Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mice!]

8 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The UK was trashed during WW2, and for a while it stood alone, should they have thrown their hands up and let Hitler invade.  If the Ukrainians did as you suggested their would be no need for negation, they would be ruled by Russian gangsters. 

The Germans weren't just attacking us, we all know this. Russia have gone in to The Ukraine saying its to do with the East and Crimea, and no doubt fears over the Ukraine getting friendly and supported by NATO. 

The UK was trashed by being bombed, we had seen what Hitler was doing across Europe and acted. We were never going to throw our hands up.

I know France gets stick for surrendering,  but what I didn't know was how badly they were punished in WW1, It was only through following a link I learned that.

If the Ukraine ends up looking like Syria will there resistance have been worth it?

This is why countries join NATO,  so there's support and to hopefully avoid another world war.

[ordnance]

Quote

 

The Germans weren't just attacking us, we all know this. Russia have gone in to The Ukraine saying its to do with the East and Crimea, and no doubt fears over the Ukraine getting friendly and supported by NATO. 

The UK was trashed by being bombed, we had seen what Hitler was doing across Europe and acted. We were never going to throw our hands up.

 

 The UK throwing the hands up there were plenty thought they should have, I see similar appeasement attitudes are still around today.  What Hitler was doing across Europe was invading independent countries, sound familiar. The mistake of appeasing Hitler encouraged him, the same happened with Putin lessons not learned. You are OK with countries joining NATO ( so there's support and to hopefully avoid another world war ) but are OK with Russia having a veto on who joins, Russia claiming Ukraine's wish to join NATO was one reason for its invasion. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by ordnance

[Raja Clavata]

Long but might help some unravel aspects of the wider complexities associated with all this…

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/30/grand-illusions-impact-of-misperceptions-about-russia-on-u.s.-policy-pub-84845

 

[Mice!]

26 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You are OK with countries joining NATO ( so there's support and to hopefully avoid another world war ) but are OK with Russia having a veto on who joins, Russia claiming Ukraine's wish to join NATO was one reason for its invasion. 

I don't know why Russia would be allowed a veto, I don't know why they would have anything to do with the decision? Look at the countries around Russia who are in NATO,  there's no doubt why they've joined.

Moldova must be watching carefully, but what could they do?

Look at how long we have gone with peace, obviously thanks to NATO and other agreements, was the Falklands the last time we were openly attacked?

26 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The mistake of appeasing Hitler encouraged him, the same happened with Putin lessons not learned.

It was mentioned on one of the earlier threads or this one, Europe isn't willing and doesn't want to go to war over the Ukraine,  it sounds harsh but its true, but that doesn't mean that they'll stand by while Putin runs unchecked,  but from what's been written if he stays out of NATO member countries then no-one will act.

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, ordnance said:

The UK was trashed during WW2, and for a while it stood alone, should they have thrown their hands up and let Hitler invade.  If the Ukrainians did as you suggested their would be no need for negation, they would be ruled by Russian gangsters. Sounds like you are blaming the destruction in Ukraine on the Ukrainians for not surrendering, rather than Putin for invading. 

Agreed.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, interesting that Boris. mentioned Crimea , should have done more ?? Perhaps if there had been more world support and sanctions would Putin still have invaded Ukraine ?? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, interesting that Boris. mentioned Crimea , should have done more ?? Perhaps if there had been more world support and sanctions would Putin still have invaded Ukraine ?? 

Possibly not, but hindsight is a wonderful thing!

[old man]

14 hours ago, Mice! said:

China 😳

Sadly everyone plays that game?

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

I wonder will Russia paying for the damage they did in Ukraine be part of a deal if there is one, sanctions should stay until they do. Russia / Putin should be allowed to walk away with anything they can spin as a victory. 

Will be interesting to see which of the EU cave in first?

[Raja Clavata]

11 hours ago, Mungler said:

The Ukrainians have certainly taken one for team Europe. Indeed, it’s a good job they took a stand - if the Russians were at the border of France, do you ever see the French cultural snobs sacrificing their precious Paris to maintain sovereignty? Not a chance. 

