no7, and no7.5 is perfectly capable of killing winged game up to and including geese, pheasants, and pigeon respectively out to 30 yards.

 

1 hour ago, London Best said:

The article was obviously written by someone who knows little or nothing about the use of .410’s in the field.

And there you have it. What was the point of this nonsense. Basic promoting themselves as the leading force of field sports.?  God help us. 

[Konor]

The article reads like it was written off the top of Bill’s head with little effort made to inform or entertain. It has prompted me to dig out my American and British .410 Shotguns book,Ronald Gabriell, to reread. Perhaps you could recommend it to Bill. I haven’t a copy of Climbing the North Face of the .410 but I think it may be a source of information on the ballistics and potential of the .410 and a bit more up to date than The Gun and its Development ,W.W. Greener that he refers to.

Edited September 11 by Konor
Addition

[rbrowning2]

11 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Bill needs to take his rose tinted spectacles and stop writing nonsense.

 

A 410 using appropriately sized shot no4, no7, and no7.5 is perfectly capable of killing winged game up to and including geese, pheasants, and pigeon respectively out to 30 yards.

+1

Using small diameter like 2mm TSS shot the .410 is a killing machine past 30yards.

 

 

[mellors]

🤔. 

Isn't a 9 mm garden gun not a shotgun ???. 

Says so on my ticket. 

[Poor Shot]

I've shot a 410 a few times but never owned one. I much prefer a 28 bore gun, it's almost as good as a 12 bore in terms of load and ballistics but still light weight and nimble. Perfect for walked up shooting.

I did try a single barrel, hammer actioned Turkish 410 a little while back and I couldn't hit a thing with it. It was impossibly light and super difficult to control. It reminded me of the replica cowboy lever action cap guns that used those paper rolls you used to see as a child. Felt, swung and sounded just like one with no perceivable recoil from 2" cartridges. 

I do agree with the article in as much as giving a 410 to young child and expecting them to do well with it is really quite cruel. It really takes some skill to use them properly and an appropriately sized 28 or 20 with light loads would be a much better option. 

[Fellside]

I haven’t read the article, but if it does assert that 410s are not suitable for children, it is very misleading. They used to be hard to hit with in their old fashioned form - i.e tight fixed choke and 9 or 11 grams of 6 shot. The new generation of multi choke 410, which offers more open chokes, and with modern dedicated 7 1/2 clay cartridges, this is a whole different ball game. The pattern is wide and has plenty of shot. It is very (VERY!) easy to hit mid range clays, especially the beginner ‘settling’ presentations. Equally, smaller children find the larger bores (28 and 20) too heavy and can’t manage the weight. A 5lb modern O/U 410 is much more manageable for them. The writer should have spoken with one of his BASC youth coach colleague's - who will have a cabinet full of 410s for the younger and/or smaller children. I have been here and got the T shirt - with my young sons and their friends. I have also had them coached by BASC (using 410s). The modern 410 and the latest cartridge developments are a complete game changer. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

46 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I haven’t read the article, but if it does assert that 410s are not suitable for children, it is very misleading. They used to be hard to hit with in their old fashioned form - i.e tight fixed choke and 9 or 11 grams of 6 shot. The new generation of multi choke 410, which offers more open chokes, and with modern dedicated 7 1/2 clay cartridges, this is a whole different ball game. The pattern is wide and has plenty of shot. It is very (VERY!) easy to hit mid range clays, especially the beginner ‘settling’ presentations. Equally, smaller children find the larger bores (28 and 20) too heavy and can’t manage the weight. A 5lb modern O/U 410 is much more manageable for them. The writer should have spoken with one of his BASC youth coach colleague's - who will have a cabinet full of 410s for the younger and/or smaller children. I have been here and got the T shirt - with my young sons and their friends. I have also had them coached by BASC (using 410s). The modern 410 and the latest cartridge developments are a complete game changer. 

I think your comments and some others above are pertinent, but I think you probably should read the article also rather than solely rely on comments on the article for your comments.

[Fellside]

16 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think your comments and some others above are pertinent, but I think you probably should read the article also rather than solely rely on comments on the article for your comments.

When I get a moment Conor I will read it - cheers. Not picking faults here or BASC bashing. Just making the point that the ‘new generation’ of 410 and cart’s is a great way to start youngsters. 

[wymberley]

I'm a tad surprised that Mr O'Gorman hasn't pointed this out. Within a limited timescale it is not possible in a short article to be too precise, long-winded or pedantic. From Bill's point of view this article was intended as nothing more than a 5 minute read feature piece.

Although we're talking calibres and their effectiveness here, this may be handy in deciding what's best:

 TSS: What It Is and Isn’t | Shooting Sportsman

I believe that at the end of the day all of us know that lead is eventually going to go. So what do we do next? It would be a crying shame if the little 410 was to disappear.

