Do you trust BASC

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, merseamal said:

nd regarding those that think BASC should have outright opposed it all, how authoritative would they have looked trying to tell scientists and MPs that lead isn’t toxic

You mean like they did (successfully)  8 years ago ?

[harkom]

23 hours ago, merseamal said:

Where did you get that from?

Personal experience. Over a considerable number of years.

And your knowledge of this is...???

[Scully]

53 minutes ago, merseamal said:

Not really, everyone knows lead is toxic and that there’s alternative shot out there almost everyone I’ve spoken to is more than happy to move away from lead shot.

 

and regarding those that think BASC should have outright opposed it all, how authoritative would they have looked trying to tell scientists and MPs that lead isn’t toxic? 

‘Not really’ what?
I’m not sure any of the above is relevant to my post at all, but are you implying you didn’t fill in the consultation? I know many who didn’t because ‘it’s going to happen anyhow’. I know no one who is ‘happy’ ( nevermind ‘more than’ ) to move away from lead; they will grudgingly accept the move, but no one is happy about it. 

No one has denied lead is toxic, and I myself have asked on here what they thought the response would have been if BASC had said they weren’t going to comply. I can’t recall anyone answering. 
Perhaps if BASC members were as vociferous in their defence of shooting as those ex BASC members are, we may start to get somewhere. 
BASC admittedly can’t do the work it does ( lobbying etc ) without members funds, but any club is only as good as it’s members, and frankly BASC members have repeatedly shown themselves to be apathetic, lazy and indifferent. 
I will gladly join ANY organisation which is willing to put its money where its mouth is and effectively challenge licensing indifference…… there are currently three people in my village who can’t apply for tickets as their licensing authority has simply decided they will issue no grants for the foreseeable! How can that be allowed?

Funding some Sea Eagle project or whatever is fine for hearts and minds, but there are countless issues which affect shooters on a daily basis; none of which seem to get addressed. In answer to the GP issue, the best BASC can do is supply a pet GP for their members! 
They’re more than happy to make decisions which affect ALL shooters, without consultation, but become a closed shop again when it suits. 🙂

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

 almost everyone I’ve spoken to is more than happy to move away from lead shot.

 

This I find hard to believe, everyone I know would disagree with that. 

[Centrepin]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

This I find hard to believe, everyone I know would disagree with that. 

Absolutely,  I know of no one wanting to move to "other" shot. 

[wymberley]

In one sense I find this thread even funnier than Harnser's Bunker. Long may it continue as it distracts those who would ban shooting - not just lead -  away from some legislation that would annihilate our sport at a stroke making any lead ban seem like a minor inconvenience.

Edited March 23, 2023 by wymberley

[Fellside]

10 hours ago, Gordon R said:

You are rude, patronising and I cannot accept that it was unintentional.

Everyone who doesn’t agree with you is either ‘rude’ or ‘patronising’…..?! Really, come on Gordon. The really strange thing is, that if we all met on a shoot day or wherever, we would all have our various opinions, but would most likely get on well having one greater thing in common: a passion for shooting. 

On the wider subject. One of the main problems which makes this whole discussion utterly futile, is that two enthusiastic and opposing opinions are at loggerheads. The ‘antibascs’ shall we call them, are engaged in a hate campaign, and appear to be attacking with any angle they can find (false or otherwise). The route cause of this vociferous attack appears to be blame culture - i.e the belief that BASC (and only BASC) are responsible for removing lead ammunition from our way of life. Neither of these theories are correct of course - as 1) we are still using lead and 2) BASC are not solely responsible for a suggested phase out. Against all the financial figures supplied, to still insist upon an itemised receipt for every threat fought by the fund, (right down to a second class stamp which may / may not have been used for someone’s mother’s birthday card…?!) is clearly beyond rational pursuit now. A much greater magnitude of threat, is the insidious gradual creep of politics and society towards an anti firearms culture - and the presumption that all firearms (licensed or otherwise) must be tarred with the same brush. I think Scully raises a vital point, in that the main enemy of our community is apathy. That is to say, so few licence holders responding to the HSE questionnaire or writing to MPs etc - in other words getting involved. 

