johnnytheboy Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 I had thought for a while with all the media being directed at us about non toxic cartridges that we are being conditioned before a lead ban was really on the agenda! In Denmark the idea of non-toxic only shot came from within the shooting organisations due to the thought that they were more likely to protect their sport by recommending the ban! Low and behold I seen a post on Facebook that BASC raised the issue of the transition to non-toxic ammo with the rural affairs minister! So apart from being annoyed that we are being undermined from within our community I thought I’d carry out some research about non-toxic and small bores as I was about to buy a 28b and the last thing I want is a gun on my hands I can’t get rid of. There doesn’t seem to be many options for small bore non-toxic hunting cartridges that are reasonably affordable, and I wondered if this will lead to the demise of small bore guns sub 20 bore. They seem to be banned in Denmark but I can’t find out why I suspect because they can’t push steel past the mandatory minimum speed of 400ms I’m just interested in what everyone’s thoughts are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 There are options other than steel and I reload my 410 shells myself AND intend to continue shooting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted January 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 Affordable options to folk that don’t reload? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhastings Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 Ban this ban that it is never ending. How about unbanning some thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 2 hours ago, johnnytheboy said: I had thought for a while with all the media being directed at us about non toxic cartridges that we are being conditioned before a lead ban was really on the agenda! In Denmark the idea of non-toxic only shot came from within the shooting organisations due to the thought that they were more likely to protect their sport by recommending the ban! Low and behold I seen a post on Facebook that BASC raised the issue of the transition to non-toxic ammo with the rural affairs minister! So apart from being annoyed that we are being undermined from within our community I thought I’d carry out some research about non-toxic and small bores as I was about to buy a 28b and the last thing I want is a gun on my hands I can’t get rid of. There doesn’t seem to be many options for small bore non-toxic hunting cartridges that are reasonably affordable, and I wondered if this will lead to the demise of small bore guns sub 20 bore. They seem to be banned in Denmark but I can’t find out why I suspect because they can’t push steel past the mandatory minimum speed of 400ms I’m just interested in what everyone’s thoughts are? What mandatory minimum speed? There is no such thing. Anyway, reloading is the way to go with small bores and non toxic. TSS is becoming a favourite for many wildfowlers using smaller bores for geese. Steel is still very viable, too. If there was an outright ban on lead, manufacturers would quickly bring out new ranges of non toxic to cater for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 On fieldsports Britain the BASC chairman was saying about stopping using lead shot, and spouted lead free petrol🥴 what the heck is petrol got to do with shooting. People were breathing in the lead with fuel you dumb ***. I was going red in the face listening to this from our biggest shooting org. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBodyImportant Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 In the USA, you can’t shoot ducks over water. But we have several public parks near my house that you can shoot clays over a lake. In fact Rankin Lake is where the city pulls drinking water from. It’s about gun rights erosion not about environmental protection. This is the Gastonia city park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Crazy isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 I also cannot believe the anti gun policies of the BASC sometimes. I choose to shoot 410 and I am more than happy to load my own. It ain't rocket science and after the initial outlay it reduces the cost of shells considerably PLUS there is a great satisfaction in using your own loads. I know that probably some clay sites may not allow reloads....WHY? because it hits there ammo sales of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Honestly, just stop supporting this bunch of clowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) We live in politically correct times, BASC can see the way it’s going with the EU currently likely to call for a ban on lead in ammunition and shot, how far and how quickly the ban will go is possibly the only issue, will it include all shooting or just that shot that enters the food supply. Yes we leave the EU today but will be amazed if we do not follow them in this as we look to stay aligned with them to make trade easy. Plus difficult questions like why is it ok only in the UK to kill our food with a known poison. also if the rest of the EU ban lead shot would it still be viable for the manufactures to continue in business supplying possible only the UK? Then we have the likes of WJ pushing the ban lead agenda at every opportunity. we can bury are heads in the sand but for how long? It’s very difficult to be optimistic about the future of shooting in this country at this time. Edited January 31, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) Copper is poisonous too. It's simply a question of managed risk and sensible, science based choices, rather than decisions based on bias, agendas or poorly considered end results. Personally, if (in rifles) lead was kept for target shooting and range use, but hunting bullets moved to copper monolithic I wouldn't care, there is a somewhat weak argument that lead ingestion in raptors causes premature death, in reality the threats to raptors are numerous and lead poisoning is way down the list of day to day threats they face. To my mind it's another further sop as appeasement. Lead in shotguns, retain for use in clay shoots on safety grounds (ricochets). For pest, game and fowl then move to steel. Arguably many more birds are pricked, survive and expire later than are shot with rifles and escape; rifles tend to be way more precise, effective and terminal. So there is a slightly stronger argument for making the switch to non-lead in guns as opposed to rifles. Again, in terms of risks I would imagine the ingestion of lead shot is similarly low down the chart of threats facing carrion or raptors. Any moves away from using lead should be science and research led. Currently I have not seen anything that lends credence that the threats are disproportionately skewed toward lead being the single largest cause of premature death in birds.https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/ Hunting is pretty much the LOWEST risk to wild birds (likely similarly in Britain, perhaps less so given the popularity of hunting in the US) - if you want to save birds BRICK UP YOUR WINDOWS. But, yet again, BASC appear to be acquiescing on the lead issue rather than challenging the misinformation. Edited January 31, 2020 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 11 hours ago, figgy said: On fieldsports Britain the BASC chairman was saying about stopping using lead shot, and spouted lead free petrol🥴 what the heck is petrol got to do with