Lead ban & BASC

[Newbie to this]

48 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

has lead become more toxic

Depends on the use of the word toxic.

 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

And literally no less than five minutes ago, I have received an email from the NGO stating that more and more scientists are claiming lead shot in any quantities, no matter how small, DOES have a detrimental effect on ones health! 
I thought this had been done to death....with the full support of our shooting organisations! Is it any wonder people are angry?
If this is the case then it must apply to rifle ammunition also, surely. 

The problem is you get 10 'experts' in a room - and you get 10 different opinions!

[Newbie to this]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

😃I think he may have possibly meant within ranges suitable to steel. 

Yes, but his statement was not specific.

It was in my opinion intentionally vague to give the impression, that the two shots are comparable. Which simply isn't true. So it was at best a half-truth and imo with the intent to mislead.

[andrewluke]

if this ban is all about our health what about bacon,sausages etc which is proven to be a cause of concern healthwise ie cancer,

i'm about to have a look at the sausage forum to see if a ban is looming😁

[figgy]

50 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

if this ban is all about our health what about bacon,sausages etc which is proven to be a cause of concern healthwise ie cancer,

i'm about to have a look at the sausage forum to see if a ban is looming😁

Id be careful how you type that into your search bar. Could be some embarrassing history if your wife looks 😂

[greylag]

Reading some of the comments from the people who do not agree with our pastimes,they are rejoicing reading the comments from the shooting community.Infighting among ourselves gives them plenty of ammunition to throw back at us,and with the RSPB reviewing their policy on game shooting I should think that the removal of lead can only be a good thing.We are fighting for the continuation of the sport we all love and I for one will do any thing to make sure my grandchildren can carry on after me.

 

[mossy835]

first it was the GP medical, now its lead what will come next,gone down the river on both.

[rbrowning2]

46 minutes ago, greylag said:

Reading some of the comments from the people who do not agree with our pastimes,they are rejoicing reading the comments from the shooting community.Infighting among ourselves gives them plenty of ammunition to throw back at us,and with the RSPB reviewing their policy on game shooting I should think that the removal of lead can only be a good thing.We are fighting for the continuation of the sport we all love and I for one will do any thing to make sure my grandchildren can carry on after me.

 

Let’s hope your grandchildren get well paid jobs because they will need them to afford the sport.

removing lead is a good thing but the way they have gone about it is not very practical and a much better five year plan could have been arrived at. But it is clear this is about ensuring the very large game estates that make big money can continue its not about maintaining the ability to protect crops, or livestock or the other GLs.

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter.123]

17 hours ago, motty said:

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Sharpshooter.123

[Dibble]

2 hours ago, andrewluke said:

if this ban is all about our health what about bacon,sausages etc which is proven to be a cause of concern healthwise ie cancer,

i'm about to have a look at the sausage forum to see if a ban is looming😁

I believe the Association of Meat Eaters is about to announce a suprise 5 year program to remove Sausage consumption. This is designed to pacify radical Vegans and hopefully allow some of their more important members to continue eating very expensive steaks.

[mick miller]

18 minutes ago, Dibble said:

I believe the Association of Meat Eaters is about to announce a suprise 5 year program to remove Sausage consumption. This is designed to pacify radical Vegans and hopefully allow some of their more important members to continue eating very expensive steaks.

There has indeed been an inevitable groundswell of public opinion with regard to eating meat of any type. If we're to retain our eating of foie gras, we need to all become more proactive and begin a steady process of phasing out cheaper bacon and sausages over the next five years. The science is clear, sausages and bacon are high in nitrates and cholesterol raising ingredients. I have met with several other groups and we suggest that the alternative of vegan bacon is now suitable as a substitute, both in terms of taste and texture. The science is clear on this, it is just as effective at sating any hunger.

Edited February 25, 2020 by mick miller

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Yes, but his statement was not specific.

It was in my opinion intentionally vague to give the impression, that the two shots are comparable. Which simply isn't true. So it was at best a half-truth and imo with the intent to mislead.

Ok. 

[matone]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Is this Conor O'Gorman Head of BASC Policy and Campaigns? Or a different Conor O'Gorman?

I 've posted on this elsewhere. As others say welcome to the party.

Indeed the more I reflect on the BASC FAQ "reasons" the more the real reason seems clear. This voluntary lead ban is about protecting "big bag" commercial shoots which sell their game from a possible ban releasing reared game.

And to protect them the small driven shoot where the bag is shared, the gun who enjoys a traditional rough shoot walking up hedgerows and cover, the vermin shooter, all others too, all these have been sacrificed.

Why else the obsessing in BASC's FAQ with on shot game being sold into the EU? Why else the mention of game dealers and retailers refusing lead shot game? These are only relevant where bags are sold on by a shoot.

