Is democracy dying

[islandgun]

Im not the sharpest but it seems to me that democracy in Britain is on the way out if you dont like something tear in down, obstruct, demonstrate, this is aided by social media, look at recent events like Brexit, the Scottish referendum, people are still wanting to overturn the vote Other examples are Packam or vegans. using crowd funding to make illegal the legal , Social media is giving everyone a voice and everyone wants their version of democracy. how will it end ?.... The science fiction films we  have all seen , where police patrol the skies looking for "freedom fighters" that live by crime may not be that far from the truth..I will be pushing up daisys by then...thankfully..🤥

[butchdickason]

My thoughts as well islandgun.

[Benthejockey]

Definitely. And the reason is because "normal" people like me and thee will make our point, let the other side make their point and so on. When we make our point and then rabid frothing loony toon rages to get their point over and doesn't give you chance for a rebuttal we walk away shaking our head think what a knob. And thus democracy is slowly eroded. 

[Guest cookoff013]

its getting more like 1984.

seems like the" 2 minutes hate" has been going for quite a while.

social media is a greater voice than common sense. seems everyone has an agenda and will probably reverse it with enough backlash. the recent events of that poor soul dying at the hands of someone who should "protect and serve" has angered quite a few internationally. It actually wont end. take trump. he is using a social media to contact the population direct. even internationally. he is special, and gets to post unrestricted. what a covfefe !
its actually genius. 
 

[islandgun]

The demonstrations are a good example, thousands were able to communicate via social media then proceed against most peoples better judgement to congregate in a pandemic. they did this without hindrance, [I am not a advocating police action as i think this would have made it worse] but its the lack of consideration for others or their wishes that amazes me

[Bobba]

And mob rule by the minority prevails, as in Bristol at the weekend where, because of the Avon & Somerset police low key approach to the Demo they took no action and allowed destruction of public property. Destroyed because the minority regarded a statue as offensive to "their" views. More worryingly are the views of the Mayor of Bristol who regarded critics of what took place as showing an "absolute lack of understanding". Clearly he supports minority mob rule if it suits his personal agenda rather than the views of the majority of the people of Bristol. (Respondents to a newspaper poll showed a majority of Bristol people in favour of retaining the statue)

[Raja Clavata]

I don't think democracy is dying. The world is changing, in some respects through very small changes / steps and others on a much more pronounced and rapid scale.

I can only imagine the struggle that people who view the majority of the world in black and white terms (I don't mean race!) must be having in trying to get their heads around all this.

In your case are you sure you're not just looking back at the past, not the recent past, with rose tinted glasses?

[ditchman]

democracy is alive and well

 

 

so is Momentum..........

[JohnfromUK]

42 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Im not the sharpest but it seems to me that democracy in Britain is on the way out if you dont like something tear in down, obstruct, demonstrate, this is aided by social media, look at recent events like Brexit, the Scottish referendum, people are still wanting to overturn the vote Other examples are Packam or vegans. using crowd funding to make illegal the legal , Social media is giving everyone a voice and everyone wants their version of democracy. how will it end ?.... The science fiction films we  have all seen , where police patrol the skies looking for "freedom fighters" that live by crime may not be that far from the truth..I will be pushing up daisys by then...thankfully..🤥

I think you are quite right. 

However, I think it isn't that new, and I have to admit that many changes that have come about from protests have been for the better (and no doubt some haven't).

Looking back over the last 50 years (roughly what I can remember from personal experience) key ones that stand out (in my own memory and in no particular order) are;

1. The miners strikes - eventually 'resolved' and very much to the detriment of the miners and their jobs (though ironically the 'Green' and left of centre ER movements now would have been against widespread use of coal if it was still prevalent).
2. The Grunwick/Fleet Street strikes (where eventually common sense prevailed)
3. The British Leyland strikes (where again eventually common sense prevailed - though the business never really recovered)
4. The Poll tax riots (where the government (wrongly in my view) backed down

I believe that we have a society in which we have quite a lot of 'knowledge' of who the actual trouble makers are (from the various government agencies etc.) but we are unable to act because our justice system seems to only operate after a crime or illegal event.  We do have laws for 'conspiracy' where the planning of a crime is in itself an offence.  This rarely if ever gets used, I suspect because the evidence needed to prove to legal standards isn't readily available (or the 'government agencies' cannot release it to protect their own interests).

