Middle class housing crisis

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Not so.

If you look at the Ugandan Indians that Idi Amin turfed out on 90 days notice in the 70's most arrived here with the clothes on their back but took advantage of a free education system for their kids and made the sacrifice to work unsociable hours and do the jobs no one else wanted to do in order to make money. As a group they were all extremely successful and their kids are now doctors and surgeons.

More recently we used to employ a Bulgarian cleaner. You have never seen anyone work like her - headphones on and that was her off like the Duracell bunny for 4 hours. She said she left Bulgaria for a better life - she was a cleaner and her husband was an odd job builder type. Both her kids passed the 11+ and went to Grammar school. Her commentary was that the English were lazy and English children grew up lazy. She said that one of her kids was finding it difficult to make friends as school (a Grammar school ranked 14th in the whole Country) and her response was "my children go to school to learn, not to make friends or enjoy themselves, and that is so my children don't grow up to be a cleaner or a handy man."

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

Yep. In my experience of Eastern European immigrants, the work ethic of particularly the females, is second to none. 

[old'un]

I guess a lot depends on what you expect for your first property, price, location, number of bedroom etc.

think there's a lot of first time buyers looking at £350-£400k houses when in realty they should be looking at £150-£200k houses, or lower.

looking at the average rent around Bristol of £1500-£2000 per month against a mortgage of say £250k @6% over 30 years with a £10k deposit works out at around £1440 per month, your not going to get a property in the middle of Bristol for that money but if you have not got the money to buy a £350k-£400k house then they need to lower their dreams.

[Lloyd90]

12 minutes ago, old'un said:

I guess a lot depends on what you expect for your first property, price, location, number of bedroom etc.

think there's a lot of first time buyers looking at £350-£400k houses when in realty they should be looking at £150-£200k houses, or lower.

looking at the average rent around Bristol of £1500-£2000 per month against a mortgage of say £250k @6% over 30 years with a £10k deposit works out at around £1440 per month, your not going to get a property in the middle of Bristol for that money but if you have not got the money to buy a £350k-£400k house then they need to lower their dreams.

You wouldn’t get a £250k property with a £10k deposit anyway. 
 

All depends where you want / need to live. 
 

You’d just about get a flat in Bristol for £150-200k now. 
 

 

The reality is, this has been going on in London for a very long time. People getting priced out and having to totally relocate. 
 

Now it’s spilling over into other big cities, as well as very popular holiday destinations. 

[Rupert]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Not so.

If you look at the Ugandan Indians that Idi Amin turfed out on 90 days notice in the 70's most arrived here with the clothes on their back but took advantage of a free education system for their kids and made the sacrifice to work unsociable hours and do the jobs no one else wanted to do in order to make money. As a group they were all extremely successful and their kids are now doctors and surgeons.

More recently we used to employ a Bulgarian cleaner. You have never seen anyone work like her - headphones on and that was her off like the Duracell bunny for 4 hours. She said she left Bulgaria for a better life - she was a cleaner and her husband was an odd job builder type. Both her kids passed the 11+ and went to Grammar school. Her commentary was that the English were lazy and English children grew up lazy. She said that one of her kids was finding it difficult to make friends as school (a Grammar school ranked 14th in the whole Country) and her response was "my children go to school to learn, not to make friends or enjoy themselves, and that is so my children don't grow up to be a cleaner or a handy man."

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

Ring true here, 

Thrown out at 16 by my nut job mother without about 30 quid in a post office account, given a job by my uncle as a hod carrier on a pound and hour gross. There is a lot of detail but the crux is i went for it, worked the long hours,worked the weekends cycled to work  put half down on a terrace house at 18 , kind uncle lent me the other half mainly to stop me buying a motorbike.

38 years of working and we have 8 renters, 3 bathrooms in my house a narrowboat,a watch collection that would buy a house and i only work 14 days a month now.

I went to college on day release,unpaid,went to college on a night,made the most of my earnings and looked after my savings.

There has been a price, no family, didnt settle down till i was 39, missed holidays with the lads and other socials.

The key thing in it all is the first 2 years where i watched the pennies and worked as much as possible, i got in front.I talk to younger end now and they are disinterested in putting  a bit away as they cant see that 50 a week is soon 5k. It pains me and irritates me. Then the cheaky so and so will say its alright for you you got money or cars or plane tickets. I am alright jack, i made it happen

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

I'd say speak for yourself,  there will be many who are happy to live off welfare,  probably following what their parents have done, which is simply wrong. 