I can’t see Putin having another go for a while, or he’ll at least think twice perhaps.

 

They (Ukrainians) certainly are.

What have you got against the French, disparaging comments towards them are a near constant theme to your posts?

The reality is that Putin does not have the conventional fire power to get to the French border without first bringing down the NATO alliance, even then it appears debateable.

But such a scenario could be academic for the UK since in order to get to that point Putin might have taken the calculated risk of launching tactical nuclear weapons at the UK. 

Whilst it's clear that Ukraine is the East/West front line for conventional warfare with Russia, several learned sources appear to view us (the UK!) as the East/West frontline for tactical nuclear warfare / stand-off with Russia.

If Russia did put tactical nukes into the UK our deterrent would by definition have failed, we can't respond with tactical nukes since we don't have any. How confident are you we'd launch nukes back without first getting the OK from the US to so?

If we did, how confident are you that Russian missile defence couldn't take them out.

Under such a scenario, how confident are you the Americans would hit their nuke buttons vs. the rest of the world reflecting that the UK took one for the Western World?

This is why it's particularly important for Ukraine and the rest of the West to see a negotiated end to the current conflict where Putin is seen to save some degree of face. It's also why it's completely perplexing to hear some people suggest that Ukraine should not be resisting Russia.

Now more than ever we should be tight with our allies, not having pops at them based on questionable by-gone stigma and stereotypes.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, is this another war crime, Russian solders shot dead Ukrainian citizens waiting in a queue for bread, 

[Smokersmith]

If it’s as reported, then I suspect it is.

[ShootingEgg]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, is this another war crime, Russian solders shot dead Ukrainian citizens waiting in a queue for bread, 

That's called murder so a crime in its own right ... War or no war .. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, is this another war crime, Russian solders shot dead Ukrainian citizens waiting in a queue for bread, 

This happened Wednesday 10 people murdered waiting for a loaf of bread, 

[Mungler]

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

They (Ukrainians) certainly are.

What have you got against the French, disparaging comments towards them are a near constant theme to your posts?

The reality is that Putin does not have the conventional fire power to get to the French border without first bringing down the NATO alliance, even then it appears debateable.

But such a scenario could be academic for the UK since in order to get to that point Putin might have taken the calculated risk of launching tactical nuclear weapons at the UK. 

Whilst it's clear that Ukraine is the East/West front line for conventional warfare with Russia, several learned sources appear to view us (the UK!) as the East/West frontline for tactical nuclear warfare / stand-off with Russia.

If Russia did put tactical nukes into the UK our deterrent would by definition have failed, we can't respond with tactical nukes since we don't have any. How confident are you we'd launch nukes back without first getting the OK from the US to so?

If we did, how confident are you that Russian missile defence couldn't take them out.

Under such a scenario, how confident are you the Americans would hit their nuke buttons vs. the rest of the world reflecting that the UK took one for the Western World?

This is why it's particularly important for Ukraine and the rest of the West to see a negotiated end to the current conflict where Putin is seen to save some degree of face. It's also why it's completely perplexing to hear some people suggest that Ukraine should not be resisting Russia.

Now more than ever we should be tight with our allies, not having pops at them based on questionable by-gone stigma and stereotypes.

The French consider themselves culturally superior to everyone else and that probably goes some way in explaining their dislike of everything American. 

As a small island we have to throw our cards in with a greater force ally - with the yanks we have a common language and when they have a republican at the wheel we are well placed. No one spends more on their military than the yanks.

Macron is a self serving peacock who is far too fond of himself. The mere mention of a European army right now totally undermines nato but he can’t help himself in his election year. 

The French and the Germans cannot be trusted - both in terms of loyalty and judgment. That clip of Trump telling the European nations that they needed to spend more on nato and stop buying Russian gas is so prophet it hurts. 

