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mgsontour

Boss taking you for granted

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19 hours ago, team tractor said:

Problem is that leaves a bad taste with bosses . You spend 40 hours a week with them so it’s good to get on

Fair point, all my haggling has been over fairly short contracts and directly with bean counters rather than those I directly work with. If in a long term post it may be worth holding off the negotiation till annual appraisal time. 

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On 13/07/2019 at 17:52, mgsontour said:

Hi, my son ( he is 22 year old ) works with a self-employed roofer and is getting taken for a ride. . . he turns up every morning at 7.45, picks him up and returns him about 5pm ( midday on a Saturday ) and he walks away with only £300 a week. . . .is normal wages for that kind of hard graft?
The reason I ask is the roofer charges about £200 per hour so there is plenty room for paying a decent wage or is he taking the ****

Let your son sort this out for himself or he will always be dependent on you to help him out.

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Its a job not a life sentence, picked up? non driver? labourer?improver? apprentice? i take the view it got me to here, where next? But to  look thru the open door is different to walking thru and taking the chance.  Whats work like in your area? is the firm jobbing roofers or big contractors on sites, but mainly what is your lad like? ambitious go getter or steady.

Steady alus want more but never have it to take a step.

 i started as hod carrier on a quid an hour in 1984, it was **** money but i could see the brickies on more so i took a day off no money to go to colledge, worked the weekends in stead, i was the lowest paid lad on that course for 4 years, i have reaped the benefits every year since, i still have friends from those early years who fall into the "nice to know where you are"  camp, we all work but for some it just takes you further.

 

 is this your beef or your lads?

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In all great comments from you all and recon he is not toooooooooooo badly done by after reading your comments, I still recon the roofer is expensive, , , , I didn't think that anyone got that sort of money these days, I assumed we were just coming out of a recession and heading into another one!

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your son is replaceable at that rate of pay,so if he rocks the boat he will be out of a job.

The roofer just wants cheap labour and at the moment that's your son,or any number of unskilled guys out there,if he wants to continue in this trade which is hard physical work but has financial rewards, in the end and that's where he needs to get,to the end and he has only just opened the door to that journey,once he is skilled and earning his boss good money then he becomes a valuable asset because he can get a top job anywhere or he could take all the risk and start on his own.

If he was working for me he would fail the test if he asked for more money now,instead of working hard learning the job and getting on with being the lowest step on the ladder and no employer wants problems from below . 

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33 minutes ago, vampire said:

your son is replaceable at that rate of pay,so if he rocks the boat he will be out of a job.

The roofer just wants cheap labour and at the moment that's your son,or any number of unskilled guys out there,if he wants to continue in this trade which is hard physical work but has financial rewards, in the end and that's where he needs to get,to the end and he has only just opened the door to that journey,once he is skilled and earning his boss good money then he becomes a valuable asset because he can get a top job anywhere or he could take all the risk and start on his own.

If he was working for me he would fail the test if he asked for more money now,instead of working hard learning the job and getting on with being the lowest step on the ladder and no employer wants problems from below . 

we all started on **** money you get paid for your knowledge in the building trade .the more you know and can prove it the more you can earn... 

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2 hours ago, mgsontour said:

In all great comments from you all and recon he is not toooooooooooo badly done by after reading your comments, I still recon the roofer is expensive, , , , I didn't think that anyone got that sort of money these days, I assumed we were just coming out of a recession and heading into another one!

Where exactly did you get the information that he's on £200 an hour?

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21 hours ago, stumfelter said:

Where exactly did you get the information that he's on £200 an hour?

He prices repair jobs at £700 for a half days work, of I agree some running around but expensive?

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12 minutes ago, mgsontour said:

He prices repair jobs at £700 for a half days work, of I agree some running around but expensive?

That doesn't make £200 an hour!!

So let's say just 2 men for 4 hours (half a day) 

What do they do for the other half a day?

How do they get to the job?

How do they get onto the roof?

Where do materials come from?

How did they get the job in the 1st place?

What else do they do that week?

 

Let's just consider as few of the things that are often taken for granted when people employ trades:

Tax, employees, their holiday pay, office staff/time doing those taxes and wages and invoicing and vat and...and...or a book keeper/accountant.

Premises (office,yard or storage space). Tools (I dread to think how many tens of thousands of £ I have spent on kit) 

Vehicles and their running costs, not to mention insurance. And then there's the public and employers liability insurance, that's incredibly expensive for roofers.

Scaffold, whether hired in or towers.

Advertising, training of staff and supplying ppe, accreditation to various trade bodies, down time (lots of the year roofers can be say twiddling their thumbs) and whether staff are paid on those days.....and loads of other stuff that I could add.