But I have a far higher standard of living than my parents did when they were raising us,  and that's always the goal, you want your kids to do better than you.

[Bobba]

Not sure why Bristol prices are in the headlights. When we returned to Bristol we bought our BS7 1930's three bedroom semi in 1975 for £11,000 . Added a two storey extension in the early 80's and a loft conversion  6-7 yrs ago. Agents reckon it is now worth around £800(k). Over the road a 3 bedroom 1930's semi without any modifications and needing an upgrade went this year for £725 (k). Absolutely crazy crazy prices.

Conversely, similar houses to the one we lived in in Chorley (1969-1972) a four bed semi is, today, under £300(k). One could be tempted to use the misquoted Norman Tebbit phrase and tell people "to get on their bike" and go north if the want to buy a home.

The problem is that despite people being physically mobile they are in fact the least mobile factor of production. In my own case, to climb the greasy pole, I've lived and worked in London, Lancashire, Cornwall and Bristol. By 1975 it was our 3rd house in 6 years. But for a host of reasons for those unwilling or unable to move their problem will continue.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Bobba

[JohnfromUK]

42 minutes ago, Bobba said:

The problem is that despite people being physically mobile they are in fact the least mobile factor of production. In my own case, to climb the greasy pole, I've lived and worked in London, Lancashire, Cornwall and Bristol. By 1975 it was our 3rd house in 6 years. But for a host of reasons for those unwilling or unable to move their problem will continue.

What you say is right, but in my case, I wasn't that tempted to climb the greasy pole.  I have 'worked away' at times, but always kept my home at home - so to speak.  I managed to climb the 'local poles' enough to do reasonably well (maybe got lucky?) and have nice house and a bit of land 'at home' (or at least a few 100 yards from where I grew up which is now lived in by a cousin).

Maybe I would have got higher up the pole and made more money by moving around - and maybe I wouldn't, but if I had my time again, I would do much the same.

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

Not so.

If you look at the Ugandan Indians that Idi Amin turfed out on 90 days notice in the 70's most arrived here with the clothes on their back but took advantage of a free education system for their kids and made the sacrifice to work unsociable hours and do the jobs no one else wanted to do in order to make money. As a group they were all extremely successful and their kids are now doctors and surgeons.

More recently we used to employ a Bulgarian cleaner. You have never seen anyone work like her - headphones on and that was her off like the Duracell bunny for 4 hours. She said she left Bulgaria for a better life - she was a cleaner and her husband was an odd job builder type. Both her kids passed the 11+ and went to Grammar school. Her commentary was that the English were lazy and English children grew up lazy. She said that one of her kids was finding it difficult to make friends as school (a Grammar school ranked 14th in the whole Country) and her response was "my children go to school to learn, not to make friends or enjoy themselves, and that is so my children don't grow up to be a cleaner or a handy man."

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

I absolutely disagree. While some British are like that, I know many who work their fingers to the bone and have little to show for it. Your simply repeating globalist propaganda. 

[Wymondley]

Too many have bought into the "lifestyle" of the latest phone, tablet, laptop, big TV, car, designer label clothes etc.

Things that used to be luxuries are now considered essential.

No wonder there's no spare cash left when basic costs go up.

People need to start living within their means.

[Houseplant]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

We as a nation just don't have that steel in us any more and it's because we have a welfare state, free education, free healthcare and we don't know any different; we take it all for granted as an automatic right and as a nation we "lean in to it" to get the most out for the least put in.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

It's true for the entire westernised world. When WW3 comes around (it doesn't seem that unlikely at the moment), I can't see the Twitter generation stepping up. 

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, Wymondley said:

Too many have bought into the "lifestyle" of the latest phone, tablet, laptop, big TV, car, designer label clothes etc.

Things that used to be luxuries are now considered essential.

No wonder there's no spare cash left when basic costs go up.

People need to start living within their means.