All conflicts end in a negotiated settlement of sorts. All that the Russians have achieved in this is flattening civilian cities and murdering civilians - as for military prowess or victory, that ship has long sailed.

The shame is that no one from Russia will end up in The Hague.

On the other side of the coin, whilst I know you are a true remainer, what’s your basis for supporting the French and assuming they get their way on a European army with Macron at the helm?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Mungler

[Mice!]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The French and the Germans cannot be trusted - both in terms of loyalty and judgment. That clip of Trump telling the European nations that they needed to spend more on nato and stop buying Russian gas is so prophet it hurts. 

I don't disagree about France or Germany,  they obviously put themselves first, and they certainly played dirty over Brexit.

Who would have thought given the stick folk gave Trump that he'd have been right, if it wasn't so serious I'm sure he'd be having a good laugh and rubbing it in on twitter or such .

[Jim Neal]

21 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Long but might help some unravel aspects of the wider complexities associated with all this…

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/30/grand-illusions-impact-of-misperceptions-about-russia-on-u.s.-policy-pub-84845

 

I've given that my best shot but it's written in a style that's not particularly easy to read.  The words seem to bounce off my eyes!

There are parts of it that seem a little biased, and also parts which seem to be opinion offered rather than raw facts.

Thanks though, it was interesting to read even if it's a little long-winded! 👍

[oldypigeonpopper]

16 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

This happened Wednesday 10 people murdered waiting for a loaf of bread, 

and looks like another atrocity with the bombing of a theatre where a reported 1000 ? in there, many children, even a written message Children did not stop a Putin bomb, and yet still no country is prepared to stand up with Ukraine, 

[ditchman]

slightly off on a tangent........

do you remember the last days of sadam hussein....when he was still in power and the allies were over running his country...he had a "spoksman"...who was a total misguided comedian..saying everything was fine and the iraquis were fighting back and inflicting terrible losses...blah blah blah.........it was laughable....all the iraqui stance/position kept on coming thro him.................

.........i cant help thinking there is a great similarity between him and Serge labarov...the russian spoksman.....who has a total bull excrement answer to everything asked of him

just seems very similar.........a familar pattern.................and in the case of Hussien we all know what happened next..

what do you think >? or am i tilting at windmills ?

[Smokersmith]

Some similarities ...

This will be very different though, and I'm sure Putin will get to a stage where he can declare 'victory' and then systematically go about wiping out anyone within Russia who's not supporting him.

Dire times to be a Russian with aspirations of a more liberated life.

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Some similarities ...

This will be very different though, and I'm sure Putin will get to a stage where he can declare 'victory' and then systematically go about wiping out anyone within Russia who's not supporting him.

Dire times to be a Russian with aspirations of a more liberated life.

Yep, along with China and Saudi Arabia. See also that Cuba has just reminded us why we should not to go for a villa in Havana.

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

slightly off on a tangent........

do you remember the last days of sadam hussein....when he was still in power and the allies were over running his country...he had a "spoksman"...who was a total misguided comedian..saying everything was fine and the iraquis were fighting back and inflicting terrible losses...blah blah blah.........it was laughable....all the iraqui stance/position kept on coming thro him.................

.........i cant help thinking there is a great similarity between him and Serge labarov...the russian spoksman.....who has a total bull excrement answer to everything asked of him

just seems very similar.........a familar pattern.................and in the case of Hussien we all know what happened next..

what do you think >? or am i tilting at windmills ?

 

Comical Ali.

He was brilliant. I remember that towards the end when he knew and everyone knew the game was up he actually played along.

He's alive and living in the UAE - I think the coalition forces gave him a pass in the end.

 

 

[ditchman]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Comical Ali.

He was brilliant. I remember that towards the end when he knew and everyone knew the game was up he actually played along.

He's alive and living in the UAE - I think the coalition forces gave him a pass in the end.

 

 

hah.........didnt know he was still alive........actually (peversly) im quite pleased that he survived......he was quite funny......people like that are not meant to die

[Rewulf]

51 minutes ago, Mungler said:

He's alive and living in the UAE - I think the coalition forces gave him a pass in the end.

