BASC position on lead ammunition restriction proposals

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC has published some more detail on its position on the Health and Safety Executive proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition for outdoor recreational shooting in England, Wales and Scotland under the UK REACH regulations.

In summary:

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for live quarry shooting
Restrictions must be evidence-based and proportionate to the risk.

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
Opposed to restriction proposals.

Lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting
Opposed to restriction proposals.

More details here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-position-uk-reach-lead-ammunition-restriction-proposals/
 

[Scully]

I don’t expect a reply at all, but there must be NO exemptions for target shooters. Lead is either toxic or it isnt. 
If there is an exemption for clay shooters ( while I’m not a dedicated clay shooter I do participate throughout the year ) as exemptions for any discipline is grossly unfair to those who don’t benefit from those exemptions, and grossly hypocritical given the stated reasons for the proposed banning of lead. 
Also, if there are exemptions for clay shooters, which means there will be continued availability of lead shot cartridges, who is going to Police compliance? There is nothing to prevent anyone, as groups or individuals, from using target loads for live quarry. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Scully

[patrickstar]

well said

[Dave at kelton]

And when you read the report there is no direct evidence. It is all assumptions leading to the conclusions and hence the banning is simply unsupported by anything tangible.

[silver fox 1]

Connor I would like to ask you a question does Basc Consider lead to be toxic?

[8 shot]

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t expect a reply at all, but there must be NO exemptions for target shooters. Lead is either toxic or it isnt. 
If there is an exemption for clay shooters; while I’m not a dedicated clay shooter I do participate throughout the year. Exemptions for any discipline is grossly unfair to those who don’t benefit from those exemptions, and grossly hypocritical given the stated reasons for the proposed banning of lead. 
Also, if there are exemptions for clay shooters, which means there will be continued availability of lead shot cartridges, who is going to Police compliance? There is nothing to prevent anyone, as groups or individuals, from using target loads for live quarry. 

Momentous occasion........we are finally in total, 100% agreement with each other....😃 we've see the NGO wriggling a bit as well lately to

Edited June 13, 2022 by 8 shot

[silver fox 1]

Perhaps we should all be thinking about replacing our lead water pipes that supply drinking water as well?

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Momentous occasion........we are finally in total, 100% agreement with each other....😃 we've see the NGO wriggling a bit as well lately to

I’m no longer a member, do tell. 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I don’t expect a reply at all, but there must be NO exemptions for target shooters. Lead is either toxic or it isnt. 
If there is an exemption for clay shooters ( while I’m not a dedicated clay shooter I do participate throughout the year ) as exemptions for any discipline is grossly unfair to those who don’t benefit from those exemptions, and grossly hypocritical given the stated reasons for the proposed banning of lead. 
Also, if there are exemptions for clay shooters, which means there will be continued availability of lead shot cartridges, who is going to Police compliance? There is nothing to prevent anyone, as groups or individuals, from using target loads for live quarry. 

This in respect of so called "Olympic shooters". 100%. This is NOT "Animal Farm" where some animals are more equal than others. No exemptions for "Olympic shooters".

Edited June 13, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Graham M]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I don’t expect a reply at all, but there must be NO exemptions for target shooters. Lead is either toxic or it isnt. 
If there is an exemption for clay shooters ( while I’m not a dedicated clay shooter I do participate throughout the year ) as exemptions for any discipline is grossly unfair to those who don’t benefit from those exemptions, and grossly hypocritical given the stated reasons for the proposed banning of lead. 
Also, if there are exemptions for clay shooters, which means there will be continued availability of lead shot cartridges, who is going to Police compliance? There is nothing to prevent anyone, as groups or individuals, from using target loads for live quarry. 

There can't be a replacement for smallbore target rifle because ...........there isn't one. Any attempt to replace lead .22 match ammunition has failed completely with absolutely no way meaningful scores can be achieved with non toxic bullets as they just aren't accurate enough to win anything, especially against other countries that would still use lead; China for instance. What you are effectively saying is if I am going to be affected then so are you. We are supposed to be a united voice in all of this, but once again we see the game shooters taking up arms against the target shooters. I have seen this before on this forum where game and vermin shooters deride target shooting by what they term the "Funny coat brigade".