Luxury items are simply a distraction. Items like that used to be very expensive but with modern engineering but particularly Chinese manufacturers the relitive cost to earnings is nothing. A man used to be able to support his whole family on his wage while his wife stayed home and did the jobs now done by washing machines ect. These days a man and his partner both working full time can't even put a roof over their heads in many cases. The system is bent and things like the availability of smart phones and computers are a magicians hand trick. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by 12gauge82

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Luxury items are simply a distraction. Items like that used to be very expensive but with modern engineering but particularly Chinese manufacturers the relitive cost to earnings is nothing. A man used to be able to support his whole family on his wage while his wife stayed home and did the jobs now done by washing machines ect. These days a man and his partner both working full time can't even put a roof over their heads in many cases. The system is bent and things like the availability of smart phones and computers are a magicians hand trick. 

I disagree with that as well, most folk can and do put a roof over their heads. But I think a lot of people are in houses that are just too expensive,  they might be struggling living in a detached house in area Z but would be managing fine in a semi in area X.

The luxury items are definitely more affordable now than twenty years ago, but in a lot of cases they'll be getting bought on a card, not saved for or with spare cash.

[Mungler]

14 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I absolutely disagree. While some British are like that, I know many who work their fingers to the bone and have little to show for it. Your simply repeating globalist propaganda. 

 

There are additional factors. Returning to the Ugandan Indian's as well as embracing education and entrepreneurial spirit they had tight family structures (good for a supply of labour and capital through pooled resources), low divorce rates and multi generational living where grandparents would look after children to free up parents to go to work.

From what I can see with my own eyes, if you have parents that actually give a monkeys, and who stay the distance, the children of those people will absolutely have the best start in life.

If you have no family, no wider support structure, no education, no portable skills and no money, that's a difficult hole to climb out of for sure. Indeed, fair play to Rupert for his life journey - he managed it.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Returning to the Ugandan Indian's as well as embracing education and entrepreneurial spirit they had tight family structures (good for a supply of labour and capital through pooled resources), low divorce rates and multi generational living where grandparents would look after children to free up parents to go to work.

From what I can see with my own eyes, if you have parents that actually give a monkeys, and who stay the distance, the children of those people will absolutely have the best start in life.

I think that as a general rule, people from the Indian sub-continent and inclined to be industrious and have entrepreneurial spirit.  A great many, whilst not making headlines, rich lists etc, have small businesses like corner shops, convenience stores, newsagents, chemists and the like.  They work hard and keep long hours - and often many family members are involved.  We are out in the sticks and very rural, but even here, the majority of such shops are run by Indians, and they do a grand job of it.

[team tractor]

13 hours ago, Wymondley said:

Too many have bought into the "lifestyle" of the latest phone, tablet, laptop, big TV, car, designer label clothes etc.

Things that used to be luxuries are now considered essential.

No wonder there's no spare cash left when basic costs go up.

People need to start living within their means.

Some things like the latest phone and laptop are needed for work, emails,apps etc but what I mean is within a few years old .

fags , booze and takeaways are definitely a luxury tho . 
 

My neighbour has an Uber eats every night . It’s £4 a delivery tho so they’re literally burning money when we live in the town too. They need to stop being lazy . 
 

my mrs shops in primark 😁. We don’t have fancy ****.

my ex girlfriend ( last years😂) spent £600 plus on each child at Xmas . Then moaned she’s skint . 

[Mice!]

30 minutes ago, team tractor said:

My neighbour has an Uber eats every night . It’s £4 a delivery tho so they’re literally burning money when we live in the town too. They need to stop being lazy . 
 

my mrs shops in primark 😁. We don’t have fancy ****.

my ex girlfriend ( last years😂) spent £600 plus on each child at Xmas . Then moaned she’s skint . 

That sounds like half the lads in work 😅

[udderlyoffroad]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

I disagree with that as well, most folk can and do put a roof over their heads. But I think a lot of people are in houses that are just too expensive,  they might be struggling living in a detached house in area Z but would be managing fine in a semi in area X.

Downsizing is rarely an easy option for those living month-to-month.  You can easily need to *find* several grand upfront just in order to move (solicitor's fees, mortgage arrangement, stamp duty) in order to be able to save a couple of hundred a month in mortgage payments.

Often times you're better off cutting your cloth accordingly staying put.

[Mungler]

16 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Downsizing is rarely an easy option for those living month-to-month.  You can easily need to *find* several grand upfront just in order to move (solicitor's fees, mortgage arrangement, stamp duty) in order to be able to save a couple of hundred a month in mortgage payments.