In my view we need to be MUCH more proactive in striking at the organisers of the violence (who are in reality hijacking a demonstration that is intended by most to be non violent).

[Gordon R]

John - excellent post.

[Cosmicblue]

I think democracy is still there however much of the world has become more aware of events because of the wide spread use of the internet as a means of distributing information.  That would be great if it were not the case that the misinformed and downright malicious can use the internet and it's associated anarchistic tools - namely social media.

So now unless one is extremely careful it's possible to be misguided and deceived by 'fake news' or worse still bits of 'truth' assembled to push an argument or influence a point of view.

A case in point would be the reported racial events in the US generating reactions around the world including the events in Bristol last weekend - so some slave trader statue ends up in the harbour.  Pre-internet there would have been a delay in the news arriving elsewhere in the world and likely less of a reaction. 

[Chris B123]

I don't know whether democracy is at risk, but law and order surely is.

[johnphilip]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

Im not the sharpest but it seems to me that democracy in Britain is on the way out if you dont like something tear in down, obstruct, demonstrate, this is aided by social media, look at recent events like Brexit, the Scottish referendum, people are still wanting to overturn the vote Other examples are Packam or vegans. using crowd funding to make illegal the legal , Social media is giving everyone a voice and everyone wants their version of democracy. how will it end ?.... The science fiction films we  have all seen , where police patrol the skies looking for "freedom fighters" that live by crime may not be that far from the truth..I will be pushing up daisys by then...thankfully..🤥

I think you are spot on with everything you say , I belive that those who wont accept  something , are liken to a small child as you say , Brexit  , here in Scotland  indy 54 . 😂 .

I will scream and scream till I get my way . They have not grown up . They are the ones who see things through rose tinned glasses not us . Scotland  to be independent  oh how magical  is that . And when something  goes wrong who has to pick up the pieces  , as those who wished are nowhere to be seen . .......? Yes your right , and sharpest is not a problem seeing what is wrong is more important  .

[Dave-G]

I think that is correct. I still recall Blair and Cameron yapping about how broadband for everyone up and down the land will be wonderful or words to that effect, look what its led too.

The public can now communicate freely and read information that was previously withheld from them as well as cohort and instigate almost any action they feel like - and get it crowd funded too.  

Universities seem intent on subverting history about anything that offends their lecturers to manipulate easily lead and stirred students.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, Chris B123 said:

I don't know whether democracy is at risk, but law and order surely is.

You are right - and look no further than the Chief Constables ........... who (in Bristol anyway) seem to think that maintaining a semblance of 'order' by allowing blatant law breaking ticks the box on their obsession with performance against targets as a 'success'.

That is how and why violence is winning the day.

[Farmboy91]

Some very good points above.

For me along with the internet and misinformation, it's how fashionable it is to be doing the current trend, ie at the moment the 'protests'.

There's plenty of bandwagons to be jumping on and people can't seem to help themselves. 

I've seen posts elsewhere along the lines of    ' if your not supporting what I'm saying your an oppresser too'.

 

[matone]

I think that the problem is that the younger generations have realised that there is little chance of `law & order` affecting them,no matter what they get up to.

It all stems from the gradual withdrawal of effective local policing ,ie the Police living in your village etc.Certainly my locale is now overun with feral lowlife who have no fear of a policeman!!! I guess inner city areas have been like this for many years.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Farmboy91 said:

I've seen posts elsewhere along the lines of    ' if your not supporting what I'm saying your an oppresser too'.

Yes - and apparently now to say (as I have done) "ALL lives matter" is racist.  I cannot for the life of me think why that should be so.

If anything "Black lives matter" implying other lives don't is racist, but I won't go there.  I happen to believe that "ALL lives matter" taken literally is how it should be and I cannot see how any right thinking person could disagree.

[Raja Clavata]

John's posts aside, which I agree with 100%, it would appear that we have more or less arrived at the usual old 'uns blaming the young 'uns, that's just so Pigeonwatch...

[islandgun]

51 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think you are quite right. 

However, I think it isn't that new, and I have to admit that many changes that have come about from protests have been for the better (and no doubt some haven't).