As someone who shoots vermin, deer and target I have seen all sides when it comes to throwing other disciplines under the bus. Steel shot is a fairly simple way to change from shooting lead when engaged in clays or game because all that has to be altered is choke and shot size etc. Yes I know that new wads have to be developed but overall accuracy isn't being affected. But with smallbore target shooting you are aiming for 1/4 MOA accuracy to try and hold the spot at 25yds or the X ring at 50 / 100yds. Tests with the best non toxic bullets have shown that the grouping is so bad that competitions would be based more on luck as to who had fluked the best score based on who was nearest the bull.

Lead shot is spread over a wide area whereas lead bullets go into a backstop that can be contained and recovered. And as for using this inaccurate ammunition for rabbits etc, are you really saying that we shouldn't be looking to kill with a clean accurate shot? ....... or should we just chuck rubbish ammo at a rabbit and hope we hit it cleanly (if at all) and not just injure it so it bolts down a hole and take hours to slowly die.

And so once again it's one shooting discipline trying to either survive at the expense of another, or trying to drag it down with it.

 

 

 

[holloway]

8 hours ago, Graham M said:

There can't be a replacement for smallbore target rifle because ...........there isn't one. Any attempt to replace lead .22 match ammunition has failed completely with absolutely no way meaningful scores can be achieved with non toxic bullets as they just aren't accurate enough to win anything, especially against other countries that would still use lead; China for instance. What you are effectively saying is if I am going to be affected then so are you. We are supposed to be a united voice in all of this, but once again we see the game shooters taking up arms against the target shooters. I have seen this before on this forum where game and vermin shooters deride target shooting by what they term the "Funny coat brigade".

As someone who shoots vermin, deer and target I have seen all sides when it comes to throwing other disciplines under the bus. Steel shot is a fairly simple way to change from shooting lead when engaged in clays or game because all that has to be altered is choke and shot size etc. Yes I know that new wads have to be developed but overall accuracy isn't being affected. But with smallbore target shooting you are aiming for 1/4 MOA accuracy to try and hold the spot at 25yds or the X ring at 50 / 100yds. Tests with the best non toxic bullets have shown that the grouping is so bad that competitions would be based more on luck as to who had fluked the best score based on who was nearest the bull.

Lead shot is spread over a wide area whereas lead bullets go into a backstop that can be contained and recovered. And as for using this inaccurate ammunition for rabbits etc, are you really saying that we shouldn't be looking to kill with a clean accurate shot? ....... or should we just chuck rubbish ammo at a rabbit and hope we hit it cleanly (if at all) and not just injure it so it bolts down a hole and take hours to slowly die.

And so once again it's one shooting discipline trying to either survive at the expense of another, or trying to drag it down with it.

 

 

 

I would imagine that with target shooting probably 100 % of the lead could be contained and retrieved ,and under that guarantee could possibly continue as normal using a common sense approach .

[Windswept]

10 hours ago, Scully said:

Also, if there are exemptions for clay shooters, which means there will be continued availability of lead shot cartridges, who is going to Police compliance? There is nothing to prevent anyone, as groups or individuals, from using target loads for live quarry. 

Yes there is, the same thing that stops responsible shooters from shooting game out of season and following all the other firearms laws. I know people moan here about the shooting organisations, wild justice etc but saying shooters can't be trusted is just as bad.

[Westley]

10 hours ago, silver fox 1 said:

Perhaps we should all be thinking about replacing our lead water pipes that supply drinking water as well?

££££££££££' s  ?

You can replace your lead service pipe from the outside stopcock to the property with plastic, AT YOUR EXPENSE.  It is highly likely that from that stopcock to the main water pipe, will remain as lead.

[mellors]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has published some more detail on its position on the Health and Safety Executive proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition for outdoor recreational shooting in England, Wales and Scotland under the UK REACH regulations.

In summary:

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for live quarry shooting
Restrictions must be evidence-based and proportionate to the risk.

Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for target shooting
Opposed to restriction proposals.

Lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting
Opposed to restriction proposals.

More details here:

https://basc.org.uk/basc-position-uk-reach-lead-ammunition-restriction-proposals/
 

I'm afraid your position has been clear from the start. 

Damage limitation. 

 

[Bobba]

10 hours ago, silver fox 1 said:

Connor I would like to ask you a question does Basc Consider lead to be toxic?

You are trying to have a conversation with the deaf. 

[wymberley]

"The sector has already committed to a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry shooting"

In view of the above, are it and the following: 

"Lead rifle ammunition and lead shot for live quarry shooting
Restrictions must be evidence-based and proportionate to the risk."

compatible?

[Scully]

9 hours ago, Graham M said:

There can't be a replacement for smallbore target rifle because ...........there isn't one. Any attempt to replace lead .22 match ammunition has failed completely with absolutely no way meaningful scores can be achieved with non toxic bullets as they just aren't accurate enough to win anything, especially against other countries that would still use lead; China for instance. What you are effectively saying is if I am going to be affected then so are you. We are supposed to be a united voice in all of this, but once again we see the game shooters taking up arms against the target shooters. I have seen this before on this forum where game and vermin shooters deride target shooting by what they term the "Funny coat brigade".

As someone who shoots vermin, deer and target I have seen all sides when it comes to throwing other disciplines under the bus. Steel shot is a fairly simple way to change from shooting lead when engaged in clays or game because all that has to be altered is choke and shot size etc. Yes I know that new wads have to be developed but overall accuracy isn't being affected. But with smallbore target shooting you are aiming for 1/4 MOA accuracy to try and hold the spot at 25yds or the X ring at 50 / 100yds. Tests with the best non toxic bullets have shown that the grouping is so bad that competitions would be based more on luck as to who had fluked the best score based on who was nearest the bull.

Lead shot is spread over a wide area whereas lead bullets go into a backstop that can be contained and recovered. And as for using this inaccurate ammunition for rabbits etc, are you really saying that we shouldn't be looking to kill with a clean accurate shot? ....... or should we just chuck rubbish ammo at a rabbit and hope we hit it cleanly (if at all) and not just injure it so it bolts down a hole and take hours to slowly die.

And so once again it's one shooting discipline trying to either survive at the expense of another, or trying to drag it down with it.

 

 

 

There was a time I shot nothing but targets, but that ended when, through no fault of my own, they banned my means to do it.

So let’s turn your argument around shall we? I’m sure that true to form, the serious target shooting organisations will be in full support of the live quarry shooters in their attempts to save lead projectiles, rather than seeking exemptions for those who don’t shoot live quarry. 😂

As history shows, they have had plenty of practice at seeking exemptions for the elite within their particular groups and not caring a jot about the ordinary everyday shooters who just like a bit of plinking, but whom they also they claim to represent.  I know this because I was once one of them. 
There is more than one organisation within the UK with a history of attempting to distance itself from those it feels pose a threat to their particular discipline. 
So what I am actually saying is that the target shooters will be saying ‘you may be affected, but rather than fight for you to carry on using what you have always traditionally used, I’m going to fight to maintain what we traditionally use, and you can ****** off’. 🙂

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

Yes there is, the same thing that stops responsible shooters from shooting game out of season and following all the other firearms laws. I know people moan here about the shooting organisations, wild justice etc but saying shooters can't be trusted is just as bad.

You mean the same law that it is widely claimed by many finger pointers, that hasn’t prevented game shooters shooting wildfowl with lead? That one? 
Who is going to police legislation so easily prone to non compliance? Do you know just how many shoots take place nationwide throughout the week during the game season? 

[Graham M]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

There was a time I shot nothing but targets, but that ended when, through no fault of my own, they banned my means to do it.

