EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, scarecrow243 said:

we need to tell the eu they no longer tell us what to do so take a hike

Hopefully this may come to pass as one of the things Mark Avery does not like about the Brexit trade deal is that we will align in principle with the EU environmental protection agenda. But reserve the rights not to do so, if in doing so it puts our businesses or economy at a competitive disadvantage.

 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

we need to tell the eu they no longer tell us what to do so take a hike

Not happening anytime soon. We may be a sovereign nation but we also have a new trade deal. 

2 hours ago, Dave-G said:

might I be wrong to think if lead is banned for pest control - poison is more likely to be used with much less humane results?

But it's contained and not spread throughout the countryside, and in the food chain.

2 hours ago, clangerman said:

let’s not make the mistake of a eu scapegoat here this ban rubbish has been championed by basc and co ignoring the mountain of members opinion posted on here if lead was a genuine concern the far bigger sources of lead contamination would be dealt with first so this ban rubbish is a con job from start to finish by ALL those behind it 

Like fuel? Like paint? Like food cans? Like water pipes? 

[Ultrastu]

So the issue for airguns is .

So far all non lead alternatives  for pellets and slugs are useless beyond 20 yds or so .For energy retention. Energy dissapation and accuracy (more subjective ) 

This means with out lead shooting airguns will be pointless for hunting and field target .only indoor 10 yd shooting would be fine (but then you can use lead for that anyway under the new rules ) 

This would effectively be a total ban on airguns via the back door .

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

So the issue for airguns is .

So far all non lead alternatives  for pellets and slugs are useless beyond 20 yds or so .For energy retention. Energy dissapation and accuracy (more subjective ) 

This means with out lead shooting airguns will be pointless for hunting and field target .only indoor 10 yd shooting would be fine (but then you can use lead for that anyway under the new rules ) 

This would effectively be a total ban on airguns via the back door .

Bizmuth and tungsten? 

H & N says their GREEN pellets (FTT and Baracuda ) are made of tin. Further research disclosed that those who had shot these products found them to be more accurate than most lead free pellets, and in the right gun as accurate as lead counterparts.

Their alloy content is minimal, so I looked up the Brinell hardness of Tin and compared it to lead. Brinell numbers indicate tin is slightly harder than lead, but tin/lead alloys (solder) are not much harder than pure lead.

Interesting article. https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/look-future-lead-free-pellets/

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

 

This would effectively be a total ban on airguns via the back door .

Like I’ve said; you don’t have to ban our guns to stop us shooting. Chip, chip, chip. 

[Ultrastu]

A lead ban for airgun pellets would be the biggest single threat the airgun shooting industry has seen in the UK. 

Most pellets aremade in the eu .

Jsb h+n rws  .

Others crosman (America)

qys  - China  , Are not.

There are others but if they could make great pellets they would have done so already  

 

 

There are 2 solutions in my mind .

A - sell my guns and give up 

B - buy loads of pellets  before they aren't  on sale any more .

The obvious  way to enforce a lead ban is to stop the sale of lead ammo in shops .when peoples stocks are depleted  thats it gone .much easier than trying to check every shooters gun .shops are much easier to police and manufacturers  to push around .

Edited February 5, 2021 by Ultrastu

[Ultrastu]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

Bizmuth and tungsten? 

H & N says their GREEN pellets (FTT and Baracuda ) are made of tin. Further research disclosed that those who had shot these products found them to be more accurate than most lead free pellets, and in the right gun as accurate as lead counterparts.

Their alloy content is minimal, so I looked up the Brinell hardness of Tin and compared it to lead. Brinell numbers indicate tin is slightly harder than lead, but tin/lead alloys (solder) are not much harder than pure lead.

Interesting article. https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/look-future-lead-free-pellets/

Lead free pellets so far are 5 x more expensive and give around 35 - 50 % of the performance of lead .

Not a great incentive to be honest .

[Rob85]

4 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Lead free pellets so far are 5 x more expensive and give around 35 - 50 % of the performance of lead .

Not a great incentive to be honest .

For all the airgunners out there, check this out.... yes the camerawork is a bit kack but it does illustrate how poor these pellets are. Never mind killing energy, check out the lack of accuracy and the fact these pellets cannot even fit in the magazine of the rifle.

[kenholland]

got the hump , because they cannot dictate to us , or can they,?.

[johnphilip]

Meanwhile  thousands  of tons of this so called " green waste " has been  ploughed  into fields , full of strips of copper and plastic waste plus may other none degradable materials . That the poor farmer was not aware of when he was given  it . Stuff that animals will ingest . And also get into the food chain..

[old'un]

20 hours ago, Scully said:

Like I’ve said; you don’t have to ban our guns to stop us shooting. Chip, chip, chip. 

I fear you are correct.

 

Using the green environmental bandwagon they will push it on all media platforms, tell the general public that lead in the environment is bad for them and their children's future and we have not got a chance of winning the argument, as you say, slowly chip, chip, chip.

[motty]

On 05/02/2021 at 01:34, Jim Neal said:

It's simple.  Give us the non-lead alternative, which works.  Then there's no argument.

But they can't.  Hence the argument goes on...

 

It is called steel.

On 05/02/2021 at 11:44, steve s×s said:

I agree to a degree but as said many many times this argument is nothing to do with Lead 🙈

May I ask why?

If not lead, then what is "it" to do with?