The FAQ window dressing may try to mask the intention but it now seems that the underlying reason is to save big bag shoots from a feared prohibition on large scale releasing of reared birds for commercial driven days.

And to achieve this the small time shooter and the hobby syndicate (in fact any activity we do where a huge surplus of game that has to be sold game doesn't get created) has been thrown under the bus.

And methinks this why the general "rank and file" BASC members perhaps weren't consulted in a Brexit style referendum. Because I think they wouldn't have supported this announcement.

It now must be that those that are BASC members demand an EGM, or ballot at an AGM, to order that the matter be put to a general ballot of all BASC members to decide who directs the policies of BASC. It's members? Or who?

The ancients had a two word test for the true actor of and motive behind an action.

Cui Bono? Who benefits?

So I'll match BASC's "cut and paste" of reasons for a lead ban with my own "cut and paste". This below:

"CUI BONO? Literally meaning "who benefits?," cui bono? is a rhetorical Latin legal phrase used to imply that whoever appears to have the most to gain from an action is probably behind it. More generally, it's used in English to question the meaningfulness or advantages of carrying something out."

If lead in shot pheasants shot with a shotgun is a poison then why is lead in shot deer shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead in shot partridge shot with a shotgun is a poison then why us lead in shot rabbits shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead shot in a limited defined area (a clay ground) isn't a problem then why is lead shot in the limited defined area of a rabbit warren a problem?

Or the limited defined area of a roost wood used by pigeons and shot in late February and early to mid-March?

The whole BASC FAQ is inconsistent nonsense.

Be clear this is ALL about protecting the "big boys" the commercial syndicates from a ban on releasing reared game and in order to do that the everyday shooter, the lad and dad shooting rabbits bolted with a ferret, the guy that enjoys a weekend a month out with his decoys, the February roost shooter have everyone been sacrificed as collateral damage.

 

Well put but you missed out the volume of kit sold to the various participants of the classes of sport.......cartridge sales,fancy pairs of guns etc,etc are pro rata with the big numbers days......who benefits......

[scutt]

This ban aint about lead its about shooting.Death by a thousand cuts.

fox hunting

coursing

air rifle licence

medicals

tail docking

G-L.

B.O.P.

GROUSE MOORS.

Would like to win at least one battle if not the war

Edited February 25, 2020 by scutt

[matone]

1 minute ago, scutt said:

This ban aint about lead its about shooting.Death by a thousand cuts.

 

Undoubtedly!!!

[lancer425]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

So on shoot day one or two gun decides to continue to use lead and the rest go for steel, who will sort out the birds shot which contain lead, so the game dealer does not reject the lot? Always assuming those using lead own up to it, ring any bells with wild Fowler’s?

you can see the bad press now guns continue to shoot with lead despite a voluntary ban and knowing it is toxic, support grows for a legal ban on all lead in shot and ammunition.

this is all or none as I see it otherwise it is pointless. 
 

You worry too much, if you think long enough and hard enough about any aspect of life or shooting , you can come up with some scenario where it negates the point of the whole affair. Just use it stop fretting and watch how its not bad at all. Nobody wants it but its got to happen.

[Ultrastu]

So if they take away your guns and ammunition. And they stop selling you meat in the shops .and your not allowed to hold live stock .how are you going to get your steak or pork or any wild game .??

This is exactly what the vegans are fighting for, its their end game .

Whats yours  ? 

 

[motty]

10 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor, why now , is total rubbish the so called new biodegradable wads that eley are using were being sold by purbeck shooting school in in 2013.  seven years ago and nobody has a crystal ball regarding any future EU regulations that may or may not be implemented by the uk government now we are no longer in the EU.

One wonders if commercial consideration is the real motive behind this and the single minded want of basc to protect game shooting which is big business. 
 

 

Don’t doubt that, steel will not really work in 28ga and .410 so what will we use and at what price? They are already at a premium price without all this. 

Why won't steel work in a 28 or .410?

[motty]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Is this Conor O'Gorman Head of BASC Policy and Campaigns? Or a different Conor O'Gorman?

I 've posted on this elsewhere. As others say welcome to the party.

Indeed the more I reflect on the BASC FAQ "reasons" the more the real reason seems clear. This voluntary lead ban is about protecting "big bag" commercial shoots which sell their game from a possible ban releasing reared game.

And to protect them the small driven shoot where the bag is shared, the gun who enjoys a traditional rough shoot walking up hedgerows and cover, the vermin shooter, all others too, all these have been sacrificed.

Why else the obsessing in BASC's FAQ with on shot game being sold into the EU? Why else the mention of game dealers and retailers refusing lead shot game? These are only relevant where bags are sold on by a shoot.

The FAQ window dressing may try to mask the intention but it now seems that the underlying reason is to save big bag shoots from a feared prohibition on large scale releasing of reared birds for commercial driven days.