So let’s turn your argument around shall we? I’m sure that true to form, the serious target shooting organisations will be in full support of the live quarry shooters in their attempts to save lead projectiles, rather than seeking exemptions for those who don’t shoot live quarry. 😂

As history shows, they have had plenty of practice at seeking exemptions for the elite within their particular groups and not caring a jot about the ordinary everyday shooters who just like a bit of plinking, but whom they also they claim to represent.  I know this because I was once one of them. 
There is more than one organisation within the UK with a history of attempting to distance itself from those it feels pose a threat to their particular discipline. 
So what I am actually saying is that the target shooters will be saying ‘you may be affected, but rather than fight for you to carry on using what you have always traditionally used, I’m going to fight to maintain what we traditionally use, and you can ****** off’. 🙂

So what you are saying is because you no longer shoot target the rest of the target shooting world are a bunch of snobs who can be shafted to please the live quarry shooters.

As I say I've seen it all before when S/A fullbore rifles were banned in 88 no-one that shot other disciplines cared. And when pistols were banned we even had the local clay shooters refusing to sign a petition because they were of the opinion that pistols were only owned by cowboys. And now that we are seeing a situation which WILL affect smallbore rifle to the point where it will become a waste of time competing and people will pack up causing clubs to close down. And if that happens then "Olympic shooters" will be a thing of the past as there won't be anywhere for them to shoot anyway.

Another shooting discipline removed from the UK. 

We are supposed to be a united front on this, but as usual we turn on each other in the belief that if someone else's sport is lost our own will be saved.

[Scully]

54 minutes ago, Graham M said:

So what you are saying is because you no longer shoot target the rest of the target shooting world are a bunch of snobs who can be shafted to please the live quarry shooters.

NO, THATS WHAT YOU’RE SAYING; I NEVER SAID ANYTHING IF THE SORT!

As I say I've seen it all before when S/A fullbore rifles were banned in 88 no-one that shot other disciplines cared. And when pistols were banned we even had the local clay shooters refusing to sign a petition because they were of the opinion that pistols were only owned by cowboys.
I KNOW, I WAS ONE OF THOSE SO CALLED COWBOYS. 
And now that we are seeing a situation which WILL affect smallbore rifle to the point where it will become a waste of time competing and people will pack up causing clubs to close down. And if that happens then "Olympic shooters" will be a thing of the past as there won't be anywhere for them to shoot anyway.

Another shooting discipline removed from the UK. 

We are supposed to be a united front on this, but as usual we turn on each other in the belief that if someone else's sport is lost our own will be saved.

What I am saying is that basically ‘what goes around comes around’, and you can bet your bottom dollar that as per usual, those organisation not involved in shooting live quarry, and the organisations representing them, rather than fighting for the retention of lead for all of us, will be getting busy lobbying in the fight for exemptions exclusively for themselves. 
You see if I’m wrong. 
As an aside. I find your claims of being ‘united’ highly hypocritical in light of previous posts you have made regarding driven shooting, given that you yourself are, or were, involved. 
It’s not me calling for a ban, but either lead is toxic or it’s not. 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 14, 2022 by Scully

[Kev1gun]

What about Lead flashing on roofs, everything that leaches off that ends up in the watercourse, are we going to strip off all the lead from Roofs?

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, Graham M said:

We are supposed to be a united front on this, but as usual we turn on each other in the belief that if someone else's sport is lost our own will be saved.

you see steel as nothing more than change so I have to wound more birds using it while you deserve exemption because anything bar lead wounds more rabbits do you know what a bus looks like? 

[stagboy]

A few years ago, the biggest field study ever conducted into lead vs steel found what many of us have found out for ourselves ie for most shooters, most of the time, there is no difference.

 

TPWD releases dove lethality study findings (samrayburn.com)

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by stagboy
typo

[Newbie to this]

1 minute ago, stagboy said:

there is no difference.

But that is a mis-truth, if there is no difference, why do I need to go up 2 sizes in shot and why do I need to worry more about rebounds 

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

you can bet your bottom dollar that as per usual, those organisation not involved in shooting live quarry, and the organisations representing them, rather than fighting for the retention of lead for all of us, will be getting busy lobbying in the fight for exemptions exclusively for themselves. 

But surely that's why there are different organisations for different interests, if only the 8 or so orgs. that are supposed to represent Live quarry shooters did exactly that. May be if nothing else comes from this is we end up with one decent organisation that represents ALL shooting interests.