Tonka54 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Sorry if this subject has been threaded elsewhere in the forum. I work for a company that supplies clay pigeons to a lot of the shooting schools and gun clubs within the UK, subject to speaking with quite a few of their management members it appears that the issue of lead free shot will primarily affect the game shooting fraternity. However, most agree that the clay shooting community will have about one further season of using lead shot before having to consider the move to steel or a much more expensive alternative. It further appears that most modern guns will already be proofed for steel, in this case the only considerations will be the added expense of steel shot and the period of time it takes to get used to the different characteristics, for some, it will also involve re-choking, but by and large that will be about it. For those of us with older shotguns the problem is not so simple, opinions differ quite a lot, ie: some say all that is necessary is steel proof chokes, and providing your barrels are strong enough to meet the minimum requirements that's it, the theory behind this is the fact that the steel shot is in a plastic cup, the shot remains in the cup until it leaves the end of the barrels at which point the cup behaves like normal wadding and separates. in this case the shot never comes into contact with the inner barrel surfaces, therefore no damage???. Others believe that even the use of steel proof chokes no greater than half could still result in barrel "ring bulge" due to the bottleneck affect caused by the chokes restriction. I may have got the wrong information, or completely got hold of the wrong end of the stick, what do other members think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 It's been done and re-done on PW and elsewhere such as SD. However for many now that "English Sporting" is for many the majority of what they shoot at clays there may be an additional metal to consider. For the aim is to break the clay. Broken is broken. Unlike with live quarry where a mere strike on it isn't enough as power and penetration are required to give a clean, quick, humane kill. The answer may be a look again at tin shot? This was briefly one of the metals that was tried as a non-lead substitute for wildfowl. It didn't really cut the mustard but on clays? Maybe it would work? And certainly in my forty years of shooting I've seen, for clays under CPSA, the cartridge load be lightened from 1 1/8 ounce to 1 ounce and it may be that it is lightened more if steel is to be the unwelcome future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTaylor91 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 My local ground doesn’t allow steel due to the risk of ricochet. I wonder if they will change that stance if lead is banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said: My local ground doesn’t allow steel due to the risk of ricochet. I wonder if they will change that stance if lead is banned. We were chatting earlier and I can't see many shooters buying bismuth to shoot at clays! Some mighty big changes coming along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 The other aspect is for skeet shooting how open do you bore a gun for it to throw a skeet pattern with steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 I thought we had to have eco wads as well as non lead shot . The eley ones that were introduced last year don't work .as the wad breaks down inside the unfired cartridge within 3 months of manufacture . So it's back to the drawing board for eley . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNKS Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Not so the BIOAMMO wads. I have been shooting them at clays for months now. left a couple of wads and cases on my lawn and they have been there for at least two months with no indication of breaking up. I believe the manufacturers say 18 months out in the open for break up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 14 minutes ago, DUNKS said: Not so the BIOAMMO wads. I have been shooting them at clays for months now. left a couple of wads and cases on my lawn and they have been there for at least two months with no indication of breaking up. I believe the manufacturers say 18 months out in the open for break up. Absolutely no good what so ever for livestock farmers. Watch The BIG GREEN ShotgunCartridge Test on YouTube, they're damn right dangerous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 (edited) Tin shot will be very expensive Tin is about 27,000 US dollars a tonne, Lead is about 1950 US dollars a tonne. as for bioammo not decomposing that is possibly due to them being made from what the packaging people call bioplastic which decomposes when buried in landfill dumps not when in the open lying on top of soil. Edited April 3, 2021 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, matone said: There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!! Thanks, puts it all in perspective from a leading cartridge manufacture. Season Two Episode Ten - The Steel Shot Episode - life afer lead https://www.gunsonpegs.com/articles/shooting-talk/the-guns-on-pegs-podcast?utm_source=GameCard31stMarch&utm_medium=email Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rabbit Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 2 hours ago, matone said: There was recently a most interesting podcast on the GunsonPegs site where they talked to a chap from Gamebore about this very subject.More than worth listening to for anyone interested in finding out the TRUE situation that we have been put in by our supposed defenders!!!!! What he had to say can't be argued with. If a multi national like coca cola can't crack the problem then what chance does a niche company like Gamebore have? Coca cola will certainly have tried as it would be a huge selling point for them. The future has to be steel/plas if the industry has any chance of survival. Once a total ban is in, claygrounds that are fibre will have to allow plastic and charge more or organise wad picking days. No one at grass roots will pay £360 a thou for degradable alternatives. WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTaylor91 Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: We were chatting earlier and I can't see many shooters buying bismuth to shoot at clays! Some mighty big changes coming along. Not a chance I would use bismuth to shoot clays. I suspect the grounds that said steel was too dangerous will all of a sudden be okay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 1 minute ago, JTaylor91 said: Not a chance I would use bismuth to shoot clays. I suspect the grounds that said steel was too dangerous will all of a sudden be okay with it. Yes or go out of business, so much for a voluntary ban! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 3, 2021 Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 Wondering what the forestry commission plan to use for pest control and deer management they don’t like steel in the timber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka54 Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 I have a feeling that Tungsten super shot (TSS) is the current favourite being considered, that won't be a cheap alternative either. Best we can hope for is a breakthrough before we run out of time and steel becomes mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 I don't know a ground that currently doesn't allow steel, but obviously I don't know all grounds. Lead, buy it cheap, pile it high, stock up. Worry about it in 2 - 3 years when it's all worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) "I thought we had to have eco wads as well as non lead shot ." "The eley ones that were introduced last year don't work .as the wad breaks down inside the unfired cartridge within 3 months of manufacture ." I have been using Eley pro ecowads (with steel shot) for about 18 months. No probs whatsoever. Just opened some of my original batch to have a look - perfect. Edited April 4, 2021 by stagboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, stagboy said: I have been using Eley pro ecowads (with steel shot) for about 18 months. No probs whatsoever. Just opened some of my original batch to have a look - perfect. All very good until it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243deer Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 17 hours ago, Old farrier said: Wondering what the forestry commission plan to use for pest control and deer management they don’t like steel in the timber Forestry England have been using non-toxic for at least 5 years to my knowledge. I specifically asked a ranger in private if he had experiended any issues with copper and he said no problems at all. Bear in mind that anyone shooting 200+ deer per year will not want runners and the grief of retrieval far away from where they shoot. The rangers usually use .308s. FE do not currently control grey squirrels at all, a disgrace really, so that ammunition question does not arise. There are, however, very many syndicate game shoots on Forestry England controlled land. The question of whether steel would be damaging for their machines is an interesting one as a lot of wood now goes for pulp and use in power generation If I have to pay say £2.50 a shot to shoot a deer with copper rather than £1.25 with lead, that is still really cheap meat. I normally use around 100 lead rounds and 20 copper a year practising. Currently I shoot all meat for my consumption with lead, as I butcher away from bruised meat I really do not see that as a problem for game dealers, supermarkets or the general public as it does not affect them in any way. Happy to use a copper bullet if shooting larger deer that go into the public food chain. Absolutely no reason in my view why lead needs to be banned for any form of practice or target shooting, that includes clays, plinking with air rifles or any other form of target shooting. I also cannot see our armed forces wanting ammunition at twice the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamch Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 21 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: Tin shot will be very expensive Tin is about 27,000 US dollars a tonne, Lead is about 1950 US dollars a tonne. as for bioammo not decomposing that is possibly due to them being made from what the packaging people call bioplastic which decomposes when buried in landfill dumps not when in the open lying on top of soil. Hull did tin shells years ago and they jusy bounced of ducks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 4, 2021 Report Share Posted April 4, 2021 23 minutes ago, 243deer said: Forestry England have been using non-toxic for at least 5 years to my knowledge. I specifically asked a ranger in private if he had experiended any issues with copper and he said no problems at all. Bear in mind that anyone shooting 200+ deer per year will not want runners and the grief of retrieval far away from where they shoot. The rangers usually use .308s. FE do not currently control grey squirrels at all, a disgrace really, so that ammunition question does not arise. There are, however, very many syndicate game shoots on Forestry England controlled land. The question of whether steel would be damaging for their machines is an interesting one as a lot of wood now goes for pulp and use in power generation If I have to pay say £2.50 a shot to shoot a deer with copper rather than £1.25 with lead, that is still really cheap meat. I normally use around 100 lead rounds and 20 copper a year practising. Currently I shoot all meat for my consumption with lead, as I butcher away from bruised meat I really do not see that as a problem for game dealers, supermarkets or the general public as it does not affect them in any way. Happy to use a copper bullet if shooting larger deer that go into the public food chain. Absolutely no reason in my view why lead needs to be banned for any form of practice or target shooting, that includes clays, plinking with air rifles or any other form of target shooting. I also cannot see our armed forces wanting ammunition at twice the price. Thank you for your comprehensive reply the forestry commission land that forms part of the syndicated shoot local to me have requested no steel shot maybe that’s going to change in the future 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Neal Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 The problem with steel and trees is when the timber is sold for joinery. If you embed steel into a tree trunk, when the iron rusts the capillary action will carry the rust stain a long way up and down the trunk, thus causing an imperfection and getting the timber rejected. That's the explanation I heard from the forester on the estate we shoot on, when handing out a polite bol***king to the guy who hammered peg numbers into the trees with nails one year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTaylor91 Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 On 04/04/2021 at 08:44, Centrepin said: I don't know a ground that currently doesn't allow steel, but obviously I don't know all grounds. Lead, buy it cheap, pile it high, stock up. Worry about it in 2 - 3 years when it's all worked out. Park lodge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, JTaylor91 said: Park lodge Oops, I didn't know that and used to shoot Park Lodge regularly before lockdown 1. Not been since they introduced booking times, I'm retired and said I'd never work to a clock again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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