shooting. People were breathing in the lead with fuel you dumb ***. I was going red in the face listening to this from our biggest shooting org. I have to confess that I've always had difficulty trying to convince myself that there was not more than just the one in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 All about chipping away at it. The armed forces and industry should be banned from using it too. See how that works out. It's the best available cheapest metal for the job. TSS is better but far too expensive. Steel well soft iron isn't as good, yes it works in large sizes but energy retention isn't the same. Clays anyone, best grab the 36g 4 shot for the long clays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, figgy said: All about chipping away at it. The armed forces and industry should be banned from using it too. See how that works out. It's the best available cheapest metal for the job. TSS is better but far too expensive. Steel well soft iron isn't as good, yes it works in large sizes but energy retention isn't the same. Clays anyone, best grab the 36g 4 shot for the long clays. Not sure the military use much lead in the form of pellets these days, the lead in bullets is enclosed, no more open boat tails. Very little small bore shotgun use either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Ha ha, they use loads in rifle rounds, it's like saying we can use copper coated shot 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Don’t get me wrong it will be a very sad day if we see a total ban on lead in ammunition and shot, hopefully the scientific arguments will at least win out for target shooting and clay shooting where the lead is in a controlled area and as has happened in some cases been recovered. But this is our governments advice on eating lead shot game so can you see them not siding with any further restrictions on the use of lead if the rest of EU countries go lead free. https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/lead-shot-game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said: Don’t get me wrong it will be a very sad day if we see a total ban on lead in ammunition and shot, hopefully the scientific arguments will at least win out for target shooting and clay shooting where the lead is in a controlled area and as has happened in some cases been recovered. But this is our governments advice on eating lead shot game so can you see them not siding with any further restrictions on the use of lead if the rest of EU countries go lead free. https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/lead-shot-game if our government are so concerned with what we eat then they should be looking at things like this https://mphprogramslist.com/50-jawdroppingly-toxic-food-additives-to-avoid/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34615621 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 16 hours ago, figgy said: On fieldsports Britain the BASC chairman was saying about stopping using lead shot, and spouted lead free petrol🥴 what the heck is petrol got to do with shooting. People were breathing in the lead with fuel you dumb ***. I was going red in the face listening to this from our biggest shooting org. I totally agree with you, I also watched the same video. BASC have sold us down the river once concerning lead and wildfowl, now it appears that we are all going to roll over and accept a TOTAL lead ban WHY, WHY, WHY ???? Whilst my water is still being delivered through lead pipes (and probably some 70% of the Country too ) I am more concerned about that, as THAT is a daily intake of 'lead' . WHEN is someone going to produce DEFINITIVE PROOF, of birds that have died from ingesting lead shot ? This is just something else that will cause a lot of people of senior age to give up shooting altogether, and THAT is what we seem to be working towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFreddysCat Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 The lead ban for wildfowling has been in place for 20 years now. If ingested lead was killing a significant number, we should be overrun with ducks by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 It was blamed on fishing shot at first then shotgun shot so no birds can have died from lead ingestion in the last twenty years. Especially in recent times. We know all the arguments for lead, but they will fall on deaf ears. I think if this is bascs stance they will find their membership will dwindle down quickly. I'm only a member because of Wildfowling syndicate membership. Otherwise I'd not have anything to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClemFandango Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Storm in a teacup. The sooner a total lead ban comes the better. Then people can stop ******* and moaning and just get on with shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Sadly, things being what they are today, I think BASC have just about got it right. As we`ve seen from any number of recent political debates - look at the Welsh Assembly with their General Licences, Scotland with it`s desire to exterminate deer, Packman and grouse, Extinction Rebellion, Climate Change Emergency, veganism, the list is endless. Whether the argument holds any water is no longer relevent. Public hysteria, the internet, political and cultural warfare and, frankly, god knows what drives the forces that govern us. BASC staved off non toxic shot for wildfowl for over 20 years, It`s garaunteed adoption was signed up to by our government in the 1970`s. Research the history of ntx for yourself but it`s adoption had nothing to do with BASC. Unless our recent collective retaking of the democratic process and the growth of populism changes anything, those that make the decisions will simply ignore us. We are a powerless minority who refuse to engage with the opposition, the democratic process or those who seek to defend us, no matter how apparently ineptly. Our best strategy for survival insofar as the shotgun ammunition argument goes is to fight a rearguard action over lead and then embrace the alternatives. Defending the continued use of lead is an impossibility given that the opposition only have to chant "Toxic heavy metal, toxic heavy metal, toxic heavy metal ad infintum." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigeon jim Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 If lead shot was banned it would hopefully stop all the illegal use off lead in Scotland and elsewhere, I am sick of all the guns that still use lead in wetlands in Scotland including pheasant shoots and simulated clay shoots, even the Scone Gamefair run there clay shoot one year ( till I complained) around open running water ways,I used to shoot a wetlands on the last few days of the season after the Italians had finished a few days earlier, the place was littered with empty lead shells floating in the water,. Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted January 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 19 hours ago, motty said: What mandatory minimum speed? There is no such thing. Anyway, reloading is the way to go with small bores and non toxic. TSS is becoming a favourite for many wildfowlers using smaller bores for geese. Steel is still very viable, too. If there was an outright ban on lead, manufacturers would quickly bring out new ranges of non toxic to cater for it. In denmrk there is, not in the uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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