BASC Lead Ammunition Update about DEFRA Consultation on Lead Ammunition.

[Salopian]

Today I have received and read an update by Conor O'Gorman and I am very pleased to have read his comments.

Now all it needs is for us shooters and members of BASC to make sensible representations to Conor & BASC for them to make our views known to the powers that be .

Interestingly I note that Military and NONE Civilian lead ammunition, also indoor shooting facilities  are  exempt from restriction and scrutiny?

Could in reality this be an attempt by the authorities to restrict the use of firearms in the public sector?

I think now is the time to make sensible representation to DEFRA and all the other authorities with an interest in banning the use of Lead that actually they are wasting a lot of time and money barking up the wrong tree . 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Salopian

[bruno22rf]

Do they not already know the vast majority of shooters feelings on this matter, where have they been these last 2 years?

[wymberley]

The answer lies in China and how much profit is made on soft iron shot production set against pollution levels - could it be one of the products to go in their possible ferrous output reduction?

[udderlyoffroad]

15 hours ago, Salopian said:

Today I have received and read an update by Conor O'Gorman and I am very pleased to have read his comments.

Was this to you personally or a general communication?  If the former, are you able to share, if the latter please can you provide a link?

 

15 hours ago, Salopian said:

Interestingly I note that Military and NONE Civilian lead ammunition, also indoor shooting facilities  are  exempt from restriction and scrutiny?

What on earth is "NONE Civilian"?  Non-civilian would be military? 

If you mean police, they are civilians, and their armed response teams generally train at closed ranges.  I think pointing out that police will be able to continue to use lead against humans in, let's face it, invariably desperate circumstances, will be at best unhelpful, and at worst a distraction.

 

15 hours ago, Salopian said:

Could in reality this be an attempt by the authorities to restrict the use of firearms in the public sector?

I would rather we didn't arm civil servants.

 

15 hours ago, Salopian said:

I think now is the time to make sensible representation to DEFRA and all the other authorities with an interest in banning the use of Lead

So which issue are you trying to address, the BASC voluntary transition away from lead or the DEFRA consultation on banning lead?

If the former, they know how popular it was from their membership, but what's done is done.  Let's not rehash that, again.

If the latter, we need to shout and scream from the roof tops that, where it matters, we banned lead (over wetlands) 20+ years ago!

 

[Pushandpull]

BASC send a regular news e-mail if you request it (may be via the members' area on their site ?)

I believe they also use other platforms but I don't know this.

[Windswept]

Link to the blog. https://basc.org.uk/two-year-lead-ammunition-review-the-call-for-evidence/

Link to BASCs weekly newsletter subscription:  https://basc.org.uk/basc-live/

[McSpredder]

Conor has rightly pointed out that "Anyone attempting to use the questions in the survey form to submit opinions ‘for or against’ lead ammunition will soon find that this is a futile effort."

There is no obvious place in the survey form for comment on the information (or mis-information) circulated in relation to human health in UK.   Ministers and their advisers are unlikely to have studied all the published documents, but they should perhaps be made aware of the following points.

1. In the papers presented at the 2015 Oxford Lead Symposium and the 57 more recent documents listed by the Lead Ammunition Group as being related to human health, there is no record of any person in UK having been harmed by eating game meat.  
    
2. There are no estimate of how many people in UK are likely to be harmed by eating game, and mathematical models only predict numbers for whom “the possibility of an effect cannot be excluded”.  
    
3. There are no reports comparing predictions with actual data from NHS health records (physical and mental health), the official Lead Exposure in Children Surveillance System, SATS test results (intellectual development of children), or death certificates (lifespan and cause of death).   
    
4. There are no reports of any attempt to measure blood-lead concentration in UK residents who are known to eat a lot of game meat.
    
5. Predictions relating to UK gamebird meat were based entirely on information about Greenland sea ducks that are not quarry species in this country.   Those results were highly variable, and the numbers analysed were so small that scientists could only say the average lead concentration in thick-billed murre was likely to be somewhere between 0.155 and 1.937 parts per million (a twelve-fold range).  
    