After observing this thread and taking part in some of it, I have come to the conclusion that we are ‘fiddling while Rome burns’. The real threats are elsewhere. In the big picture, the only tangible outcome from this ugly noise, is points scored by those who appose our lifestyle, in terms of the own goals provided. If you need a parallel example, look towards Scotland and the current SNP debacle. 

I don’t expect everyone to suddenly play nicely. I think that’s asking too much after certain contributors have become heavily invested in their opinions. It doesn’t help that the ‘antibascs’ have become emboldened by a certain PW moderator’s bias. He is entitled to his opinion of course, but it certainly fanned the flames. However, it would serve our wider purpose for us all to just stop and think for a while. Is this the dreadful stink what either the antibascs (or indeed the bascs) want to emanate from our community? I am certain that those who oppose or even hate BASC will be typing furiously already, as they see me as wearing the opposite team’s colours - and that’s a shame. Those individuals must know by now, that I’m not phased by being typed at ….. 😁, but I hope some may view my comments more as a voice of concern for the future our (OUR) community. 

[Rewulf]

46 minutes ago, Fellside said:

On the wider subject. One of the main problems which makes this whole discussion utterly futile, is that two enthusiastic and opposing opinions are at loggerheads.

Thread started by Blazer asking do you trust BASC , due to the fact that Swifty got an honourary membership.
Rightly or wrongly , yes he did do a lot for BASC and shooting, but he also headed up LAG , who were doing exactly what the HSE are doing now.
I think his honour was ill judged, I just dont see why they did it?
But thats just MY opinion.
What happened was , this comment was attacked in quite an extreme way , 'How dare they say such things !?'

I believe this set the tone for further conflict.

46 minutes ago, Fellside said:

The ‘antibascs’ shall we call them, are engaged in a hate campaign, and appear to be attacking with any angle they can find (false or otherwise).

I am not anti BASC , and the  only people using the word 'hate' are those defending BASC.
I think BASC needs reform, big reform , it needs to be more democratic, and though Im sure they all work hard, spending some £6 million a year on salaries (half the subscription budget) for  the 150 staff is bloated and excessive.
Again , my opinion.

47 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Against all the financial figures supplied, to still insist upon an itemised receipt for every threat fought by the fund, (right down to a second class stamp which may / may not have been used for someone’s mother’s birthday card…?!) is clearly beyond rational pursuit now.

For starters , I never 'insisted' on any such thing, rough figures of where BASC spent what on which , would have been more than sufficient, so dont make stories up for what I asked for.

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect the response I got from both Conor , and the pro BASC lobby.
I truly expected to just get the answer, Conor could have called accounts , got some rough figures, and put me, and PW  right.
Instead we turned 'Do you trust BASC' into 'Lets insult Rewulf, and get this shut down pronto'
I was , and still am , flabbergasted at the vitriol, coupled with misdirection , and eventually a flat refusal to answer the VALID question.
Its an embarrassment , and people will draw their own conclusions on why its not possible to get a straight answer.

There is indeed a fight coming, and if we are looking for leaders, I think we need to know who is cut out for the fight, and those who are going to cut and run, or surrender.
BASC are logistically, and financially in the best position, the problem is , they havent fought a battle since LAG days, in fact , theyve surrendered more times.
Will they fight this time ?

[Fellside]

21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thread started by Blazer asking do you trust BASC , due to the fact that Swifty got an honourary membership.
Rightly or wrongly , yes he did do a lot for BASC and shooting, but he also headed up LAG , who were doing exactly what the HSE are doing now.
I think his honour was ill judged, I just dont see why they did it?
But thats just MY opinion.
What happened was , this comment was attacked in quite an extreme way , 'How dare they say such things !?'

I believe this set the tone for further conflict.