Often times you're better off cutting your cloth accordingly staying put.

 

Renting out the spare room and making sure all adult occupiers are chipping in is the place to start - the amount of times we see idle 20 something year olds at home, either not in higher education and playing the X box all day or at work and using the place like a free hotel.

Similarly, if you were Indian or Jewish you would see one of the sets of elderly parents selling up and chipping in to come and live with the kids and grand kids. One of the guys who works for me - husband and wife both professionals and in high paying jobs both in full time employment, kids at home with grandparents in a million pound house (with all 3 generations living there). If you are culturally attuned to this it makes so much sense in terms of what everyone gets out of it financially and emotionally.

So many of the problems people face are a direct / indirect result of the failure of the family structure; discuss.

 

[Boybrit]

I wonder why but all property near London is so unaffordable they will commute now over an hour by train. The properties in Dover are still held at 200K for a terraced 2-3 bed with a short walk to the station and only a 1 hour fast train into London, but we are not seeing DLTs here even though they have invaded Deal/Walmer big time. The Londoners could turn this s h  ithole around if they came here in their droves. (hope that has not broken the unwritten law).

[Sweet11-87]

current average way of life isnt sustanible.  the divide between haves and have nots is getting to wide for it to function

further education is the norm now so you either incure debt before youre 20 or you enter the workplace competing with CVs full fo degrees and deplomas

need 2 full time wages to rent  and cover bills, 15 years of scrapage schemes and lease schemes mean bangers for a few hundred quid arnt a thing anymore, so  pcp and loans are more common place. huge levels of borrowing early on due to nessasity means  high intrest rates only when looking for mortages on a market that is mostly privatised and where demand is high and prices get inflated.

1,1 million on on the housing list and somthing like 7000 social houses built in 2022

Edited November 25, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[Mungler]

42 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

current average way of life isnt sustanible.  the divide between haves and have nots is getting to wide for it to function

further education is the norm now so you either incure debt before youre 20 or you enter the workplace competing with CVs full fo degrees and deplomas

need 2 full time wages to rent  and cover bills, 15 years of scrapage schemes and lease schemes mean bangers for a few hundred quid arnt a thing anymore, so  pcp and loans are more common place. huge levels of borrowing early on due to nessasity means  high intrest rates only when looking for mortages on a market that is mostly privatised and where demand is high and prices get inflated.

1,1 million on on the housing list and somthing like 7000 social houses built in 2022

 

Not so:

 

1. further education (full time education) is not now the norm. There's a swing to send 16-18 year olds down the apprenticeship route. But think about it - take the risk and the debt, do a degree like law / accountancy and not basket weaving or sociology, and you will be playing the game well and will be rewarded provided you then chose a sensible career path e.g. if you get a law degree go and work for a law firm and not CAB.  And what's the alternative? Moaning that unskilled, unqualified people can't get a good job - that's always been the way and will stay that way unless those people go and get a trade or skilled up somehow, and that means more more education albeit probably on the job.

2. 2 full time wages to cover the rent, depending on where you live, quite possibly. Like you'd need 2 full time wages to cover a mortgage. House prices are what they are. If the government builds a load of social housing, that cost will be passed on - the government has not money of its own, only what it collects in from everyone in tax.

3. Go onto Autotrader and put in +"1 owner" and there's a polo with 42k miles, 1 owner and full service history from a dealer for £650. There's plenty more round this £ figure too. Cheapest brand new PCP is a 4 door Corsa for £1000 down and £150 a month - that's cheap motoring for 22 plate car.

4. BoE base rate is 3% that is still historically ridiculously low. We are nowhere near high interest rates right now. They are coming over the horizon, but right now cannot be considered to be "high" interest rates.

5. There are always people on the housing list. Again, if you want your god or your government to solve your problems, you're in for a nasty shock.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mungler

[Penelope]

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Not so:

 

1. further education (full time education) is not now the norm. There's a swing to send 16-18 year olds down the apprenticeship route. But think about it - take the risk and the debt, do a degree like law / accountancy and not basket weaving or sociology, and you will be playing the game well and will be rewarded provided you then chose a sensible career path e.g. if you get a law degree go and work for a law firm and not CAB.  And what's the alternative? Moaning that unskilled, unqualified people can't get a good job - that's always been the way and will stay that way unless those people go and get a trade or skilled up somehow, and that means more more education albeit probably on the job.

