Which to change first, cartridges or chokes

[ElvisThePelvis]

As well as pattern it is always worth testing penetration as well. Not difficult. Soak some newspaper thoroughly and compact it into a pad about a foot square and at least an inch thick. Pin this to your back board and take a shot and see if the pellets get through at 35yrds. If they don't then you don't have enough penetration in my view. My 410 will go through and inch of wet newsprint and then bury itself in the ply the depth of the pellet. That's ITX #6 non toxic. Adequate penetration. It's ok having the perfect pattern but if it isn't penetrating into the vitals then a waste of time.

Thanks, this could be it, will give that a go.

I have the affinity and had the same problem, i changed the cartridge and choke.

I now use 32g clear pigeon number 6 and half choke for decoying and its works a treat!

 

 

 

 

Hi Ian, what sort of range are you shooting over decoys?

[ElvisThePelvis]

GB Dark storm is a bit steep, how about LE Pigeon power 29gram 6`s ? GB Black gold and Hull HPE are top end game carts and a bit OTT for pigeon surely?

GB are about to launch a new cartridge too after recognising the fall in popularity of the new type clear pigeon. They contacted me on instagram after I commented on a post of theirs.

Sounds good, only trying Dark Storm as I have quite a few from game season. Thanks for suggestion, I will see what I can find locally.

[dipper]

As well as pattern it is always worth testing penetration as well. Not difficult. Soak some newspaper thoroughly and compact it into a pad about a foot square and at least an inch thick. Pin this to your back board and take a shot and see if the pellets get through at 35yrds. If they don't then you don't have enough penetration in my view. My 410 will go through and inch of wet newsprint and then bury itself in the ply the depth of the pellet. That's ITX #6 non toxic. Adequate penetration. It's ok having the perfect pattern but if it isn't penetrating into the vitals then a waste of time.

I think penetration could only be a issue with home loads .Do not think branded cartridges would be a problem .Dipper

[Ian North Wales]

Hey, I’m shooting around 25 to 35 meters normally, But I can usually take one or two longer shots and still kill cleanly

[ElvisThePelvis]

Hey, I’m shooting around 25 to 35 meters normally, But I can usually take one or two longer shots and still kill cleanly [/size]

Thanks, I will put mine away until decoying I think, ranges for flighting, roosting, general wandering around tend to be a fair bit further

[wymberley]

 

I have the affinity and had the same problem, i changed the cartridge and choke.

I now use 32g clear pigeon number 6 and half choke for decoying and its works a treat!

 

 

I too thought you were using Dark Storm in the gun until I finally saw the Clear Pigeon mentioned later. If you do try the DS through the gun, I'd be interested in the result.

 

Do you happen to know what those clumps are? Have you, or do you have access to, Shotguns and Cartridges for game and clays by Gough Thomas? Chapter Seven - Cartridges - might just be of interest.

 

In the interim, change the cartridge for something slow and of reasonable quality - down range the velocity drop will be negligible.

Edited February 14, 2017 by wymberley

[ElvisThePelvis]

I too thought you were using Dark Storm in the gun until I finally saw the Clear Pigeon mentioned later. If you do try the DS through the gun, I'd be interested in the result.

 

Do you happen to know what those clumps are? Have you, or do you have access to, Shotguns and Cartridges for game and clays by Gough Thomas? Chapter Seven - Cartridges - might just be of interest.

 

In the interim, change the cartridge for something slow and of reasonable quality - down range the velocity drop will be negligible.

So my comments relate to 32g 6 clear pigeon, I will be trying the black gold dark storm in 30g 6 (English 5) to see what happens.

 

Annoyingly the pattern sheets I have have been recycled so I only have photos, but will try to track down the book and revert.

 

Comments about penetration make sense, one of the pigeon shot on Saturday roost shoot showed quite a few pellet strikes but was still quite feisty when I went to pick it

[ShootingEgg]

 

GB Dark storm is a bit steep, how about LE Pigeon power 29gram 6`s ? GB Black gold and Hull HPE are top end game carts and a bit OTT for pigeon surely?

GB are about to launch a new cartridge too after recognising the fall in popularity of the new type clear pigeon. They contacted me on instagram after I commented on a post of theirs.

These should be released in the next few weeks from what I have heard, speaking to some guys at shooting show about them..

[figgy]

I'd change cartridge and buy a aftermarket half choke as I find it suits most applications in the field. Why not try and get hold of some of George's Proper carts and see how they perform.

 

What choke does franchi use in the Afinity?

[ElvisThePelvis]

Beretta Mobil chokes.

[Stonepark]

Elvis, i have a 612vs and a alcione, both using mobile choke and find with most fibre cartridges, the choke pattern are 1 choke less than what is in the gun.

 

I would suggest patterning with a high antimony load such as white gold fibre clay as a reference and then compare actual patterns to expected, then compare your various game loads.

[Wilts#Dave]

Change of cartridge first off makes a whole lot of sense. How many pigeons have you shot with the clear pigeon?

Only say that as I've never really found a terrible cartridge through half choke in my guns, but I do find I'll take 50-100 shots often to get used to a different make of shell and often seem to wing more birds in that time until I really get on them!

In decent quantities (thousands) I've mainly used several budget loads on pigeons over the past 5 years all to good effect out to the usual 40-45 yards - Eley hb pigeon 32g 6.5 (my favourite hardest hitting load), gamebore velocity 29/30g 6 and most recently using hull super fast pigeon 29g 6.

I do find the plastic wad versions more effective at range with the same half choke.