Looking back over the last 50 years (roughly what I can remember from personal experience) key ones that stand out (in my own memory and in no particular order) are;

1. The miners strikes - eventually 'resolved' and very much to the detriment of the miners and their jobs (though ironically the 'Green' and left of centre ER movements now would have been against widespread use of coal if it was still prevalent).
2. The Grunwick/Fleet Street strikes (where eventually common sense prevailed)
3. The British Leyland strikes (where again eventually common sense prevailed - though the business never really recovered)
4. The Poll tax riots (where the government (wrongly in my view) backed down

I believe that we have a society in which we have quite a lot of 'knowledge' of who the actual trouble makers are (from the various government agencies etc.) but we are unable to act because our justice system seems to only operate after a crime or illegal event.  We do have laws for 'conspiracy' where the planning of a crime is in itself an offence.  This rarely if ever gets used, I suspect because the evidence needed to prove to legal standards isn't readily available (or the 'government agencies' cannot release it to protect their own interests).

In my view we need to be MUCH more proactive in striking at the organisers of the violence (who are in reality hijacking a demonstration that is intended by most to be non violent).

The supporters of the arrested organisers will take their place and enrol greater numbers of followers, 

My own children [late teens] were telling me about someone they know on a social media platform after suggesting that "all lives matter" was bombarded with abuse and threats..  the point of my original post  was not about us and them, just more of the general intolerance of society and the non acceptance of the rule of law and eventually democracy

[clangerman]

democracy isn’t that the stuff where ALL opinions count and ALL views matter hmmmmm? 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

democracy isn’t that the stuff where ALL opinions count and ALL views matter hmmmmm? 

Democracy - isn’t that the stuff where ALL opinions are taken into account and ALL views matter, the outcome (where a 'one or the other' decision is needed) being decided by the majority view. 

Typically put into practice through elected representatives (such as MPs) who in turn take decisions on behalf of the electorate, but also sometimes by referendum.

Hence we elect MPs who typically stand on behalf of a 'Party' whose views they agree with, who they agree to support - and in return receive assistance with their election campaign etc.  A the Party with a sufficient number of MPs to form a majority as a party (and thus win votes in the Parliament/Assembly) forms a government.  The Party has a leader (again selected usually pre election by vote) - and the leader chooses MPs or other Parliamentary attendees (e.g. Lords assembly members) to hold the offices of State and attend the Cabinet that forms policy - which it places before the elected representatives (MPs) in order to receive their assent (by majority) and become Law of the Land.

NOTE: the word 'majority' features prominently and is key to ensuring democracy functions in a fair manner.

 

[CharlieT]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

You are right - and look no further than the Chief Constables ........... who (in Bristol anyway) seem to think that maintaining a semblance of 'order' by allowing blatant law breaking ticks the box on their obsession with performance against targets as a 'success'.

That is how and why violence is winning the day.

Exactly, and that from the very same Chief Constable who was, until recently, boss of the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group, the very body that implements and advises all CC's on firearms licensing matters.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

and that from the very same Chief Constable who was, until recently, boss of the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group, the very body that implements and advises all CC's on firearms licensing matters.

That I didn't know.

[islandgun]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Democracy - isn’t that the stuff where ALL opinions are taken into account and ALL views matter, the outcome (where a 'one or the other' decision is needed) being decided by the majority view. 

Typically put into practice through elected representatives (such as MPs) who in turn take decisions on behalf of the electorate, but also sometimes by referendum.

Hence we elect MPs who typically stand on behalf of a 'Party' whose views they agree with, who they agree to support - and in return receive assistance with their election campaign etc.  A the Party with a sufficient number of MPs to form a majority as a party (and thus win votes in the Parliament/Assembly) forms a government.  The Party has a leader (again selected usually pre election by vote) - and the leader chooses MPs or other Parliamentary attendees (e.g. Lords assembly members) to hold the offices of State and attend the Cabinet that forms policy - which it places before the elected representatives (MPs) in order to receive their assent (by majority) and become Law of the Land.

NOTE: the word 'majority' features prominently and is key to ensuring democracy functions in a fair manner.

 

👍 Well put....That is the essential point and sadly the opposite view of many,  [young and old] .