What I think is unfortunate is that we had a facility in place that was able to help resolve many of the problems/choices that we're going to solve/make. Additionally, there was a high level of co-operation between it and other UK organistions which could help out in other matters which this outfit was not designed for. This facility was only set up for one specific purpose, but I believe that we - all of us, shooters, associations, makers, loaders et al - made a mistake when it was allowed to close down when that one task was completed. Namely, the Ballistic Research Laboratory.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

When I get a moment Conor I will read it - cheers. Not picking faults here or BASC bashing. Just making the point that the ‘new generation’ of 410 and cart’s is a great way to start youngsters. 

No worries, indeed at the Scout Jamborees where BASC coaches introduce thousands of scouts to their first ever experience of shooting, its .410 and 20-bore used. https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/2024jamboree/

[Ultrastu]

I have to agree with fell side on this .and disagree with Bill the author of the article .I find a modern .410 the perfect tool to start youths  and all newcomers to the sport .on clays and quarry. Including flying game .

What is the difference  between 19 grm of no7.5 shot from a  .410 and  21 grm of no 6 shot from a 12b . About 25 pellets  and 0.3 of a mm  the velocity  is the same  the power the same the pattern size and density the same  .

The biggest  difference  is that a .410 ou is a dream to shoot and handle  where the 12 b can be too long and heavy for smaller people  .the chance of breaking a clay dropping a bird  at 30 yds the same  .

I took my boy (15 years ) out in the hide with his .410 ou . Shooting pigeons over the stubbles for the first time (previously  shot clays ) .he took 30 mins to get his eye and confidence up and then started dropping birds all over the place. Shots out to 25 /30 yds with 18 grms or 7.5 shot .

He didn't wound any and the dog retrieved those that needed a dispatch  .he loved his day in the hide with his gun - confidence high .he had 22 birds in around 3 hours .not bad for a calibre that  "shouldn't be used on flying birds " eh? 

 

[enfieldspares]

7 hours ago, mellors said:

🤔. 

Isn't a 9 mm garden gun not a shotgun ???. 

Says so on my ticket. 

Yep. Did so on my SGC back a way then. In the house there were all three of the Webley bolt action shotguns the .410", the 9mm RF also stamped on the barrel, from memory, as "No 3 BORE" (?) and a .22" RF. The .22" RF in truth did less harm to what you shot it at then having them exposed to bad weather. Slightly less worse with later CCI .22" shotshells but the Eley ones were dismal.

I've also currently an AYA .410" No4 that I have had the stock extended to fit me. As per other responses to the topic I see no handicap with it firing 18 gram #7 in a 3" case as against a 28 bore gun firing the traditional 28 bore load of the same shot payload in a 2 1/2" case.

Edited September 12 by enfieldspares

[Poor Shot]

3 hours ago, Fellside said:

I haven’t read the article, but if it does assert that 410s are not suitable for children, it is very misleading. They used to be hard to hit with in their old fashioned form - i.e tight fixed choke and 9 or 11 grams of 6 shot. The new generation of multi choke 410, which offers more open chokes, and with modern dedicated 7 1/2 clay cartridges, this is a whole different ball game. The pattern is wide and has plenty of shot. It is very (VERY!) easy to hit mid range clays, especially the beginner ‘settling’ presentations. Equally, smaller children find the larger bores (28 and 20) too heavy and can’t manage the weight. A 5lb modern O/U 410 is much more manageable for them. The writer should have spoken with one of his BASC youth coach colleague's - who will have a cabinet full of 410s for the younger and/or smaller children. I have been here and got the T shirt - with my young sons and their friends. I have also had them coached by BASC (using 410s). The modern 410 and the latest cartridge developments are a complete game changer. 

To quote the article directly. 

Many shooters of my generation cut their teeth on .410s. When I look back on this practice, I am hard pressed to come up with a less suitable gun with which to train a youngster. There was this misplaced attitude that as .410 shotguns were small and light then they must be the gun-of-choice for training small people. 

However, .410 cartridges contain such a small quantity of shot that it requires very accurate placement to hit a target. There is nothing more disheartening for someone learning to shoot than to keep missing a target. A bit of success builds confidence and creates a desire to do better.

Thankfully these days, most coaches start novices of small stature with a 28 bore which to my mind is a proper shotgun and a far better choice. That said, a .410 is an ideal tool to teach nippers safe gun handling and to thrill them by letting them shoot at tins on a fence post.

Seems to be at odds with other areas of BASC if BASC are indeed using .410s as training and experience day guns. 

I partially agree with what was said in the article, if you just want to get a gun in the hands of a very small child for the very first time, aged younger than 8 lets say and let them shoot a few static targets or some balloons rolling about in a soft wind then 410 is perfect. Very light, usually very small, no real recoil and relatively quiet for a shotgun. 