[Whitebridges]

The Eley HB 32g 6.5 shot is my "go to" pigeon load.

[motty]

If patterns are the problem, I would suggest dropping down in shot size. I have shot many thousand pigeons with 7 or 7.5 and they are easily capable at 50 yards. An ounce of 7.5 has a fair few pellets.

I tend to use full chokes these days, but used to do ok with 1/4 and 1/2.

[Red-dot]

It's the bloke that misses not the choke that misses...

[BrowningB525]

Are you sure you don't have a minor gunfit issue? Causung you to catch the birds with the edge of the pattern. If you're a reasonable shot but not getting outright kills, it could be this.

Edited February 15, 2017 by BrowningB525

[Richie10]

Not giving enough lead. You might bet hitting them but you are probably far back on the bird.

 

Put in 32g 6s, half choke and if still not killing them outright then it's definitely your shooting.

[Cosd]

As many have already said, there are so many variables but I'll give you something else to consider as a possible culprit.

 

Is this reasonably recent? With the extra cold weather, have your layers become thicker? It could be where you've patterned your gun with thinner layers of clothing it seemed OK, but if you're now wearing a much thicker jacket for example that you may in fact be shooting a little lower than you'd expect. An inspection of the pellet hit on a few birds would soon tell you that....

 

Regarding the cartridges, my favourite cartridges were the original Clear Pigeons and I noticed a significant increase in birds coming down alive when I started to use the later black Clear Pigeons. My hit ratio didn't change dramatically but dead birds in the air definitely decreased; I think the Orginal (not black) Clear Pigeon carts definitely hit much harder.

 

 

Cos

Edited February 15, 2017 by Cosd

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Lots of valid points so far, time to take a selection of shells and spend some time at the pattern plate with half choke.

 

Find which shell has the best pattern and move on from there.

[Bobba]

As has been said above, cartridges are cheaper than a choke so probably worth trying out a couple of different types.

It's a shame you can't buy a box of mixed cartridges to patern with rather than buy a whole box, like paint samples only more fun.

Why not give Just Cartridges a ring. With their mix / variety / volume of cartridges they may be able to put a slab of mixed boxes for you.

[NorfolkAYA]

I have the franchi affinity with an extended beretta Mobil choke 1/2 and it's kills pigeons spot on with fiocchi tt 28grm 71/2. I picked the choke up for £30...I had been told that the factory chokes do not pattern very well.

[ElvisThePelvis]

Elvis, i have a 612vs and a alcione, both using mobile choke and find with most fibre cartridges, the choke pattern are 1 choke less than what is in the gun.

I would suggest patterning with a high antimony load such as white gold fibre clay as a reference and then compare actual patterns to expected, then compare your various game loads.

Awesome, I use white gold fibre for clays, thanks, will do!

It's the bloke that misses not the choke that misses...

I'm not missing..

Not giving enough lead. You might bet hitting them but you are probably far back on the bird.

 

Put in 32g 6s, half choke and if still not killing them outright then it's definitely your shooting.

Nope. Strikes are front quarter ..

[ElvisThePelvis]

As many have already said, there are so many variables but I'll give you something else to consider as a possible culprit.

 

Is this reasonably recent? With the extra cold weather, have your layers become thicker? It could be where you've patterned your gun with thinner layers of clothing it seemed OK, but if you're now wearing a much thicker jacket for example that you may in fact be shooting a little lower than you'd expect. An inspection of the pellet hit on a few birds would soon tell you that....

 

Regarding the cartridges, my favourite cartridges were the original Clear Pigeons and I noticed a significant increase in birds coming down alive when I started to use the later black Clear Pigeons. My hit ratio didn't change dramatically but dead birds in the air definitely decreased; I think the Orginal (not black) Clear Pigeon carts definitely hit much harder.

 

Cos

Thanks, gun is newish so clothing hadn't changed that much, I think it's the latter, I'm not missing just not killing..

Why not give Just Cartridges a ring. With their mix / variety / volume of cartridges they may be able to put a slab of mixed boxes for you.

Brilliant idea, I'm passing on Tuesday, many thanks

I have the franchi affinity with an extended beretta Mobil choke 1/2 and it's kills pigeons spot on with fiocchi tt 28grm 71/2. I picked the choke up for £30...I had been told that the factory chokes do not pattern very well.

Ok cool, have you noticed a difference all other tings being equal?

Edited February 15, 2017 by ElvisThePelvis

[Walker570]

I think penetration could only be a issue with home loads .Do not think branded cartridges would be a problem .Dipper

I purchased some branded cartridges from a well known Agricultural suppliers once. Had a day walked up and was feathering birds but not putting them down at fairly close range. Did penetration tests and sure enough they did not come up to standard, would not get through the wet paper. I have not done any tests on the Lylevale #5 fibres but will when time allows. It will be interesting.

[dipper]

I purchased some branded cartridges from a well known Agricultural suppliers once. Had a day walked up and was feathering birds but not putting them down at fairly close range. Did penetration tests and sure enough they did not come up to standard, would not get through the wet paper. I have not done any tests on the Lylevale #5 fibres but will when time allows. It will be interesting.

Been shooting a long time once upon a time there was very little choice of cartridges.For pigeon shooting at longish range we used the old eley trapshooting cartridge paper case felt wad .we could get them loaded in no6 they were capable of some long shots. The average observed velocity was 1020 fps . Today I don't think you could find a shell anywhere near as slow as that .The ones you used must have been rejects.Like you say tests on lylevale no 5 would be enlightening.Dipper.