Dead-Eyed Duck Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 I have an old percussion live pigeon gun. It is a Benjamin Hall single barrel with no ramrod underneath the barrel. Does anyone have any idea as to the rules that used to apply? I am told that a live pigeon was held underneath a hat, and the hat was in the centre of a circle many yards in diameter. Once the pigeon was released by pulling a string attached to the hat the pigeon had to be killed within the circle. If it flapped outside of the circle the shooter was deemed to have failed. There was a huge amount of betting that took place between the contestants. I believe my gun is a 6.5 bore - does anyone know the maximum bore size that could be used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 there was a live pigeon shootoing topic about 4-5 years ago ...very interesting too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 It still goes on in parts of America. There's bound to be some videos to watch online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Goes on in a few European countries big money bet on it however I’m not sure on the historic rules and bore size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 What ZZ / Helice is all based upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead-Eyed Duck Posted October 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 What I am really interested in is does anyone know the size of the circle that used to apply in live pigeon shooting in the UK using percussion shotguns. Also I have been told that the bore size gradually increased to ensure a clean kill, but what was this eventually regulated to? Live pigeon guns did not have the ramrod fixed to the gun to reduce the weight of the gun, but this obviously had a trade off against the amount of felt recoil. What distance was the shooter from the pigeon/circle? Any information would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Its my understanding that this is where the term "Pull" comes from. They pulled the string connected to the top hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Well here’s a modern arena and the distance from the shooter to the box(hat) white fence is the boundary 40 yards I think outside of the fence you loose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNKS Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Bet they got through a lot of hats!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 On 31/10/2020 at 08:32, Centrepin said: Its my understanding that this is where the term "Pull" comes from. They pulled the string connected to the top hat. My dad told me they used to put the pigeon under a bucket with a rope on it when he was a teenager in the 30's 🤔🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 23 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said: My dad told me they used to put the pigeon under a bucket with a rope on it when he was a teenager in the 30's 🤔🤔 Indeed, but the classier outfits used top hats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Indeed, but the classier outfits used top hats! Ah I see, 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 The pigeon were housed latterly in collapsible cages called "traps", hence clay trap, rather than hats which harks back to the earliest days of live pigeon shooting. The whole reason for the contest was to provide a focus for betting at a time when literal fortunes changed hands at such meetings. Originally based around hats and other such temporary contrivances and with almost no rules, it quickly evolved into a strictly codified and disciplined sport. At its outset there were no restrictions on bore sizes or shot loads but as it progressed guns were standardised or at the very least, shot in classes separated by bore and load and this was further stratified with the adventof the breech loading gun. Having said that, since gambling was its raison detre you might well witness a wager much between two gentlemen, one using a 20 bore, and the other a 4. Not quite sure how you`d figure out the odds on that one. It was carried out all over the country, not just at the handful of well known London venues attended by the rich and famous. Sparrows and starlings were often substituted for pigeons and some people made a good living from trapping or netting the birds used in shooting matches. Some open matches would see thousands of birds shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted November 18, 2020 Report Share Posted November 18, 2020 Hi if the photos print out it may give you an idea how your gun was used. It was most probably lost in a bet. Big wagers were involved, the trapper would ***** the eye of a bird for a price. A lot of men lost everything they had all for shooting a pigeon . Try explaining that when you got home, or ex home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) Great historical topic, good reading about the origins of clay shooting. Much of the rules and terminology is still in use today. Also the origins of fitasc gun readiness position. Edited November 19, 2020 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipper Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 I have a mate who shot a lot of trap in Portugal.He shot some live pigeon .He told me it payed for his holiday That was in the 70s.Its still going on today several top clay shots have been seen taking part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 Before live pigeon became illegal in 1924 pigeon shooting from traps at the latter end was shot for big money at the top clubs And guns were made by the top gun makers they were 12 bore sxs hammer and hammerless full choke both barrels and very straight in sighting to make them shoot high . In the early days guns were muzzle loaders and were made in bore sizes from 4 to 12 to avoid cheating all muzzle loaders were loaded from a table and each gun using the dipper and bowls provided of both powder and shot this was under the watchful eye of a referee This same charge was for each gun no matter on the bore size all birds had to be shot within a 60 yard ring fence this did vary at some clubs Feltwad Trap pigeon guns from 4 to 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 A friend and fellow syndicate member has a live pigeon gun in 16 bore, and very nice it is too; he uses it for driven days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Feltwad said: Before live pigeon became illegal in 1924 pigeon shooting from traps at the latter end was shot for big money at the top clubs And guns were made by the top gun makers they were 12 bore sxs hammer and hammerless full choke both barrels and very straight in sighting to make them shoot high . In the early days guns were muzzle loaders and were made in bore sizes from 4 to 12 to avoid cheating all muzzle loaders were loaded from a table and each gun using the dipper and bowls provided of both powder and shot this was under the watchful eye of a referee This same charge was for each gun no matter on the bore size all birds had to be shot within a 60 yard ring fence this did vary at some clubs Feltwad Trap pigeon guns from 4 to 12 Great stuff, If using the same charge for all bores, did they use a 4 bore to increase the diameter of the pattern ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 Live pigeon shooting was big in USA captain Bogardus was one of the best shooters. He shot live birds from a buggy with the horse at full trot, his competitors had their feet firmly on the ground and he won. Like Annie Oakley he shot game for a living. When glass ball shooting came in they would time shoot, he won by shooting 5,000 balls in 337 minutes and hit 97% .thats a lot of power and smoke and headache. He owned part of the Cody Wild West show , it came to this country (but not Liverpool the council wouldn’t have it). Thousands of pigeons must have been shot over the years. As said live shooting still goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 Using the same charge in a 4 bore to a 12 would increase the diameter of the pattern, but the 4 bore would have to take his shot a lot quicker than a 12 which would be able to kill at a greater distance with a better pattern if a bird is only wounded it may be able to fly beyond the 60 yard fence and be a lost bird so a quick shot with the big bore was essential The traps were collapse ones when the string was pulled also used was a sparrow release trap this was mainly used by the locals and for practice but this type of trap shooting was in use before live pigeon shooting was thought off Plumstead Marshes was one off the first .Images enclosed Feltwad Score Board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted November 19, 2020 Report Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) Just as an aside, a lot of the breech loading live pigeon guns were not fitted with a safety catch. It was deemed to NOT be required. Today people moan if they do not have an auto safe on a gun Edited November 19, 2020 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted November 20, 2020 Report Share Posted November 20, 2020 A great collection of guns. Yes auto safety screw in chokes choice of cartridges (smokeless) eye and ear protection. I wonder what the old competitors would have thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyRich Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 Fantastic topic. Always wondered where it all started 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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