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Bic cats aroaming on Snowdon...


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3 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

Why not? That's a pretty bleak way of looking at mankind. What evidence have you to say TT's unreliable? Everything you could glean from this forum about TT would suggest as a witness, his word would be credible on any other subject. Plus this is camera trap footage. Even if TT had never seen any form of big cat before on a trap, I'm sure he's observant and knowledgeable enough to see it on the trap and be able to rule out a sika, muntjac, red, fallow, CWD, roe, fox, badger, otter, mink, hedgehog, vole, eagle, buzzard, red kite, goose, pangolin... or anything else that might wander past. 

In a way, I'm assuming you genuinely don't believe him, as I'd prefer that to just trying to goad a chap into breaking his word. That would be very bad form.

I'm sceptical of a sustainable population of big cats, but as has already been mentioned, escapes happen. And as for making a difference to the deer population so as to affect the shooting, you'd need a fair few of them killing regularly to do that. But one off escapes would take prey regularly enough to live without you even noticing deer were less abundant

 

Because big cats roaming around is just wholly unbelievable. I’m very much a see to believe person when it come to things like that. I don’t believe in god, as some books that spout a bunch of stories of miracles and the like aren’t believable to me. I don’t believe in big foot, loch ness monster or ghosts, as despite searches by myself and others there has been no evidence found. Except grainy faked photos. Not an attempt to goad him into posting his video, but I struggle to see how a trail cam video would identify a specific location unless there is some obvious landmark in the background. 

Just because someone normally trustworthy says something, doesn’t make it true. Doesn’t matter if 18 people on the internet say something is true. Unless there is good solid evidence, it’s not true. 

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When I was about 12/13 we was on the train from Norwich to Ipswich, now obviously I can't give an exact location but as we were passing through the fields what I at first thought was a black dog was running along the edge of a field towards the train tracks. Then when it was around 60/70 yards from the train it turn and ran across the field.

I can hand on heart say it was no dog. It had the gait, shape and tail of a cat. This all happened in a matter of a few seconds but I don't doubt for a minute what I saw. 

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1 hour ago, southeastpete said:

Because big cats roaming around is just wholly unbelievable. I’m very much a see to believe person when it come to things like that. I don’t believe in god, as some books that spout a bunch of stories of miracles and the like aren’t believable to me. I don’t believe in big foot, loch ness monster or ghosts, as despite searches by myself and others there has been no evidence found. Except grainy faked photos. Not an attempt to goad him into posting his video, but I struggle to see how a trail cam video would identify a specific location unless there is some obvious landmark in the background. 

Just because someone normally trustworthy says something, doesn’t make it true. Doesn’t matter if 18 people on the internet say something is true. Unless there is good solid evidence, it’s not true. 

Illogical. All the lack of evidence shows is that there's not solid evidence yet, it doesn't prove its falseness; there have been too many scientific discoveries where initially there wasn't any evidence, but someone believed and kept going until they'd proved it to make that unsustainable.  And there is plenty of evidence for escapes - they get publicised in mainstream news from reputable zoos on an ad hoc basis from time to time. You don't doubt those, so why not escapes from less reputable places, kept illegally or in less than secure facilities? What your argument is boiling down to is some escapes are genuine, some are not, but without any explanation as to why you accept some but not others. The more shady the legality and security of an animal, the less likely it is that it'd get reported if it got out.

excuse the pun...but these things get out! Someone who knows where TT lives, maybe knows his permissions, they let slip to someone, who lets slip to someone else and so it snowballs. Even if they don't know the exact place or even permission, you've then got people roaming the woods on land where they're not supposed to be. 

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1 hour ago, Dougy said:

How long do they live for ??? 

 

 

 

Just wondering why nobody has ever seen a dead one. 

It depends on the animal. Pumas (cougars; Puma concolor) around ten years, leopards (Panthera Pardus) a little more - 15 ish. So you're going to have to have a sustained and expanding population of males and females crossing paths regularly enough to breed. You're looking at a breeding span of less than that for each animal, particularly in females, further reducing the odds of a population. Also all the usual rigmarole that goes with big cat courtship is absent. People aren't hearing weird growling/coughing in the wilds (outside of those SPECIAL carparks), or seeing scratch marks on trees at particular times of year. For some reason, if there's a breeding population here, then they seem to have come over all British and reserved when it comes to courtship! . 

The other thing that troubles me is there's little consistency in the type of animal seen to give a realistic chance of a population beyond individual escapees. Black leopards (black panthers, but really they're just goth-leopards, Panthera Pardus) crop up from time to time, but even though recessive genes for melanism breed true, you still need enough black animals to cross paths in the same area. Other than those, there's a real smorgasbord of descriptions, so either there are a shed load of these things gallivanting around...or they're misidentified animals where the light/alcohol has played tricks on the viewer - or they are escapes. Both of which are plausible - and certainly more plausible than sustained populations dating back the the 1976 DWAA. 