6. Models assume that the gamebird meat portion eaten by an adult at each meal will be twice the size formerly reported by the UK Food Standards Agency, thereby doubling the predicted intake of lead.
    
7. Risks to very young children may have been grossly over-estimated, because toddlers' meat portions assumed in the models are nearly four times as large as those published by health professionals.  
    
8. Modellers devised their own theoretical method to predict total energy expenditure by UK children, calculated that a 2.5 year old child should need half as much energy as an adult, and hence decided the toddler’s game meat portion would be half that of an adult.   They failed to acknowledge that meat of any kind, and lean meat in particular, is regarded more as a protein source than an energy source, therefore calculations based solely on childrens' energy expenditure might not be an appropriate basis for estimating gamebird portion sizes.

[Scully]

🙂

[Stonepark]

Lets watch a prediction of mine with  non-toxic shot ( all produced abroad) disappear once energy crunch worldwide gathers pace and all we have left is LEAD in Uk to use as nothing exotic will be available.

[cardigun]

Hi Stonepark.  Are Eley  non toxic produced abroad ?  Their address is Sutton Coldfield.

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, cardigun said:

Hi Stonepark.  Are Eley  non toxic produced abroad ?  Their address is Sutton Coldfield.

Possibly referring to just the shot.

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Possibly referring to just the shot.

And probably the wad and case, likely just loaded here. Biggest parts of it all shipped here, carbon footprint HUGE, Lead probably kills less things on this planet than steel but hey ho everyone one will be happy 😆 

Edited October 15, 2021 by 8 shot

[bigroomboy]

I think its time we all just get with the programme. The transition is happening. It's not really a DEFRA thing anyway it's a societal shift that we just have to accept. The accociations made a voluntary 5 year transition statement which, based on events, was probably the right thing to do but a bit late. The biggest impact is that by the game dealers accocisation anyway and they have the right to reflect the desires of their customers. Then you have the HSE working up UK REACH. The writing is on the wall and there are alternatives which are OK now and will probably get better.

Lead is toxic, ask the Romans. I don't have a major issue eating lead shot game meat but I would prefer if it wasn't there. Then there are the wildlife impacts and the environmental impacts of scattering lead across the countryside.

In terms of production, this is the time for innovation, something the West is supposedly best at so I see this as an opportunity with the right mindset.

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:

I think its time we all just get with the programme.

The programme as it were , will lead to another program, none of which will benefit shooting, it will just lead to less shooting, less voice , and more restrictions.

24 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:

The transition is happening.

Its not up to BASC to ban lead, BASC do not make the rules.
If the 'voluntary' transition happens , it wont be because anyone voted on it , because no one was asked, its a suggestion and commitment by BASC , when they really had no place doing so.
You can say 'it was going to happen anyway' but that was never set in stone.

29 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:

It's not really a DEFRA thing anyway it's a societal shift that we just have to accept.

It is a DEFRA thing, if DEFRA opposed it , it likely wouldnt happen.

Its interesting you call it a societal shift that we have to accept, do you think society in general are bothered WHAT quarry gets shot with ?
Society in general would prefer that NO quarry is shot, especially by 'cruel' sportsman and pest controllers, whilst tucking into the supermarket meat they bought without a grain of remorse, or irony.
Do we have to accept that this is the future, no we dont .

36 minutes ago, bigroomboy said:

Lead is toxic, ask the Romans. I don't have a major issue eating lead shot game meat but I would prefer if it wasn't there. Then there are the wildlife impacts and the environmental impacts of scattering lead across the countryside.

