Brexit - merged threads

[walshie]

What would the point be in holding a second referendum? If the result was the same, the remainers still wouldn't accept it. Vice versa if remain won.

We either need May to step down and let someone who believes we should leave deal with it, or let the clock tick down to March 29th. 

I'm a staunch leaver, but I would have voted down her horrendous plan too.

Edited January 15, 2019 by walshie

[wymberley]

34 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Not sure if it is the demise of democracy, yet, but i absolutely do believe this is a seminal moment in how the British public see and engage with our political representatives going forward and will last for many generations.

Clearly there is a level of elitism amongst our elected representatives in that they choose to spin the situation to suit their own agenda and they hold the electorate in contempt in dismissing the vote. The narrative that they give as justification is disingenuous and contrived.

I can understand why those who voted to remain may be happy at the thought of a rerun of the referendum if they think it will change the outcome, who wouldn't want a free second go after losing the first time, but for me that wholly misses the point.

I can be very arrogant and disparaging about the decisions people make and how they arrive at them, but i would never seek to subvert their democratic choice. In a democracy we will sometimes make collective decisions that are unpopular or highly divisive, but that is the very essence of the imperfect beauty of democracy.

For the parliamentarians that are so quick to dismiss the democratic choice this time, because it suits their agenda, then they need to appreciate that it works two ways and there are always unintended consequence.

What shocks me in the clamour to call for a second referendum by MPs is the complete ambivalence by them in how they are proclaiming to the world their fundamental incompetence.  In the rush to put Brexit on the too hard to deal with pile they simply demonstrate to the world their innate lack of ability and any MP who has done that does not deserve their seat because they are plainly incompetent to be able to do that job.

Not on my computer, so re your first sentence.

This all started - slowly at first - when there was no need for the working folk to rely on the clergy or any other select few to translate - ie read - the what was to them jibberish on a sheet of paper. It then grew apace post 1918 when the "lions" returned home after those left were able to clamber out from the trenches. The opening up of the education system to the masses further increased the pace. Not only were the general public now able to read but were also able to think and understand what was going on in their name. In short, the genie was out of the bottle. What we're witnessing now from our elected representatives is not new, it's simply that it's taken us as a while to appreciate it and it's the magnitude of this particular debacle that has brought it home. It is said that "familiarity breeds contempt". Well, I'm pretty sure that there 's going to be a considerable amount of it heading their way and deservedly so.

[Mice!]

Is it over? I have certainly got bored of listening to the MPs moaning constantly.

I heard on the radio that comrade Corbyn has gone with the vote of no confidence, so now what?

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I heard on the radio that comrade Corbyn has gone with the vote of no confidence, so now what?

He is widely expected to loose it, so another day will be wasted.  No Brexit progress.

[yod dropper]

Oh you leavers! You fail to understand the degree of sense of both moral and intellectual superiority of some of the remain camp. Some of them even know more about what you wanted than you did. Did you ever think you'd be taken seriously?

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

He is widely expected to loose it, so another day will be wasted.  No Brexit progress.

About normal then, but what of TM? Is this going to mean fall on your sword time, or getting shoved out?

If this was the best deal she could come up with, then are we still headed for the dreaded NO DEAL?

13 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

Oh you leavers! You fail to understand the degree of sense of both moral and intellectual superiority of some of the remain camp. Some of them even know more about what you wanted than you did. Did you ever think you'd be taken seriously?

How very true, keep voting till we get it right 😄😄 

[yod dropper]

I was delighted to hear Alistair Campbell say that May's deal was not really Brexit and not what was voted for in stark contrast to the provocative comments I continually read on here. We knew what we meant, pseudo-mind-readers who say they know what other people think or thought are often disingenuous or just charlatans.

[Lloyd90]

Just a shame May won’t step aside for someone who actually wants to leave. 

Mid she just hanging in there to conduct damage limitation for the EU? 

[JohnfromUK]

5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just a shame May won’t step aside for someone who actually wants to leave.

