Essex lorry deaths

[oowee]

1 hour ago, das said:

No, you do like China and build schools for them.

 

45 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Lost me a bit there chap.

And me. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

What? You said I was wrong about illegal immigrants getting money as that was the post you quoted. It was referenced so you could check, I fail to see how I could either know or not know as it is a fact.

What you say is not  fact and out of touch with reality. You haven't a clue, but why should I educate you?

Let it go - people have died. Remain in ignorance, if it suits you. Please don't quote facts which are just rubbish.

[shaun4860]

3 hours ago, das said:

Need higher rate of disability benefit.

Yes....but even high rate of AA won’t get you a car.

[Vince Green]

15 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

It’s not.....

The only way he could get a mobility car is if he had a mobility component of either DLA or PIP before he reached state pension age. He would then stay on that benefit.

Anyone starting a disablement benefit claim after that would be on AA, which I said doesn’t carry a mobility component.

Once he was reviewed after pension age they can decrease a mobility component but not increase it. But not on AA.

No court in the land can award a mobility component to AA no matter how far you push it because such a thing doesn’t exist!

Just goes to show doesn't it, he had  mobility cars for decades. A nice shiny new car every few years and living rent free. You can see how that looked to me, working sixty hours a week to pay the mortgage and driving around in an old banger. 

The only reason he lost the car was when his diabetes affected his eyes

Edited October 25, 2019 by Vince Green

[shaun4860]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Just goes to show doesn't it, he had  mobility cars for decades. A nice shiny new car every few years and living rent free. You can see how that looked to me, working sixty hours a week to pay the mortgage and driving around in an old banger. 

The only reason he lost the car was when his diabetes affected his eyes

I can see how it gets people’s backs up but not everyone on disablement benefits are conning the system 

[henry d]

8 hours ago, Gordon R said:

What you say is not  fact and out of touch with reality. You haven't a clue, but why should I educate you?

Let it go - people have died. Remain in ignorance, if it suits you. Please don't quote facts which are just rubbish.

No I won`t. You have either no idea about the differences between illegal immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees or have placed your trust in viral emails from facist/racist groups

• Illegal immigrants would find it impossible to exploit the welfare system as they would be undocumented and would risk deportation. This is why they are easily exploited by the unscrupulous.
• " As a result of the Welfare reform act 2012, only people with the right to work in the UK can collect national insurance contribution based benefits like jobseeker’s and employment and support allowance, and work related benefits like statutory maternity pay." (reference here)

• People subject to immigration control (who require leave to remain in the UK but don’t have it, usually asylum seekers) are also prevented from collecting payments like housing and child benefit, Jobseeker’s Allowance and universal credit.

• Asylum seekers are therefore in the position of not being able to take advantage of the welfare system. Imagine the situation for illegal immigrants. Even if they have a passport, they are probably from countries that require a visa to enter the UK. They are hardly going to march into the nearest JobCentre Plus and demand Jobseeker’s Allowance.

I am well aware that people have died in the most tragic of circumstances, my first post was on the shocking posts of some of the less than humane comments on their deaths. The reason I won`t let it go is the fact that some people seem to believe any tosh that social media/emailed to them and will regurgitate it without thinking, the initial post quoted from the House of Commons Library, parliament research briefings it is easy to access LEFT CLICK HERE

If those facts are rubbish step up to the line and without quoting your friend/relative/someone you know/"everyone knows that..." show me and the rest how these facts are rubbish.

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, henry d said:

No I won`t. You have either no idea about the differences between illegal immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees or have placed your trust in viral emails from facist/racist groups

• Illegal immigrants would find it impossible to exploit the welfare system as they would be undocumented and would risk deportation. This is why they are easily exploited by the unscrupulous.
• " As a result of the Welfare reform act 2012, only people with the right to work in the UK can collect national insurance contribution based benefits like jobseeker’s and employment and support allowance, and work related benefits like statutory maternity pay." (reference here)

• People subject to immigration control (who require leave to remain in the UK but don’t have it, usually asylum seekers) are also prevented from collecting payments like housing and child benefit, Jobseeker’s Allowance and universal credit.

• Asylum seekers are therefore in the position of not being able to take advantage of the welfare system. Imagine the situation for illegal immigrants. Even if they have a passport, they are probably from countries that require a visa to enter the UK. They are hardly going to march into the nearest JobCentre Plus and demand Jobseeker’s Allowance.

I am well aware that people have died in the most tragic of circumstances, my first post was on the shocking posts of some of the less than humane comments on their deaths. The reason I won`t let it go is the fact that some people seem to believe any tosh that social media/emailed to them and will regurgitate it without thinking, the initial post quoted from the House of Commons Library, parliament research briefings it is easy to access LEFT CLICK HERE

If those facts are rubbish step up to the line and without quoting your friend/relative/someone you know/"everyone knows that..." show me and the rest how these facts are rubbish.