Of course it is  so are many of the shot alternatives, bismuth ? TSS ? Resin coated shot , plastic wads ? But no , LEAD is the major pollutant  from shooting apparently  , yet no one seems to want to stick their neck and call out all the other industries pollution , because shooters, being the minority they are , are an easy target.
The one common denominator in all the lead shot alternatives is this, all are considerably more expensive, and less efficient.
And there we get back to the same trope , less shooters , less shooting , less voice, more and more restrictions, until shooting becomes the reserve of the rich, just how BASC would like it to be.

[Fellside]

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The programme as it were , will lead to another program, none of which will benefit shooting, it will just lead to less shooting, less voice , and more restrictions.

Its not up to BASC to ban lead, BASC do not make the rules.
If the 'voluntary' transition happens , it wont be because anyone voted on it , because no one was asked, its a suggestion and commitment by BASC , when they really had no place doing so.
You can say 'it was going to happen anyway' but that was never set in stone.

It is a DEFRA thing, if DEFRA opposed it , it likely wouldnt happen.

Its interesting you call it a societal shift that we have to accept, do you think society in general are bothered WHAT quarry gets shot with ?
Society in general would prefer that NO quarry is shot, especially by 'cruel' sportsman and pest controllers, whilst tucking into the supermarket meat they bought without a grain of remorse, or irony.
Do we have to accept that this is the future, no we dont .

Of course it is  so are many of the shot alternatives, bismuth ? TSS ? Resin coated shot , plastic wads ? But no , LEAD is the major pollutant  from shooting apparently  , yet no one seems to want to stick their neck and call out all the other industries pollution , because shooters, being the minority they are , are an easy target.
The one common denominator in all the lead shot alternatives is this, all are considerably more expensive, and less efficient.
And there we get back to the same trope , less shooters , less shooting , less voice, more and more restrictions, until shooting becomes the reserve of the rich, just how BASC would like it to be.

I don’t find that ‘society in general’ are against what we do. It’s easy to get that impression sometimes with the various attacks and media bias at times - especially the BBC. However it’s a relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise. 

[clangerman]

14 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I don’t find that ‘society in general’ are against what we do. It’s easy to get that impression sometimes with the various attacks and media bias at times - especially the BBC. However it’s a relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise. 

you are right the anti thing is a smokescreen joe publics concern is needless cruelty not meet anyone who objects to control once you explain the situation as for this rubbish they want your opinion but the horses mouth YOU are not allowed to give it unless it goes through basc the SAME people behind the whole thing even a blind man can see what’s wrong with that one 

[Old farrier]

This is the problem not lead shot 

the general public haven’t got a clue about lead shot and it dosent concern them however what they see does and plastic is the number 1 concern at the moment 

it took me 10 minutes to collect the pile of wads and I only strayed a few yards away from the public footpath I could have looked all day and not found a piece of shot 

 

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I don’t find that ‘society in general’ are against what we do. It’s easy to get that impression sometimes with the various attacks and media bias at times - especially the BBC. However it’s a relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise. 

With respect , I cant agree with that.
The majority of the general public take a very 'anti' view of guns in general (mostly due to the concept of guns being dangerous, thank Hollywood for that ) and any sporting use that involves the death of animals, usually generates disgust , and the usual view of it being 'cruel'

I wont go too far into it , but most peoples idea of the countryside, is that its full of toad hall style , fluffy 'pet' type animals, just going about their animal business, they liken these gorgeous creatures to their own dog, or cat.
When you try and explain to them that the average full grown fox is quite capable of mincing up dozens of smaller fluffy critters a night, lambs ect, they look at you with horror.
What do you think they eat I ask ? Grass ?

[JohnfromUK]

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

This is the problem not lead shot 

the general public haven’t got a clue about lead shot and it doesn't concern them however what they see does and plastic is the number 1 concern at the moment 

it took me 10 minutes to collect the pile of wads and I only strayed a few yards away from the public footpath

I agree.  I think it is thoroughly irresponsible for any shoot over farmland to allow plastic wads.  I ran a shoot 30+ years ago and we didn't allow plastic wads - initially mainly because one of our landlords requested that.  IF someone was found using plastic - they were stopped, we had a supply of fibre on hand - and they had to buy them - (or borrow from someone else).