And to achieve this the small time shooter and the hobby syndicate (in fact any activity we do where a huge surplus of game that has to be sold game doesn't get created) has been thrown under the bus.

And methinks this why the general "rank and file" BASC members perhaps weren't consulted in a Brexit style referendum. Because I think they wouldn't have supported this announcement.

It now must be that those that are BASC members demand an EGM, or ballot at an AGM, to order that the matter be put to a general ballot of all BASC members to decide who directs the policies of BASC. It's members? Or who?

The ancients had a two word test for the true actor of and motive behind an action.

Cui Bono? Who benefits?

So I'll match BASC's "cut and paste" of reasons for a lead ban with my own "cut and paste". This below:

"CUI BONO? Literally meaning "who benefits?," cui bono? is a rhetorical Latin legal phrase used to imply that whoever appears to have the most to gain from an action is probably behind it. More generally, it's used in English to question the meaningfulness or advantages of carrying something out."

If lead in shot pheasants shot with a shotgun is a poison then why is lead in shot deer shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead in shot partridge shot with a shotgun is a poison then why us lead in shot rabbits shot with a rifle not a poison?

If lead shot in a limited defined area (a clay ground) isn't a problem then why is lead shot in the limited defined area of a rabbit warren a problem?

Or the limited defined area of a roost wood used by pigeons and shot in late February and early to mid-March?

The whole BASC FAQ is inconsistent nonsense.

Be clear this is ALL about protecting the "big boys" the commercial syndicates from a ban on releasing reared game and in order to do that the everyday shooter, the lad and dad shooting rabbits bolted with a ferret, the guy that enjoys a weekend a month out with his decoys, the February roost shooter have everyone been sacrificed as collateral damage.

 

Sacrificed? Explain how! I fully expect to carry on shooting pigeons over decoys or at roost, or rabbit shooting if I choose - all with steel shot.

You do realise that pigeons will need to be shot with non toxic, if they are to continue being sold abroad in the EU?

[rbrowning2]

9 minutes ago, motty said:

Why won't steel work in a 28 or .410?

Because at this time we have no biodegradable wads as far as I know. Which is why I would have done this in two parts during the five years ie ban lead but allow one use plastic wads for say the next three years until the biodegradable wads are available.

unless somebody who has experience of steel knows of such wads, it is not possible to meet the conditions of the voluntary ban.

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[motty]

9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

But not with a biodegradable wads I bet, as none exist for .410 and tooling up to make them will be very expensive so will it happen?

 

But I guess you are not using the biodegradable eley vip are you motty?  Check out the price for them.

 

No, I haven't used any biodegradable wads yet. I am sure the time will come. The steel shells I bought today were £5.70 per box, so nowhere near as much as a premium lead brand. I bought 32gm 3s, so with full choke should easily kill my pigeons at around 55 yards.

As demand goes up, the price for all steel will come down. I expect all manufacturers to really start upping their game with steel cartridge development, in all gauges.

[Old farrier]

Just imagine lead price rockets maybe using it for electronic cars batteries 

from £1500 a ton to £15000 a ton a ten times increase 

would you all be shooting lead or looking for a cheaper alternative? 
 

 

[rbrowning2]

Just now, motty said:

No, I haven't used any biodegradable wads yet. I am sure the time will come. The steel shells I bought today were £5.70 per box, so nowhere near as much as a premium lead brand. I bought 32gm 3s, so with full choke should easily kill my pigeons at around 55 yards.

As demand goes up, the price for all steel will come down. I expect all manufacturers to really start upping their game with steel cartridge development, in all gauges.

So only partly complying with the voluntary ban, which is understandable given the extra you would need to pay for biodegradable wads.
But their are available 32gm fibres in lead for about the same so it is good to see you using steel. I think the orgs in trying to ban both lead and non biodegradable plastic wads at the same time have made it very hard or expensive for everybody to comply.

 

[motty]

9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

But that’s not what this is intended to achieve as I read it if your gun will use the current eley vip biodegradable steel cartridge and soon the bioammo offering them they want you to change NOW, not use the transition period as an excuse to carry on using lead.

The transition period is to they hope to allow the industry to create suitable cartridges for the rest, ie 2.5inch guns, 20ga, 28ga .410

 

 

I don't know why you assume this. I will carry on using lead for the next 5 years. It is not difficult to understand.

[rbrowning2]

Just now, motty said:

I don't know why you assume this. I will carry on using lead for the next 5 years. It is not difficult to understand.

Then so potentially will everybody else carry on using lead for the next 5 years and then voluntary ban achieves nothing, surly the logic is that you change over as quickly as circumstances allow. Which for most modern 12gauge guns is now using either the eley offering or the bioammo announced at the recent shooting show.

would be good if basc David could comment on this issue.