Died a week last Saturday aged 84.
Lived a lot longer than his contemporaries .

[Raja Clavata]

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

The French consider themselves culturally superior to everyone else and that probably goes some way in explaining their dislike of everything American. 

They don't actually dislike everything American, they have resisted perceived "Americanisation" more than some other countries on a number of fronts including cuisine. Objectively they are justified in that aspect based on my own experiences of both the dining experience and cuisine. They are also undeniably physically fitter compared to Brits and Yanks on a like for like basis, there may be a link there in relation to cuisine / diet. 

In some respects the French have more in common with the Yanks compared to us Brits - for example both are republics.

As you know, a couple hundred years ago they even joined Forces and beat us up. They have had issues and tensions since, like all nations.

Wasn't it Chirac that told the US they wouldn't prevail in Vietnam, didn't the French also strongly object to the first Gulf War - right on both those counts. They also clashed on the US bombing of Kosovo - not sure who was right on that one TBH.

Do you not think the Yanks also have an air of arrogance / superiority, limited world view? - I accept that they win on the sheer number of them, at least compared to European nations, but certainly not on individual / averaged brilliance... 

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

As a small island we have to throw our cards in with a greater force ally - with the yanks we have a common language and when they have a republican at the wheel we are well placed. No one spends more on their military than the yanks.

Agree on everything except perhaps the Republican bit although I accept Trump might have been an exception.

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

Macron is a self serving peacock who is far too fond of himself. The mere mention of a European army right now totally undermines nato but he can’t help himself in his election year. 

Again, agreed but Macron does not define French culture and history, it can be argued he barely represents France even. But is he really any worse than Boris, Trump, Biden & Co...

I'm with you on the European Army, I've never seen this having legs to be honest and still don't, even more so now given this notion that an element of resolving the Ukraine issue could involve them joining the EU but not being part of NATO.

Key point being if an EU Army existed prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine that Army would have done less than NATO countries have, pretty much for the same reasons.

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

The French and the Germans cannot be trusted - both in terms of loyalty and judgment. That clip of Trump telling the European nations that they needed to spend more on nato and stop buying Russian gas is so prophet it hurts. 

There's plenty of nations that say the same about us.

Trump was around long enough to get something right, just on the law of averages. He was submissive to Putin in a way that even many of his own people found repulsive. Can it credibly be argued that he did anything but encourage the actions Putin has taken? I'm not blaming Trump for what's happening by the way.

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

All conflicts end in a negotiated settlement of sorts. All that the Russians have achieved in this is flattening civilian cities and murdering civilians - as for military prowess or victory, that ship has long sailed.

The shame is that no one from Russia will end up in The Hague.

Agreed.

22 hours ago, Mungler said:

On the other side of the coin, whilst I know you are a true remainer, what’s your basis for supporting the French and assuming they get their way on a European army with Macron at the helm?

Yes, I was a Remainer. As someone who worked in a large US HQ'd multinational at the time, it really didn't make sense for me to vote Leave.

I'm not a French supporter, I now work for an enormous French HQ'd multinational and deal with France, Germany, US, Portugal and India on a daily basis. Hand on heart I can say that the French and Americans are the most difficult to deal with by some margin - even when they are on your side.

I don't believe the majority of the French public want an EU Army since they know they'd bear the brunt of financing it and most likely see the biggest losses if put to use. So, for me, any notion of an EU Army is a Macron gig, I don't think it's going to happen and certainly don't believe he'd be at the helm if it did.

[Jim Neal]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Died a week last Saturday aged 84.
Lived a lot longer than his contemporaries .

Died a year ago, a week last Saturday according to Wiki!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf

I had a couple of Baghdad Bob T-shirts, he was quite entertaining.

Memes weren't really a thing back then but my favourite t-shirt was with this quote but with a cartoon pic of him instead:

Edited March 17, 2022 by Jim Neal