I am not anti BASC , and the  only people using the word 'hate' are those defending BASC.
I think BASC needs reform, big reform , it needs to be more democratic, and though Im sure they all work hard, spending some £6 million a year on salaries (half the subscription budget) for  the 150 staff is bloated and excessive.
Again , my opinion.

For starters , I never 'insisted' on any such thing, rough figures of where BASC spent what on which , would have been more than sufficient, so dont make stories up for what I asked for.

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect the response I got from both Conor , and the pro BASC lobby.
I truly expected to just get the answer, Conor could have called accounts , got some rough figures, and put me, and PW  right.
Instead we turned 'Do you trust BASC' into 'Lets insult Rewulf, and get this shut down pronto'
I was , and still am , flabbergasted at the vitriol, coupled with misdirection , and eventually a flat refusal to answer the VALID question.
Its an embarrassment , and people will draw their own conclusions on why its not possible to get a straight answer.

There is indeed a fight coming, and if we are looking for leaders, I think we need to know who is cut out for the fight, and those who are going to cut and run, or surrender.
BASC are logistically, and financially in the best position, the problem is , they havent fought a battle since LAG days, in fact , theyve surrendered more times.
Will they fight this time ?

Fair enough Rewulf. You are entitled to your free opinion (and that’s something none of us should take for granted). I may disagree with you at times, but it is never meant to offend, and I apologise if I have inadvertently done so. I would still urge caution however - to all those who have become deeply embedded in this issue. Pull back and take a helicopter view of the whole big picture. How does it look? Equally there are much more important matters to address. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 It doesn’t help that the ‘antibascs’ have become emboldened by a certain PW moderator’s bias. He is entitled to his opinion of course, but it certainly fanned the flames. 

That is just rubbish. If a Mod has an opinion they are fanning the flames?????????? 

You say that everyone who doesn't agree with me is either ‘rude’ or ‘patronising’ - really? I have disagreed with Rewulf many, many times, but he has been given baseless stick, as have I and others. Our "crime" - asking posters to back up what appear to be simplistic statements or asking them to desist brow beating us into not questioning BASC. 

Perhaps you need to step back, re-read the anti-Rewulf posts. They don't make pleasant reading.

 

[Fellside]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

That is just rubbish. If a Mod has an opinion they are fanning the flames?????????? 

You say that everyone who doesn't agree with me is either ‘rude’ or ‘patronising’ - really? I have disagreed with Rewulf many, many times, but he has been given baseless stick, as have I and others. Our "crime" - asking posters to back up what appear to be simplistic statements or asking them to desist brow beating us into not questioning BASC. 

Perhaps you need to step back, re-read the anti-Rewulf posts. They don't make pleasant reading.

 

Yes - rubbish, rude and patronising you say.

Well, thanks for taking a look at the big picture ….😁. 

Don’t take it all too personally Gordon. I’m sure we all have much more in common than you think. 

[welsh1]

2 hours ago, Fellside said:

 

I don’t expect everyone to suddenly play nicely. I think that’s asking too much after certain contributors have become heavily invested in their opinions. It doesn’t help that the ‘antibascs’ have become emboldened by a certain PW moderator’s bias. He is entitled to his opinion of course, but it certainly fanned the flames. However, it would serve our wider purpose for us all to just stop and think for a while. Is this the dreadful stink what either the antibascs (or indeed the bascs) want to emanate from our community? I am certain that those who oppose or even hate BASC will be typing furiously already, as they see me as wearing the opposite team’s colours - and that’s a shame. Those individuals must know by now, that I’m not phased by being typed at ….. 😁, but I hope some may view my comments more as a voice of concern for the future our (OUR) community. 

If this is directed at me then you are mistaken.
You won't have noticed in the background that i have had people from both sides of the argument complain against the other, i have looked at the complaints and let the conversation continue.
I have had a long conversation by pm with one member and stated that all parties are welcome to post on the forum, my job is to moderate if people step over the agreed rules (some posts have been removed because they did).