Well said. 

[Scully]

If I understood the news correctly ( was bobbing in and out of the programme ) they were economic migrants? 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Illegal immigrants would find it impossible to exploit the welfare system as they would be undocumented and would risk deportation.

Despite support from a dubious source, you are totally wrong. This isn't something I have heard from a friend of a friend. Let me know when you discover that illegal immigrants hi-jack genuine identities to claim Tax Credits. Your lack of knowledge is genuinely surprising.

[welsh1]

Gent's last warning about very bad taste, i have removed another post and the subsequent quotes from people pointing out the crass post.
 

[old man]

14 hours ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

+1 we need strong leadership but will never achieve it with the monkey's we have in parliament. 

Still ploughing through here formulating an opinion.

BUT, ............that is grossly unkind to monkeys, many seem to exhibit far greater intelligence?

[henry d]

4 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Despite support from a dubious source, you are totally wrong. This isn't something I have heard from a friend of a friend. Let me know when you discover that illegal immigrants hi-jack genuine identities to claim Tax Credits. Your lack of knowledge is genuinely surprising.

All, most, some, a few? I`m sure there will be a few that can do this however they are using as you say genuine identities so they need to have the NI number and address to be the same and the employer/employers will have to be giving the same details to HMRC, the RTI (from the employer) and claimant have to be the same or the case will be looked into and then both the illegal immigrant and the employer are in the doo-doo.

[Gordon R]

henry d - You have a simplistic view of how it works. It is on a massive scale and it doesn't need the NI number and the address to be the same. HMRC file by NI number, not address. 

I do not wish to be unkind, but you are clueless as to how organised fraud works.

[Vince Green]

Its different depending on where the illegals come from. Chinese come here to work for other Chinese in the main. Other nationalities end up in car washes or moped gangs.

A lot end up working for dodgy builders, every morning about 7am fifty or more gather at a layby by an industrial estate near here and get picked up by vans and minibuses.

A lot work for various fast food delivery firms and others deliver leaflets and charity bags.

Also, just so there is no doubt, illegal immigrants can legitimately apply for and get an NI number, they are not barred, although I can see why they would be wary of doing so. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Vince Green

[Stonepark]

22 hours ago, oowee said:

 

More targeted foreign aid would help. Proper support and humanitarian missions and initiatives to countries in conflict. The creation of safe zones supported at EU level so the work is shared. Establish transit routes for migrants and asylum seekers closer to the point of embarkation. An EU wide policy for asylum seekers. A identity card system for the UK. Enforce and manage existing migration controls. Provide support and integration initiatives for new arrivals. 

 

How about we start with not encouraging and starting conflicts in other countries...... Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc etc

 

[oowee]

41 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Its different depending on where the illegals come from. Chinese come here to work for other Chinese in the main. Other nationalities end up in car washes or moped gangs.

A lot end up working for dodgy builders, every morning about 7am about fifty or more gather at a layby by an industrial estate near here and get picked up by vans and minibuses.

A lot work for various fast food delivery firms and others deliver leaflets and charity bags.

Also, just so there is no doubt, illegal immigrants can legitimately apply for and get an NI number, they are not barred, although I can see why they would be wary of doing so. 

There is also a legal duty on the employer to check that the workers has a legal right to work in the UK and the NI number is not part of that proof.

6 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

How about we start with not encouraging and starting conflicts in other countries...... Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc etc

 

I thought we were a world power? We don't have to get involved we can wait till the international problem comes here instead. Rather than not get involved maybe we would be better off sticking with the problem until its sorted rather than pull out when the shooting stops?

Edited October 25, 2019 by oowee

[Pistol p]

I remember those adverts when 'owt wer young' about damaging or ruining the seals on disregarded fridges and freezers in case a child became trapped inside and suffocated. I had this drummed into me at the age of six and I understood it. 

 Obviously these doctors, nuclear scientists and chartered accountants from the Far East, who felt the need to smuggle themselves into the UK economy via a giant fridge because we need their utter genius, had not. 

 Words fail me. Stupid is as stupid does comes to mind. 

[old man]

A very personal point of view expressed here with out a rant.

On reflection, no personal comment necessary concerning the loss of life. What is not close to home fades fast from memory?

Sadly due to the duplicitous ways of authority these days the real truth will probably never be known, seemingly some sectors always  misinform for reasons only known to themselves to gain advantage personally and economically? 

I personally apportion most of the blame towards the "enablers" as the participants must have thought the path to be taken would be better overall than the one current, how could that be judged? One throw of the dice maybe for betterment?

The traffickers, taking the money knowing the likely result

A fair fault seems to lie with our authorities who had been previously advised and knew of these lax ports of entry, why was this not remedied?  Could it be that they were left lax for a reason known only to themselves?