Edited by chrisjpainter
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In Hertfordshire in the late 70s and early 80s we shooters were aware they were there and that the farmers and gamekeepers were in close liason with the Ministry to get them mopped up as quickly as possible.

Frankly, I'm amazed it is a story that anybody would doubt, because at the time it was fact. 

Could they hang on for 40 years? I don't know

I know that where my SIL lives on Bodmin there were a couple of times when their dogs went into an absolute frenzy but nothing was ever seen. However, attacks on sheep are a matter of record up on the moor. Its also a fact that a lot of the farmers carry rifles.

go figure

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10 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

It depends on the animal. Pumas (cougars; Puma concolor) around ten years, leopards (Panthera Pardus) a little more - 15 ish. So you're going to have to have a sustained and expanding population of males and females regularly crossing paths regularly enough to breed. You're looking at a breeding span of less than that for each animal, particularly in females, further reducing the odds of a population. 

The other thing that troubles me is there's little consistency in the type of animal seen to give a realistic chance of a population beyond individual escapees. Black leopards (black panthers, but really they're just goth-leopards, Panthera Pardus) crop up from time to time, but even though recessive genes for melanism breed true, you still need enough black animals to cross paths in the same area. Other than those, there's a real smorgasbord of descriptions, so either there are a shed load of these things gallivanting around...or they're misidentified animals where the light/alcohol has played tricks on the viewer - or they are escapes. Both of which are plausible - and certainly more plausible than sustained populations dating back the the 1976 DWAA. 

I don't know, I am not pushing the agenda here but I remember reading that big cats coats go black(er) in low sunlight  

Edited by Vince Green
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I dont doubt they existed, less than 10 miles from my home i was born and brought up in they were held as pets in a village. And reported to be released, what i doubt is their survival 50 years later. 

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1 minute ago, Dougy said:

I dont doubt they existed, less than 10 miles from my home i was born and brought up in they were held as pets in a village. And reported to be released, what i doubt is their survival 50 years later. 

Much the same as me, but the first stage is to convince the disbelievers that they really DID exist at one time.

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20 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Much the same as me, but the first stage is to convince the disbelievers that they really DID exist at one time.

If anyone doubts that big cats EVER existed in the wild in the UK then they are frankly very stupid. I’m not sure anyone falls into that camp here. It is well documented that the late 70’s saw many “pets” turned loose.

The question is whether these animals were released in such numbers that the original releases were able to find a mate in the British countryside, breed, then for their offspring to grow, find a mate, breed, then for their offspring to grow and find a mate, breed and for their offspring to grow, find a mate and breed again.

While male panthers roam a territory of ~200 square miles females stick to a much smaller area of ~75 square miles. I would be surprised that population density would be high enough for effective breeding to take place over such a long period of time. If it was possible due to these cats roaming such long distances then I would equally expect the number of recorded sightings to be higher.

An interesting comparison is Florida. The Florida Panther is a native species, not surviving after having been released it has evolved with the landscape over thousands of years and is therefore far more capable of surviving. The state is significantly smaller than the size of the UK so any panthers in the wild there are far more likely to cross paths with each other facilitating breeding. Florida also has an average of 353 people per sq mile of land compared to 662 people per sq mile in the UK so they are far less likely to be disturbed. Even with this more hospitable environment Big Cat Rescue states:

“In 2017, the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission updated the population estimate to between 120 - 230 panthers still remaining in Florida, making this one of the rarest and endangered mammals in the world. Even at their best estimates, 230 panthers are not a sustainable population size. The Florida panther is currently listed as endangered.”
 

Four generations of big cats supposedly living happily in the UK and not one unequivocal video, photo or dead body has found its way into the press. I find that very hard to believe given the extent of CCTV, dashcams and smartphones even in the countryside.

For me these beasts certainly were turfed out across the UK fifty years back but the numbers just don’t stack up for me to allow any to be alive today.

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We had a couple of sightings about 25yrs ago in west Leicestershire, three separate sightings within a mile of each other by country folk who knew what they where looking at. Twice seen crossing the lane in clear daylight and then by someone tending his sheep and saw the same described animal cross an adjacent field.  |I also had a friend who was out lamping, before we had NV and his lamp picked up eyes in a hedge line. He straight away recognised the eyes of a cat with that very slowl blink they do. He then noticed a tanalised post adjacent to it and the eyes where wider apart than the thickness of the post. Whatever it vanished into the wood but he was convinced it was a very large cat. This friend probably knows more about the flora and forna in our countryside than most.  I know from talking to firends in the USA that cougar will cover huge distances.  Bobcats are more territorial and you couldn't mistake one for a domestic cat, I have seen a dozen or more some at close quarters.  I have an open mind on the subject.