The problem there is that there is no majority in Parliament for ANY form of leave ........ and that despite the referendum verdict and that (I believe) more MPs represent 'leave' constituencies than remain constituencies.

Labour are whipped to follow Starmers '6 point plan' ....... which is really remain with no powers or representations and pay heavily for it.  They are playing (despite many Labour MPs representing leave constituencies) a political 'game' rather than carrying through the referendum outcome.

Tory are divided and (would/did) fail to follow whips orders

LibDem and SNP are firmly remain.

Parliament (our elected representatives)  won't allow the referendum verdict to proceed.

[Konnie]

So if we now don't leave Scotland will want another vote and any other votes offered to the public might as well only have one option on the ballet paper the one they want.

 

Getting like some African countries your free to vote as long as you vote our way.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

About normal then, but what of TM? Is this going to mean fall on your sword time, or getting shoved out?

If this was the best deal she could come up with, then are we still headed for the dreaded NO DEAL?

How very true, keep voting till we get it right 😄😄 

I doubt the queue to replace her is very long!

[oowee]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

The problem there is that there is no majority in Parliament for ANY form of leave ........ and that despite the referendum verdict and that (I believe) more MPs represent 'leave' constituencies than remain constituencies.

Labour are whipped to follow Starmers '6 point plan' ....... which is really remain with no powers or representations and pay heavily for it.  They are playing (despite many Labour MPs representing leave constituencies) a political 'game' rather than carrying through the referendum outcome.

Tory are divided and (would/did) fail to follow whips orders

LibDem and SNP are firmly remain.

Parliament (our elected representatives)  won't allow the referendum verdict to proceed.

 leave is accepted across the house with one or two exceptions. Rather than no majority for leave there is no clarity on Brexit. 

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

 leave is accepted across the house with one or two exceptions. Rather than no majority for leave there is no clarity on Brexit. 

The vote couldn't have been clearer, we voted leave, so either free trade deal or wto exit. 

[dead eye alan]

 Its a complete farce and time wasting tactics to stall article 50 and on it will go till the next GE. Then everybody can vote for the candidate that will deliver a true BREXIT!

[oowee]

38 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The vote couldn't have been clearer, we voted leave.

Corrected it for you. 

[JohnfromUK]

59 minutes ago, oowee said:

leave is accepted across the house with one or two exceptions.

I do not see meeting Starmers six tests as being leave - see below;

 

Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? Would pass as Leave, but is basically 'woolly words'.  I believe the May deal delivers on this anyway.

2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?  This is firmly Remain - the EU (understandably) would want the same "exactly the same conditions" (including all payment contributions) if they were to give the "exactly same benefits".  I can understand the EUs position ..... but this is NEVER 'leave'.

3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?  This is almost Remain because 'fair' in whose judgement?

4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?  This is firmly Remain - because it implies remaining in EU "rights and protections"

5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?  Would pass as Leave, but is basically 'woolly words' albeit ones everyone wants.  I believe the May deal delivers on this anyway.

6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?  Would pass as Leave.  I believe the May deal delivers on this anyway, IF the backstop is not invoked.

Overall - IF any deal was to be struck with the EU that passed these tests (mainly clause 2) then the EU would insist that;

• We cannot strike independent trade deals
• We would have to accept the European Court of Justice as having precedence over the UK courts
• We would have to accept their agricultural and fisheries policies (and notably not be able to take back fishing control of our waters)
• We would (probably) have to accept a full 'free movement of people' rather than a (conditional) movement of 'labour' (small "letter L")

Overall Starmers 6 tests were cynically designed to ensure that Labour could never be called on to back the government because they could always refer back to these tests ...... which are NOT LEAVING.  Therefore by my definitions the 'official' Labour position is not 'leave' in any more than name.

Edited January 16, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[oowee]

John you answered your own point in the penultimate sentance.

Overall Starmers 6 tests were cynically designed to ensure that Labour could never be called on to back the government because they could always refer back to these tests ......

You might not like it but even labour accept out of EU membership. There is no clarity for Brexit.

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

John you answered your own point in the penultimate sentance.