2. 2 full time wages to cover the rent, depending on where you live, quite possibly. Like you'd need 2 full time wages to cover a mortgage. House prices are what they are. If the government builds a load of social housing, that cost will be passed on - the government has not money of its own, only what it collects in from everyone in tax.

3. Go onto Autotrader and put in +"1 owner" and there's a polo with 42k miles, 1 owner and full service history from a dealer for £650. There's plenty more round this £ figure too. Cheapest brand new PCP is a 4 door Corsa for £1000 down and £150 a month - that's cheap motoring for 22 plate car.

4. BoE base rate is 3% that is still historically ridiculously low. We are nowhere near high interest rates right now. They are coming over the horizon, but right now cannot be considered to be "high" interest rates.

5. There are always people on the housing list. Again, if you want your god or your government to solve your problems, you're in for a nasty shock.

 

 

Relevant, sort of, but interesting none the less.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2022/11/25/somewheres-anywheres/ 

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, Boybrit said:

2 hours ago, Boybrit said:

I wonder why but all property near London is so unaffordable they will commute now over an hour by train. The properties in Dover are still held at 200K for a terraced 2-3 bed with a short walk to the station and only a 1 hour fast train into London, but we are not seeing DLTs here even though they have invaded Deal/Walmer big time. The Londoners could turn this s h  ithole around if they came here in their droves. (hope that has not broken the unwritten law).

Tut tut 

Circumventing the swear filter, minus 20 points Gryffindor…

For living in Dover. Plus 200 points to Gryffindor…

Edited November 25, 2022 by Jaymo

[Sweet11-87]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

Not so:

 

1. further education (full time education) is not now the norm. There's a swing to send 16-18 year olds down the apprenticeship route. But think about it - take the risk and the debt, do a degree like law / accountancy and not basket weaving or sociology, and you will be playing the game well and will be rewarded provided you then chose a sensible career path e.g. if you get a law degree go and work for a law firm and not CAB.  And what's the alternative? Moaning that unskilled, unqualified people can't get a good job - that's always been the way and will stay that way unless those people go and get a trade or skilled up somehow, and that means more more education albeit probably on the job.

2. 2 full time wages to cover the rent, depending on where you live, quite possibly. Like you'd need 2 full time wages to cover a mortgage. House prices are what they are. If the government builds a load of social housing, that cost will be passed on - the government has not money of its own, only what it collects in from everyone in tax.

3. Go onto Autotrader and put in +"1 owner" and there's a polo with 42k miles, 1 owner and full service history from a dealer for £650. There's plenty more round this £ figure too. Cheapest brand new PCP is a 4 door Corsa for £1000 down and £150 a month - that's cheap motoring for 22 plate car.

4. BoE base rate is 3% that is still historically ridiculously low. We are nowhere near high interest rates right now. They are coming over the horizon, but right now cannot be considered to be "high" interest rates.

5. There are always people on the housing list. Again, if you want your god or your government to solve your problems, you're in for a nasty shock.

 

 

i see your point but in reality its not the case. if everyone leaves school and goes to study law or accountancy the avalibility of jobs  just isnt their when they graduate most go into standard work but with a degree on the C.V. 57% of the people get a qualification from higher education, thats removing those who go and dont pass. As for motoring youve hit my point  entry level 1000 down and 150 a month looks like a good deal but it isnt a banger its probably over 5 years its a 10k car... or over 3 and give it back in which case its 6 and a half grand and nowt to show for it. back when i passed me and my mates cars were taxed and MOTd and probably didnt cost 1000 between us and im not that old it was a 51 plate

Edited November 25, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Downsizing is rarely an easy option for those living month-to-month.  You can easily need to *find* several grand upfront just in order to move (solicitor's fees, mortgage arrangement, stamp duty) in order to be able to save a couple of hundred a month in mortgage payments.

Often times you're better off cutting your cloth accordingly staying put.

I wasn't meaning they should move, that would obviously involve paying out lots of cash, unless you were say moving from South to North and relocating. 

I meant they shouldn't have over stretched to begin with, but the lower rates over recent years means people have looked at bigger houses in nicer areas.