Why has successive government allowed the UK to be seen world wide as an easy touch and allowed fuelling of the current unsustainable situation, economic meltdown will only be one aspect probably? Other countries at least seem to acknowledge a problem and try to find solutions?

Currently it is not seen as possible to have grown up discussion around numerous sensitive areas of wide concern, immigration, gender assignment, vast numbers of unwanted horses etc. without the proposer being labelled and pilloried as some sort of extremist.

Given that telling lies is a human trait for some and these individuals are spread among all levels of society the futures dim not bright?

Common Sense in short supply?

And this brings full circle to the root of this situation?      Trust?

Just who do you trust these days, even here in this Sceptered Isle? ? ? 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by old man
spelling

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Now appear to be Vietnamese victims.

[oldypigeonpopper]

14 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Now appear to be Vietnamese victims.

hello, i see this on sky news seems 2 are of the above nationals so far, 1 a young lady sent a heart breaking txt to her family, more arrests have been made

Edited October 26, 2019 by oldypigeonpopper

[DoolinDalton]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

There is also a legal duty on the employer to check that the workers has a legal right to work in the UK and the NI number is not part of that proof.

 

I had to laugh at this bit, Oowee.  Let me explain.  A few weeks ago, my Thai wife received a letter from our Council, where she works.  The gist of the letter was...' Due to Brexit happening on 31st October, the Council has a responsibility to ensure that all its employees are legally allowed to work in the UK.  Since we have no record of your immigration status, please provide one of the following documents....passport, etc,etc.'  Funny thing is (perhaps not so funny!) she's worked there for ten years!  Why didn't the council check this when she got the job...or actually before?  For the record, she's got IDLR, British citizenship and a British passport.  The Citizenship ceremony was actually performed in the Council's civic centre!  My concern with all this is that, IF Brexit didn't exist, would this Council (and no doubt, many others) just carry on without checking their employees immigration status?  I actually tried to phone the person whose name was on the letter but couldn't get through. Then my wife took the letter off me as she could see that I was getting rather angry at this ridiculous situation!  If Councils aren't checking these things, what hope is there that other employers actually are.    

[Scully]

1 hour ago, DoolinDalton said:

I had to laugh at this bit, Oowee.  Let me explain.  A few weeks ago, my Thai wife received a letter from our Council, where she works.  The gist of the letter was...' Due to Brexit happening on 31st October, the Council has a responsibility to ensure that all its employees are legally allowed to work in the UK.  Since we have no record of your immigration status, please provide one of the following documents....passport, etc,etc.'  Funny thing is (perhaps not so funny!) she's worked there for ten years!  Why didn't the council check this when she got the job...or actually before?  For the record, she's got IDLR, British citizenship and a British passport.  The Citizenship ceremony was actually performed in the Council's civic centre!  My concern with all this is that, IF Brexit didn't exist, would this Council (and no doubt, many others) just carry on without checking their employees immigration status?  I actually tried to phone the person whose name was on the letter but couldn't get through. Then my wife took the letter off me as she could see that I was getting rather angry at this ridiculous situation!  If Councils aren't checking these things, what hope is there that other employers actually are.    

Good post. There are many many questions which need answering regarding this entire issue.

Apparently, one of these unfortunates ( or her parents ) paid out 30,000 quid to traffickers to ship her here. Where do economic migrants/refugees get 30 grand from? 
What do they think is going to happen to them even if they get here? Do they expect a job? Do they expect to receive benefits? Have they really no idea, given their chosen method of getting here,  that all may not be as they expect  once they arrive? 
Why the UK? Why are people so desperate and intent on travelling through various other ‘safe’ countries to get here? If they’re being persecuted and are genuine refugees, then why aren’t they claiming sanctuary in the first safe country they arrive in?
Why do they choose an illegal method to get here rather than a legal one? What are they so desperate to get away from? 

According to the news tonight, Purfleet has been criticised for its lax security for the past three years, why hasn’t anything been done to improve this? 
Finally, the reporter on the news was interviewing a local woman who claimed she has seen in the past, trailer doors opened to reveal ‘twenty four’ to thirty people climb out and just ‘wander off’. If it’s local knowledge it begs the question, how long has it been going on and under whose watch?

Is it me? 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Scully

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Good post. There are many many questions which need answering regarding this entire issue.

Apparently, one of these unfortunates ( or her parents ) paid out 30,000 quid to traffickers to ship her here. Where do economic migrants/refugees get 30 grand from? 
What do they think is going to happen to them even if they get here? Do they expect a job? Do they expect to receive benefits? Have they really no idea, given their chosen method of getting here,  that all may not be as they expect  once they arrive? 
Why the UK? Why are people so desperate and intent on travelling through various other ‘safe’ countries to get here? If they’re being persecuted and are genuine refugees, then why aren’t they claiming sanctuary in the first safe country they arrive in?
Why do they choose an illegal method to get here rather than a legal one? What are they so desperate to get away from? 