Overall Starmers 6 tests were cynically designed to ensure that Labour could never be called on to back the government because they could always refer back to these tests ......

You might not like it but even labour accept out of EU membership. There is no clarity for Brexit.

There is no clarity - I agree, but it is clear (to me anyway, and I think most others) that meeting all Starmers tests IS NOT leave - and since this is official Labour policy (I think, but they are woolly on this) it means that .....

1 hour ago, oowee said:

leave is accepted across the house with one or two exceptions.

.... isn't so (unless you count the official Labour position as "one or two exceptions")

[Walker570]

I am just hoping that whatever happens come the 29th that the news media print the full list of Remainer MPs so the country knows who to vote for come the next election.  I have a feeling there will be a queue at the Employment Exchange door.   It could change the whole nature of British Politics ...... if the general public use their common sense of course.

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

There is no clarity - I agree, but it is clear (to me anyway, and I think most others) that meeting all Starmers tests IS NOT leave - and since this is official Labour policy (I think, but they are woolly on this) it means that .....

.... isn't so (unless you count the official Labour position as "one or two exceptions")

I think we can agree to disagree as I am happy to stick to the wording of the ballot paper rather than what some interpret as the implication of the process. 

Either way it will be an interesting next few days. I cannot see an easy consensus given Labours tests being perceived by some as even less Brexit than Mays deal. 

 

[blackbird]

What’s this Brexit thing all about then ? There was something on the news about it last night, first I ever heard about it 🤔

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I think we can agree to disagree

I am happy to do that.

For the record - I would have the following 'tests' on my list.  We should;

• be able to make our own trade deals anywhere without EU involvement/interference
• cease paying large sums into the EU's coffers for 'membership'
• have the UK courts as the top level for legal judgement - NOT subject to EU veto/override/supervision
• have the standard UK Parliament and Royal Ascent process as the only law maker (who may copy/duplicate/mirror other inc. EU laws into UK law if appropriate)
• take back control over our borders such that WE have control over who comes in to work/live
• co-operate with the EU to ensure security and law and order, flight safety, travel etc. over 'geographic' Europe including both EU and non EU countries.
• not have any internal trade borders within the UK (i.e. not between UK member countries)
• have the ability to comb through and where necessary repeal past law imposed on the UK by the EU

If we meet those, then I think we have really LEFT.  In practice I would expect MOST EU legislation to be carried over, but it would be at our (Westminsters) discretion and not imposed on us by the EU Commission.

[Dekers]

15 hours ago, Lord v said:

Nope - I predict mass abstentions.

Well...…… I don't believe there were any!

Even I would have expected a few!

[panoma1]

Blowing the chaff away, the UK voted leave in the referendum they didn't vote for any deal!............the search for a 'deal' is a ruse manufactured by the politicians in order to muddy the waters and stop Brexit!

[oowee]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I am happy to do that.

For the record - I would have the following 'tests' on my list.  We should;

• be able to make our own trade deals anywhere without EU involvement/interference
• cease paying large sums into the EU's coffers for 'membership'
• have the UK courts as the top level for legal judgement - NOT subject to EU veto/override/supervision
• have the standard UK Parliament and Royal Ascent process as the only law maker (who may copy/duplicate/mirror other inc. EU laws into UK law if appropriate)
• take back control over our borders such that WE have control over who comes in to work/live
• co-operate with the EU to ensure security and law and order, flight safety, travel etc. over 'geographic' Europe including both EU and non EU countries.
• not have any internal trade borders within the UK (i.e. not between UK member countries)
• have the ability to comb through and where necessary repeal past law imposed on the UK by the EU

If we meet those, then I think we have really LEFT.  In practice I would expect MOST EU legislation to be carried over, but it would be at our (Westminsters) discretion and not imposed on us by the EU Commission.

Yep thats well and truly out. Only thing further would be widening the channel (take it off the french side) and closing the chunnel 

Where are you re the NI border? 'take back control over our borders such that WE have control over who comes in to work/live'

Not sure what has been said re NI border in the event of no deal.