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11 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

We had a couple of sightings about 25yrs ago in west Leicestershire, three separate sightings within a mile of each other by country folk who knew what they where looking at. Twice seen crossing the lane in clear daylight and then by someone tending his sheep and saw the same described animal cross an adjacent field.  |I also had a friend who was out lamping, before we had NV and his lamp picked up eyes in a hedge line. He straight away recognised the eyes of a cat with that very slowl blink they do. He then noticed a tanalised post adjacent to it and the eyes where wider apart than the thickness of the post. Whatever it vanished into the wood but he was convinced it was a very large cat. This friend probably knows more about the flora and forna in our countryside than most.  I know from talking to firends in the USA that cougar will cover huge distances.  Bobcats are more territorial and you couldn't mistake one for a domestic cat, I have seen a dozen or more some at close quarters.  I have an open mind on the subject.

The further back you go the more probable... 25 years is two lifespans end-to-end.

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4 hours ago, southeastpete said:

Because big cats roaming around is just wholly unbelievable. I’m very much a see to believe person when it come to things like that. I don’t believe in god, as some books that spout a bunch of stories of miracles and the like aren’t believable to me. I don’t believe in big foot, loch ness monster or ghosts, as despite searches by myself and others there has been no evidence found. Except grainy faked photos. Not an attempt to goad him into posting his video, but I struggle to see how a trail cam video would identify a specific location unless there is some obvious landmark in the background. 

Just because someone normally trustworthy says something, doesn’t make it true. Doesn’t matter if 18 people on the internet say something is true. Unless there is good solid evidence, it’s not true. 

I never believed it ever until I seen it 

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I live in western Canada but on the plains east of the Rocky MTS. Very open rolling country wit hardly a tree for miles. There has been a confirmed cougar population increase in the last ten years. 
      Even with all the open fields it is still rare to see one. Farmers are now allowed to shoot them and it does happen.

      But if all the cougar sightings and tracks found were true we would have a cougar on every door step with the pussy cats. A huge amount of B.S. surrounds these cats so your cougars are likely mostly imaginary.

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I've never seen one but my best mate whilst out walking his lurchers on afternoon near Kenilworth saw one cross a lane and disappear into a spinney. His dogs wouldn't go into the wood and they aren't soft. He's a reputable source.

The hunt i whipped into have 4 different people in 4 different locations who all saw something within minutes of each other, which they describe as a large black cat, run a stone wall and along a valley out the back of Llansantffraid a few years back all reputable, reliable people.

And I was out lamping one night behind the army camp at nesscliff with the wife and high up in an oak tree there was a very significant and very unsettling growling noise going on. It wasn't a hollow tree and it definitely wasn't fox or badger sounding. I didn't have a thermal and the tree was heavy in leaf but whatever was up there growling made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end! 

Whether they're wild populations or whether they're escapees from dodgy zoos and illegal wildlife trade i don't know but I think there's probably something out there in some shape or form whether it's a true big cat or if its some sort of hybridised feral moggy on steroids I don't know. 

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Few yrs back i was like any other guy who heard these stories of big cats, id laugh at anyone saying they seen one, i was always a sceptic  as none had ever been found dead or hit by a car like most animals today or as stated caught on trail cams.

This was until one night while out foxing and one jumped out in front of me while driving along a country lane, i wasn't going fast as it was narrow and bendy but their it was in my head lights, we all know the difference if seen and this was no mistaking of what it was.

Now this was a few yrs ago near Ruthin in wales and even to this day i question myself about that night, but i was also with a good mate so both of us seen it so I'm 100% sure it wasn't me going crazy and he agrees it was 100% a large dark coloured cat.

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1 hour ago, Benthejockey said:

 

Whether they're wild populations or whether they're escapees from dodgy zoos and illegal wildlife trade i don't know but I think there's probably something out there in some shape or form whether it's a true big cat or if its some sort of hybridised feral moggy on steroids I don't know. 

I caught a large black cat in the fox trap a few months ago!

It was very angry and was snarling/growling. It was a moggy but a big one! I was thinking, at the time, if it was in the middle of a field with nothing around it to compare its size to, that it could have been confused for something much larger.

I stood well behind the trap when i released it!

 

Edited by silver pigeon69
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96/97’ whilst teaching a guy to fly and carrying out Circuit training, out at Shipdham Airfield in Norfolk.

Glanced down ( ok, Circuit bashing isn’t the most stimulating of exercises and was watching the scenery a lot more than normal- sorry Mr Stone, it wasn’t your Company or flying)

Slinking along a hedgerow was the proverbial large black cat, thought at first it was a labby. But no, as it’s deportment was different.

By the time I mentioned it to the Student, the thing had moved on - couldn't expect the student to drop out the circuit ( he was paying after all) and go searching around.

Anyway, around that time, there were reported sightings, if I remember correctly?

 

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Many years ago, I was laughed at by my friends after I'd said I'd seen a wild boar.

Apparently there weren't any in the UK.

Are there any big cats roaming the countryside? I would say yes, without doubt.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

New question:
Would people want them to exist as a small but stable population?

I would as long as it wasn't in my back garden doing their business in the borders - have enough of an issue with the local cats!!!

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