I think your son is probably doing ok.

 

Edd

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27 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

That doesn't make £200 an hour!!

So let's say just 2 men for 4 hours (half a day) 

What do they do for the other half a day?

How do they get to the job?

How do they get onto the roof?

Where do materials come from?

How did they get the job in the 1st place?

What else do they do that week?

 

Let's just consider as few of the things that are often taken for granted when people employ trades:

Tax, employees, their holiday pay, office staff/time doing those taxes and wages and invoicing and vat and...and...or a book keeper/accountant.

Premises (office,yard or storage space). Tools (I dread to think how many tens of thousands of £ I have spent on kit) 

Vehicles and their running costs, not to mention insurance. And then there's the public and employers liability insurance, that's incredibly expensive for roofers.

Scaffold, whether hired in or towers.

Advertising, training of staff and supplying ppe, accreditation to various trade bodies, down time (lots of the year roofers can be say twiddling their thumbs) and whether staff are paid on those days.....and loads of other stuff that I could add.

I think your son is probably doing ok.

 

Edd

Nail on the head.

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16 hours ago, eddoakley said:

That doesn't make £200 an hour!!

So let's say just 2 men for 4 hours (half a day) 

What do they do for the other half a day?

How do they get to the job?

How do they get onto the roof?

Where do materials come from?

How did they get the job in the 1st place?

What else do they do that week?

 

Let's just consider as few of the things that are often taken for granted when people employ trades:

Tax, employees, their holiday pay, office staff/time doing those taxes and wages and invoicing and vat and...and...or a book keeper/accountant.

Premises (office,yard or storage space). Tools (I dread to think how many tens of thousands of £ I have spent on kit) 

Vehicles and their running costs, not to mention insurance. And then there's the public and employers liability insurance, that's incredibly expensive for roofers.

Scaffold, whether hired in or towers.

Advertising, training of staff and supplying ppe, accreditation to various trade bodies, down time (lots of the year roofers can be say twiddling their thumbs) and whether staff are paid on those days.....and loads of other stuff that I could add.

I think your son is probably doing ok.

 

Edd

As someone who does what you do.

Amen.

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Excuse my ignorance but can someone work out for me how much £700 for a half day is per hour gross? Please consider access equipment/materials are not included then we could then subtract all expenses to work out how much profit is in the job if we were trying to find that out.

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10 minutes ago, mgsontour said:

Excuse my ignorance but can someone work out for me how much £700 for a half day is per hour gross? Please consider access equipment/materials are not included then we could then subtract all expenses to work out how much profit is in the job if we were trying to find that out.

It's not straightforward.

How many men?

Let's assume 2.

Let's assume they do nothing else that day (if the job takes 4 hours then getting there and back, clearing up, sorting materials etc wouldn't leave time to do much else)

I don't do half day jobs.

So £700 for 2 men for the day.

Let's assume that's Inc vat so let's say £580 (plus vat)

Take tax out of that leaves £480 (ish) therefore £240 per man equates to £30 per hour before you factor in expenses of running the business.

Not worked out to exact figures but it's an example.

Edd

 

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Not many do half days, odd semi retired might or if stopped on a job might squeeze you in. Otherwise Day rates only, why would you take half a day's pay for nearly a full days hours and not the to do anything else.

I've been called out to a job, been there an hour sorted out the problem and gone ten hours of pay with hour travel both waysas that's what day rate was agreed, another time I spent twelve hours during the night sorting out a pig of a problem still only same payment for a total of around 15 hours.

Your not in business to do work for free or at cost.

I don't believe you can overcharge if you say how much before the job and it's agreed.

If said ten k and other wanted three k but you got the job, fair play. Who says a surgeon is worth more than another worker, it's all work.

You get as much as you can for your work.

Here is one for you, fitting a new bathroom suite after removing disposal of old one.  Round figure for example £450.00. customer says after agreeing to price my suit only cost £300.00 from one of the discount DIY places. So why so much to fit. Another suite could cost thousands more price of fitting is the same. What may seem expensive to one isn't to another. Most time the cheap suite takes longer to fit as they're total cack. Same scenario goes for all trades.

Edited by figgy

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On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 20:01, eddoakley said:

That doesn't make £200 an hour!!

So let's say just 2 men for 4 hours (half a day) 

What do they do for the other half a day?

How do they get to the job?

How do they get onto the roof?

Where do materials come from?

How did they get the job in the 1st place?

What else do they do that week?

 

Let's just consider as few of the things that are often taken for granted when people employ trades:

Tax, employees, their holiday pay, office staff/time doing those taxes and wages and invoicing and vat and...and...or a book keeper/accountant.