If you have an older newcomer of say 8-12 or a child that wants to start shooting clay targets that are more than just a going away or a crow target then a child sized 28 bore is the better tool. Options for clay loads from 18 to 24 grams widely available, still quite light at around 5lbs (for a youth stocked Kofs Sceptre), relatively recoil/ report free and a shorter, thicker shot column which should produce better patterns. 28 bore can be used right up to point where the child wants to change to a 12 bore with 21 or 24 gram loads. 

That's not to say a 410 isn't also a good tool for introducing youngsters to shooting, it probably is and I'm sure as long as you keep the cartridges supplied the youngster will be having a ball regardless. Just IMO the 28 bore would be the better option. If it wasn't for the cost I would probably shoot my 28 bore a lot more at clay targets than I do now. 

I remember my first exposure to a shotgun as a child was with an antique, double barrel SxS 410 hammer gun with some foam duct taped to the comb to raise the comb height, probably choked super full and super, super, extra full. I was shaking like a ****ting dog with this thing in my hands and extremely nervous. I got to take two shots at a static plastic water bottle just to get over the nerves. I was ok once I realised that it wasn't too dissimilar in noise and recoil to the Chinese spring air rifle I had, probably less recoil thinking about it.  

[Fellside]

6 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

To quote the article directly. 

Many shooters of my generation cut their teeth on .410s. When I look back on this practice, I am hard pressed to come up with a less suitable gun with which to train a youngster. There was this misplaced attitude that as .410 shotguns were small and light then they must be the gun-of-choice for training small people. 

However, .410 cartridges contain such a small quantity of shot that it requires very accurate placement to hit a target. There is nothing more disheartening for someone learning to shoot than to keep missing a target. A bit of success builds confidence and creates a desire to do better.

Thankfully these days, most coaches start novices of small stature with a 28 bore which to my mind is a proper shotgun and a far better choice. That said, a .410 is an ideal tool to teach nippers safe gun handling and to thrill them by letting them shoot at tins on a fence post.

Seems to be at odds with other areas of BASC if BASC are indeed using .410s as training and experience day guns. 

I partially agree with what was said in the article, if you just want to get a gun in the hands of a very small child for the very first time, aged younger than 8 lets say and let them shoot a few static targets or some balloons rolling about in a soft wind then 410 is perfect. Very light, usually very small, no real recoil and relatively quiet for a shotgun. 

If you have an older newcomer of say 8-12 or a child that wants to start shooting clay targets that are more than just a going away or a crow target then a child sized 28 bore is the better tool. Options for clay loads from 18 to 24 grams widely available, still quite light at around 5lbs (for a youth stocked Kofs Sceptre), relatively recoil/ report free and a shorter, thicker shot column which should produce better patterns. 28 bore can be used right up to point where the child wants to change to a 12 bore with 21 or 24 gram loads. 

That's not to say a 410 isn't also a good tool for introducing youngsters to shooting, it probably is and I'm sure as long as you keep the cartridges supplied the youngster will be having a ball regardless. Just IMO the 28 bore would be the better option. If it wasn't for the cost I would probably shoot my 28 bore a lot more at clay targets than I do now. 

I remember my first exposure to a shotgun as a child was with an antique, double barrel SxS 410 hammer gun with some foam duct taped to the comb to raise the comb height, probably choked super full and super, super, extra full. I was shaking like a ******** dog with this thing in my hands and extremely nervous. I got to take two shots at a static plastic water bottle just to get over the nerves. I was ok once I realised that it wasn't too dissimilar in noise and recoil to the Chinese spring air rifle I had, probably less recoil thinking about it.  

In my experience of coaching 8 - 12 year olds a 26” barrelled 410 O/U with 14 gram Eley Trap 7 1/2 cartridges is the ideal set up. At this age, even with the bigger kids, the 28 bore is a little muzzle heavy and they start leaning back to compensate for the weight after a few shots. With the correct 410 set up - and with open chokes, they have no ballistic disadvantage out to 35 yards. Subject to skill levels, they can start on the more challenging stuff like skeet for example. By the time they’re 13 (if big enough), then a step up is OK. They grow hellishly fast and can often move straight to a 20 bore if they’re body strength will allow. 
That’s my two penneth in all of this - for what it’s worth………🙂. Ramble over. 

[enfieldspares]

14 minutes ago, Fellside said:

At this age, even with the bigger kids, the 28 bore is a little muzzle heavy and they start leaning back to compensate for the weight after a few shots. 

This. And sound commonsense which the poster of it beat me to the draw as it were.

I have known Bill Harriman since his Welley & Dufty days and it truly pains me to say this, which I do with a heavy heart, but if the shared article is a reflection of his expertness on this calibre then I suggest he put his copy Greener's "The Gun" up for sale on the BBC's "Antiques Roadshow" and researches the modern .410" and cartridges available for it in this the 21st Century.

Edited September 12 by enfieldspares