On 05/02/2021 at 12:54, clangerman said:

let’s not make the mistake of a eu scapegoat here this ban rubbish has been championed by basc and co ignoring the mountain of members opinion posted on here if lead was a genuine concern the far bigger sources of lead contamination would be dealt with first so this ban rubbish is a con job from start to finish by ALL those behind it 

You are so off the mark, here.

[motty]

On 05/02/2021 at 13:13, scarecrow243 said:

BASC and the others should be fighting this lead ban for all shooting non lead is ****   we don't  shoot as much lead as the military etc yet one paragraph states Military and other non-civilian uses of lead ammunition – such as by police, security and customs forces – are not included in the scope of the investigation. Indoor uses of lead ammunition are also excluded 

I take it you haven't used much steel, then? 

[scarecrow243]

Hi Motty i don't  like it too many people think they can take very high birds with it  a few years ago we mett two guys who said their special steel catridges can take geese down from 90 yards up 

[strimmer_13]

Also show me 1 non lead based ammunition that works in airguns or rf. It's not only shotguns that's getting ****ed over 

[sabel25]

On 05/02/2021 at 10:36, lakeside1000 said:

Yes please, especially that bunch of sprouts in Brussels, we shoot on the marshes  on the Norfolk coast and in the main use steel shot for everything, in winter we get thousands of swans grazing along with many thousands of pinks, so lead is a no-no , even shooting pigeons on this land where the shot falls in open grazing areas where it can be picked up by these birds its better to go with steel. As for the air rifle , where do we get an alternative to the lead at a price we can afford, I dont use it very often but still cant see the harm a single pellet would cause.

Years ago they hit the fishermen with a lead shot ban on all fresh water fishing which caused many problems as most of the alternatives at the time were absolute rubbish, things thankfully have changed and these days some decent alternatives are readily available, so if a lead ban is imposed on the shooting it may take some time before a good alternative is available at a fair price.

This is all very well BUT all steel cartridge have plastic wad cups Plastic is the bigger killer. Bismuth have fibre wads But far too expensive

We may be out the EU now but if they get this passed Will they not stop the manufacture of lead shot in Italy or Spain etc?

George at Just Cartridges may need to work over time haha

[Conor O'Gorman]

Last week, EU regulations were published that are scheduled to ban lead shot in and around wetlands from February 2023 onwards.

The regulations are unworkable and unenforceable and will make it illegal to use or carry lead shot within 100m of any wetland, whose broad definition will encompass everything from a puddle to a peatland.

BASC worked closely with the Federation of European Hunting Associations (FACE) and colleagues across Europe to try to ensure that the European Commission’s proposals would be focused on reducing the risks of wetland birds ingesting lead shot.

Most EU member states already have national laws in place restricting the use of lead shot in wetlands except for Poland, Ireland, Romania, Slovenia and Malta. The proposals were in effect using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, albeit the 20-year intransigence in some countries against any form of legislation since the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) has certainly not helped matters.

Whilst several risible proposals were removed during the drafting process the final regulations are not fit for purpose, only 52% of MEPs supported them, and they remain open to legal challenge before they take effect in 2023.

It has taken us more than 20 years to adapt to the existing lead shot rules in the UK and if the new EU regulations were made law here in less than two years’ time it would be incredibly damaging to the progress made thus far. That is because the EU regulations would effectively ban the use and possession of lead shot across the majority of land due to the broad definition of wetland being used and the 100m buffer zone.

The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland.

However, there is a risk that Northern Ireland will be forced to adopt the new laws because under the terms of the Brexit deal NI must continue to implement new EU regulations on chemicals and this includes lead. Given how wet the climate is in NI the broad definition of wetland would result in a lead shot ban across most of the country.

BASC is working with FACE to stop this happening and we have highlighted the issue with the NI Environment Minister.

[wymberley]

"The EU regulations were published a month after Brexit which means they will not take effect in England, Wales or Scotland."

Has this changed since Thursday evening or was it simply not considered to be worth mentioning?

[Rewulf]

14 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

However, there is a risk that Northern Ireland will be forced to adopt the new laws because under the terms of the Brexit deal NI must continue to implement new EU regulations on chemicals and this includes lead. Given how wet the climate is in NI the broad definition of wetland would result in a lead shot ban across most of the country.

BASC is working with FACE to stop this happening and we have highlighted the issue with the NI Environment Minister.

What are you talking about ?
Youve already signed up for banning lead shot for hunting by 2025 anyway 

[London Best]

Some of you are confused between the BASC voluntary ban proposals and what the EU are bringing in which BASC have been opposing. Two different things.

[clangerman]

there’s no confusion the pot is calling the kettle black BOTH are trying to ban the best tool for the job 

[Rewulf]

42 minutes ago, London Best said:

Some of you are confused between the BASC voluntary ban proposals and what the EU are bringing in which BASC have been opposing. Two different things.

Yes , with the exact same outcome, making shooting the domain of the elite only.

Paupers with guns ? We cant have that can we ?

[Nuke]

How hard would it be to increase the pressure of the air rifle to push the pellet to the needed levels?

/Markus 

[old'un]

8 minutes ago, Nuke said:

How hard would it be to increase the pressure of the air rifle to push the pellet to the needed levels?

/Markus 

I don't think increasing the pressure would be a problem but possibly stability would be.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

What are you talking about ?
Youve already signed up for banning lead shot for hunting by 2025 anyway 

Mmmm, I had to read that bit twice too, just to make sure there was only two years difference! 🤔

As an aside, if this were to become legislation in Scotland, it would spell the end of shooting clays with lead for Westlands shooting ground, and one or two others I can think of.