Premises (office,yard or storage space). Tools (I dread to think how many tens of thousands of £ I have spent on kit) 

Vehicles and their running costs, not to mention insurance. And then there's the public and employers liability insurance, that's incredibly expensive for roofers.

Scaffold, whether hired in or towers.

Advertising, training of staff and supplying ppe, accreditation to various trade bodies, down time (lots of the year roofers can be say twiddling their thumbs) and whether staff are paid on those days.....and loads of other stuff that I could add.

I think your son is probably doing ok.

 

Edd

+1 on this employees never see any of the overheads always think they are underpaid rather  than what they are worth and yet you cant leave them to work on their own initiative ,you cant trust them to finish a job or even sweep up after without been told,  its like guide by numbers, then there is the mobile phone entertainment centre or the girlfriend phoning or txting  ten hrs at work after 3/4 hr for breaks you only have 1.5 hrs production  not saying the OP son is like this,   but sometimes people are paid what they are worth,  and all firms have busy and lean times,  the weekly bills and wages are still there  sometimes they pay what they can afford  

as with all building work if you are not happy move on  

Edited by Saltings

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On 15/07/2019 at 17:05, JDog said:

Let your son sort this out for himself or he will always be dependent on you to help him out.

hello, very true JD but not always that easy 

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On 15/07/2019 at 17:05, JDog said:

Let your son sort this out for himself or he will always be dependent on you to help him out.

On 18/07/2019 at 08:04, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, very true JD but not always that easy 

 

They dont make em like they used to. 

 

My Old man would have told me to sort it out or move on,

 

"your an adult now, learn to stand on your own 2 feet and welcome to the real world"

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5 minutes ago, Dougy said:

 

They dont make em like they used to. 

 

My Old man would have told me to sort it out or move on,

 

"your an adult now, learn to stand on your own 2 feet and welcome to the real world"

hello, my son has a form of Autism so it makes it more complicated to help him try and lead a normal life like work/ paying bills/ look after his home, as for the original topic i know from experience you do not learn much from those type of bosses, better to do a college course or of similar building  construction course.

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3 hours ago, Dougy said:

 

They dont make em like they used to. 

My Old man would have told me to sort it out or move on,

"your an adult now, learn to stand on your own 2 feet and welcome to the real world"

 

You don’t know what you don’t know. 

I’m sure there are some people out there getting taken for a ride, and they don’t know it. 

On 17/07/2019 at 18:48, mgsontour said:

Excuse my ignorance but can someone work out for me how much £700 for a half day is per hour gross? Please consider access equipment/materials are not included then we could then subtract all expenses to work out how much profit is in the job if we were trying to find that out.

 

Why does it matter? I don’t see what difference it makes to your sons situation? 

If the boss makes £20 an hour that’s ok but if he’s making £30 an hour your lad wants a pay rise or something? 🤔🤷‍♂️

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4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

 i know from experience you do not learn much from those type of bosses, better to do a college course or of similar building  construction course.

I would disagree with you on this one.

College courses are no substitute for real hands on experience.

I've had loads of "qualified" tradesmen who have been useless and loads of labourers that have picked up their trade over time that would be able to teach them more than a thing or two.

I don't think any of the roofers I know/employ/sub contract have any formal qualifications.

Edd

 

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I know a few tradesmen recently who “won’t get out of bed for less than XXXX” 

Some are moaning they have no work and refuse to work for less than their self perceived daily rate others appear to be fully booked , no rhyme nor reason  

one guy who was an apprentice years ago is now employing they guy who used to own the company he did his apprenticeship at 

i suppose it’s all down to supply and demand  

on a side note there is always an add in the local butty shop... labourer required 0700-1700 £50 a day, most of the tradesman say that’s taking the !@£&

 

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12 minutes ago, ph5172 said:

I know a few tradesmen recently who “won’t get out of bed for less than XXXX” 

Some are moaning they have no work and refuse to work for less than their self perceived daily rate others appear to be fully booked , no rhyme nor reason  

one guy who was an apprentice years ago is now employing they guy who used to own the company he did his apprenticeship at 

i suppose it’s all down to supply and demand  

on a side note there is always an add in the local butty shop... labourer required 0700-1700 £50 a day, most of the tradesman say that’s taking the !@£&

 

A rogue person will do it for cash in hand whilst also claiming benefits and it’ll be good money to them. 

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On 15/07/2019 at 17:05, JDog said:

Let your son sort this out for himself or he will always be dependent on you to help him out.

Best Information so far.

Live and learn!

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