I will be fair to both sides in any discussion on this forum, and i am entitled to give my personal opinion on any discussion taking place.

[Fellside]

35 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

and i am entitled to give my personal opinion on any discussion taking place.

I know - I have already acknowledged this. I noted the effect your contribution made, rather than suggest you shouldn’t have one. 
 

 

[welsh1]

44 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I know - I have already acknowledged this. I noted the effect your contribution made, rather than suggest you shouldn’t have one. 
 

 

[grahamch]

Please will a moderator close this thread its becoming pointless and boring

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Please will a moderator close this thread its becoming pointless and boring

Look on the bright side - it’s good for numbers and add’ revenue……😁. There’s alway a positive. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Please will a moderator close this thread its becoming pointless and boring

You want it closed because YOU think its pointless and boring,

I think there are many more points to cover yet.

 

[Dave-G]

12 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Please will a moderator close this thread its becoming pointless and boring

Nobody is forcing you to read it, but there are several members inputting 

And several watching the thread if you look to the bottom of the page a few times.

[Scully]

57 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Please will a moderator close this thread its becoming pointless and boring

Just don’t read it! 🤷‍♂️

[harkom]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I think BASC needs reform, big reform , it needs to be more democratic,

The  good people who previously put themselves up for election with a manifesto slogan of "reform" at BSAC - either did  not get elected or those who did were quickly frozen out by the incumbents.

Oh ye of short memories......

[Gas seal]

Not using lead ammunition is up to the individual shooters, (today) ,the same as not shooting woodcock until December. There are other things happening that will effect shooters and shooting organisations . Firearms laws, sssi sites, the game laws and shooting seasons chances are they will be  updated.

There’s a lot of laws to do with shooting , wildlife acts ,and firearms laws. Some laws are well over one hundred years old . Someone said when were shooters ever united, I don’t think they ever will be united. How many shooters looked at the old general license, or look at the new one before using it to see if has been updated. How many look at the 1954 pest act before shooting rabbits to see if they are allowed to. Shooting organisations and individual shooters will be busy this year. A lot of things have been taken for granted for a long time and a lot will change for all of us. 

[Newbie to this]

5 hours ago, welsh1 said:

I will be fair to both sides in any discussion on this forum, and i am entitled to give my personal opinion on any discussion taking place.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Not using lead ammunition is up to the individual shooters, (today) ,the same as not shooting woodcock until December. There are other things happening that will effect shooters and shooting organisations . Firearms laws, sssi sites, the game laws and shooting seasons chances are they will be  updated.

There’s a lot of laws to do with shooting , wildlife acts ,and firearms laws. Some laws are well over one hundred years old . Someone said when were shooters ever united, I don’t think they ever will be united. How many shooters looked at the old general license, or look at the new one before using it to see if has been updated. How many look at the 1954 pest act before shooting rabbits to see if they are allowed to. Shooting organisations and individual shooters will be busy this year. A lot of things have been taken for granted for a long time and a lot will change for all of us. 

I must admit that the old G L meant nothing to me when it came to shooting Pigeons and I very much doubt that I was the only one in the ( Meant Nothing Club ), I had word of mouth and even written permissions and I thought that was all needed , you are right , things will change and not always for the better .

[merseamal]

[jall25]

We are not even in the BASC as i think i have said before - but i love this life and will happily engage with anyone of a similar mindset - and i have found many of these people now within BASC 

 

During Covid BASC came out and helped to ensure we were all safe

I host several events for our shoot and BASC have always been supportive - the latest was a clay shoot this weekend.

BASC attended spoke to a mildly sceptical audience about steel shot and then just sort of let us loose with several hundred cartridges and clays

Most if not all believed the shot broke the clay as well as - if not better than lead.

I admit clay and live quarry are worlds apart but BASC has asked if they can come on one of our shoot days and let us trial steel 

They are perhaps only as good as we are with them if that makes sense 

Give them a chance and reap the rewards of a stronger network would be my advice