53 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I don’t find that ‘society in general’ are against what we do. It’s easy to get that impression sometimes with the various attacks and media bias at times - especially the BBC. However it’s a relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise. 

I agree it is a "relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise" - but I think that generally most of the 'town dwelling public' are at best "not supportive" of shooting - seeing it as unnecessary, verging on cruel, and generally distasteful.  As the countryside becomes more a refuge for 'ex townies', old country ways and traditions are shunned in favour of 'town influences'.  If I offered my local neighbours a surplus brace of pheasants in days gone by, they were warmly welcomed, and you were thanked and often asked in for a cup or glass on something.  Now - many of the 'incomers' would open the door a crack - or speak to you via an intercom and at the mention of pheasants - you are very likely to get cut off!  At best you will get a tentative response - which goes stone cold ]the moment they realise they are still in the feather!  They don't want the live sourced food - preferring to have fresh/frozen delivered oven ready and disassociated from anything 'alive' so they don't feel guilty.

 

[Fellside]

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

With respect , I cant agree with that.
The majority of the general public take a very 'anti' view of guns in general (mostly due to the concept of guns being dangerous, thank Hollywood for that ) and any sporting use that involves the death of animals, usually generates disgust , and the usual view of it being 'cruel'

I wont go too far into it , but most peoples idea of the countryside, is that its full of toad hall style , fluffy 'pet' type animals, just going about their animal business, they liken these gorgeous creatures to their own dog, or cat.
When you try and explain to them that the average full grown fox is quite capable of mincing up dozens of smaller fluffy critters a night, lambs ect, they look at you with horror.
What do you think they eat I ask ? Grass ?

I don’t mind you disagreeing at all Rewulf. It’s interesting to gauge the opinions of others. 

I have always been very up front about my shooting. If people I meet through work, or any other walk of life, are chatting about their weekends etc. They’ll talk about their golf or whatever, I will quite openly tell them that I went shooting. I have only ever come across one Packham type, but he was so ill informed, it was quite easy to counter his opinions. Nearly every person has been fine. The only objections I’ve really had have not been about the killing of ‘poor little fluffy creatures’. They’ve been about the press reporting excess bags of pheasants being dumped. It’s surprising how much this apparent waste has touched a nerve.
 

Never over the years have I had feedback about lead….not once. I don’t think it’s a deal breaker, or even something that most folk give a damn about. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Fellside said:

I have always been very up front about my shooting. If people I meet through work, or any other walk of life, are chatting about their weekends etc. They’ll talk about their golf or whatever, I will quite openly tell them that I went shooting.

I agree - and in the past organised several evenings of clays 'come and have a go' sessions for beginners through a local clays ground/or gun shop.  Always a popular event.

Not so sure live quarry would have been as popular though!

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Never over the years have I had feedback about lead….not once. I don’t think it’s a deal breaker, or even something that most folk give a damn about. 

Exactly 

 

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree - and in the past organised several evenings of clays 'come and have a go' sessions for beginners through a local clays ground/or gun shop.  Always a popular event.

Got into shooting (And poverty !) just like this , I believed firearms to be beyond my humble townie means, but a charity clay match changed everything.

Since then Ive done everything I can to get as many people interested, and educated, into all aspects of firearms , be it target or live quarry.
9/10 of are very surprised to find  that their pre conceptions were wrong.

[Fellside]

26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree.  I think it is thoroughly irresponsible for any shoot over farmland to allow plastic wads.  I ran a shoot 30+ years ago and we didn't allow plastic wads - initially mainly because one of our landlords requested that.  IF someone was found using plastic - they were stopped, we had a supply of fibre on hand - and they had to buy them - (or borrow from someone else).