According to the news tonight, Purfleet has been criticised for its lax security for the past three years, why hasn’t anything been done to improve this? 
Finally, the reporter on the news was interviewing a local woman who claimed she has seen in the past, trailer doors opened to reveal ‘twenty four’ to thirty people climb out and just ‘wander off’. If it’s local knowledge it begs the question, how long has it been going on and under whose watch?

Is it me? 

 

Some good points. If the family is already here why do they have to undertake such a risky endeavour to join them? 

 

4 hours ago, DoolinDalton said:

I had to laugh at this bit, Oowee.  Let me explain.  A few weeks ago, my Thai wife received a letter from our Council, where she works.  The gist of the letter was...' Due to Brexit happening on 31st October, the Council has a responsibility to ensure that all its employees are legally allowed to work in the UK.  Since we have no record of your immigration status, please provide one of the following documents....passport, etc,etc.'  Funny thing is (perhaps not so funny!) she's worked there for ten years!  Why didn't the council check this when she got the job...or actually before?  For the record, she's got IDLR, British citizenship and a British passport.  The Citizenship ceremony was actually performed in the Council's civic centre!  My concern with all this is that, IF Brexit didn't exist, would this Council (and no doubt, many others) just carry on without checking their employees immigration status?  I actually tried to phone the person whose name was on the letter but couldn't get through. Then my wife took the letter off me as she could see that I was getting rather angry at this ridiculous situation!  If Councils aren't checking these things, what hope is there that other employers actually are.    

I understand that the checks are at the point of employment. My wife working for the same company, changed position and had to evidence right to employment again. Sounds like the Council is checking its own paper work. 

[henry d]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

Good post. There are many many questions which need answering regarding this entire issue.

Apparently, one of these unfortunates ( or her parents ) paid out 30,000 quid to traffickers to ship her here. Where do economic migrants/refugees get 30 grand from? 
What do they think is going to happen to them even if they get here? Do they expect a job? Do they expect to receive benefits? Have they really no idea, given their chosen method of getting here,  that all may not be as they expect  once they arrive? 
Why the UK? Why are people so desperate and intent on travelling through various other ‘safe’ countries to get here? If they’re being persecuted and are genuine refugees, then why aren’t they claiming sanctuary in the first safe country they arrive in?
Why do they choose an illegal method to get here rather than a legal one? What are they so desperate to get away from? 

According to the news tonight, Purfleet has been criticised for its lax security for the past three years, why hasn’t anything been done to improve this? 
Finally, the reporter on the news was interviewing a local woman who claimed she has seen in the past, trailer doors opened to reveal ‘twenty four’ to thirty people climb out and just ‘wander off’. If it’s local knowledge it begs the question, how long has it been going on and under whose watch?

Is it me? 

 

Couple of things; another report said that they can be 30k in debt to the traffickers and have to work that off first.

I would have asked those who saw people exiting the lorries why they didn't report it. There was also a taxi driver who said he gets people who can't speak English hand him a phone and someone gives him an address ".. somewhere in London..." to drive to, is he also complicit? He inferred that they were illegal immigrants.

[Landyjoe]

18 hours ago, Scully said:

Good post. There are many many questions which need answering regarding this entire issue.

Apparently, one of these unfortunates ( or her parents ) paid out 30,000 quid to traffickers to ship her here. Where do economic migrants/refugees get 30 grand from? 
What do they think is going to happen to them even if they get here? Do they expect a job? Do they expect to receive benefits? Have they really no idea, given their chosen method of getting here,  that all may not be as they expect  once they arrive? 
Why the UK? Why are people so desperate and intent on travelling through various other ‘safe’ countries to get here? If they’re being persecuted and are genuine refugees, then why aren’t they claiming sanctuary in the first safe country they arrive in?
Why do they choose an illegal method to get here rather than a legal one? What are they so desperate to get away from? 

According to the news tonight, Purfleet has been criticised for its lax security for the past three years, why hasn’t anything been done to improve this? 
Finally, the reporter on the news was interviewing a local woman who claimed she has seen in the past, trailer doors opened to reveal ‘twenty four’ to thirty people climb out and just ‘wander off’. If it’s local knowledge it begs the question, how long has it been going on and under whose watch?

Is it me? 

 

From going into various ports, I can say that a large amount have bad security with these trailers. 

Also, as seems to be getting missed. 39 people were in this lorry and it exited a port and onto an industrial estate with the only time it was known was when the driver called emergency services. If this had been drugs, guns, weapons then chances are no one would know. 

Also, what should be getting asked is why isn't there better border check for coming into the EU? These migrants are travelling through enough countries before they had got to the UK so should have been found before hand.