I agree it is a "relatively small minority of very loud extremists and antis who are making most of the noise" - but I think that generally most of the 'town dwelling public' are at best "not supportive" of shooting - seeing it as unnecessary, verging on cruel, and generally distasteful.  As the countryside becomes more a refuge for 'ex townies', old country ways and traditions are shunned in favour of 'town influences'.  If I offered my local neighbours a surplus brace of pheasants in days gone by, they were warmly welcomed, and you were thanked and often asked in for a cup or glass on something.  Now - many of the 'incomers' would open the door a crack - or speak to you via an intercom and at the mention of pheasants - you are very likely to get cut off!  At best you will get a tentative response - which goes stone cold ]the moment they realise they are still in the feather!  They don't want the live sourced food - preferring to have fresh/frozen delivered oven ready and disassociated from anything 'alive' so they don't feel guilty.

 

We have a lot of incomers in my part of the world too. Some are as you describe, but realise after a couple of years that they are surrounded by farming and shooting activities and eventually normalise it. Actually some of them, quite a few, site the country sports opportunities as their main reason for moving to the country. So I do think there is a mix. 
 

There was one extreme exception however - a woman who bought a small cottage on the outskirts of the village. She had the police out to a farmhand muck spreading. She objected to the smell…?! The rather forthright farm owner told her and the police never to interrupt his employee’s job ever again. The following year she had the police out to a chap shooting pigeons on OSR about two fields away. Again nothing illegal for the police to follow up. The police soon got fed up and asked her not to waste further police time unless she was reporting an actual crime. She then moved away. Fortunately, in my area anyway, this kind of attitude  seems to be unusual. 

[Scully]

While I never broadcast my shooting to the none shooting general public, if the topic ever comes up wherever I am, I never shy away from discussing it, and will and have discussed it with many people, from those who scoff at the term ‘sport’ ( not a term mentioned by me I hasten to add )  to those who have shouted various things at us on driven days. The latter is great fun. 🙂
There was a time I regularly had debates with LACS members and Avery, although the format of their podium makes it quite difficult. Strangely, amongst all the things I’ve discussed, not one has ever mentioned excess birds allegedly being dumped. Not even the antis!
The only people who have mentioned this to me have been on this forum, and equally strangely, never backed up by evidence. 
Anyhow, I have been stocking up on lead for quite some time now, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I will be shooting lead throughout the season and the one after that, and so on, with perhaps the exception being beaters day on the BIG shoot, because no matter what anyone says, if game dealers won’t buy lead shot quarry, then we’ll be using NTS. This shoot is the only one  I’m involved with which sells its quarry to a dealer. No one has mentioned NTS yet and I haven’t asked. 
In my experience, no one wants birds in feather, not even for free ( except my local restaurant chef ) but most are willing to give it a go if they’re dressed, irrespective of what it’s been shot with, which so far has never been mentioned. 
I supplied lead shot rabbits for many years to people who paid me to supply them with fresh meat for their pets, and once while in Malta ( national dish is rabbit based ) it was amusing to find many British wolfing it down with relish, who would just smile sheepishly when I mentioned I couldn’t give them away back home. In this day and age no one wants to prep. 🙂

[Fellside]

44 minutes ago, Scully said:

Strangely, amongst all the things I’ve discussed, not one has ever mentioned excess birds allegedly being dumped. Not even the antis!
The only people who have mentioned this to me have been on this forum, and equally strangely, never backed up by evidence. 

If you don’t mention your shooting to non field sports contacts - you’re not likely to hear about their concerns. The dumping excess bags (mostly exaggerated) issue was hot a while ago, and a point raised to me by several people, but has since cooled somewhat. 
 

If you understand the shooting world….as I’m sure you do… you might not think it so strange that no one is prepared to demonstrate evidence re excess bags etc. on a public forum. As I emphasised in our last discussion, we all know it has occurred, if we’re prepared to be open and honest. Hopefully, due to the stink it caused (no pun intended) things are in better shape.