Been threatened with having my dog shot

[Agriv8]

Just had a run in with a farmers daughter on a walk over the tops

walk-in the spaniel over the moors on a public foot path that runs down into some fields no livestock about in the fields the path went through or fields to the left and right ( and all are usually been grown for first silage cut this time of year ) the spaniel had been cooped up all day so she was working left and right 20/30 feet and about 10 in front. There were some good smells about so good exercise and training!

got a bit closer and it became clear she was not happy so got to about 50/60 foot away and I whistles the dog In And put her on her leads ( she had an old lab  and ferret on a lead !) . 
 

her opening gambit was that her dad would have shot the dog if he was about!

to which i replied is your dad allowed to shoot a dog  if there are no livestock about ?

Her reply there are sheep in the next but one field ( a good 300 400 yards away ) so I tried to joke that I could see that - but I was more worried about my dog and the chickens in the same field !

She complained that my dog could worry the yews in lamb At which point I reiterated that it there were any livestock in the vacinity she would have been called in and put on a lead ! 
 

I added the dog  regularly works around sheep and lambs at the farm  I have permission to do pest control over but she still seemed to have a bee in her bonnet about dogs on leads on footpaths!

so decided to walk on and get home but it had me thinking about what’s the criteria that allows a farmer to shoot a dog ? Maybe not a clear cut as I thought 

Agriv8

[eggy74]

Perhaps they have recently had an incident and lost animals. 

then again could just be rag week

[Agriv8]

Totally sympathetic if they have lost lambs to inconsiderate dog owners- and maybe it was a similar looking spaniel I trust my dog arround livestock but will still place her on a lead .

spoilt a fantastic evening walk with my mutt really 

Agriv8

[Spr1985]

Or it could just be that the dog was not on the public footpath as agriv8 said himself, it was working 20/30ft either side and therefore in private land without permission (trespassing) working the dog on private land you don’t have permission  to be on again trespassing. We as shooters and country folk should know better than anyone that you shouldn’t be on land where your not meant to be. Look at how many posts on this very forum mention  dog walkers off the footpath etc. 

@Agriv8 please don’t take my post as a dig at you, it’s not the case I’m just pointing out that the situation is more complex than a farmers daughter with the hump.  you clearly demonstrate that you have control of your dog and are responsible around livestock etc but it doesn’t change the fact that the dog was not on the path. 

[Ultrastu]

There is no obligation  for your dog to be on a lead only under close control .ie if you can call your dog to heal quickly you can show its under control  .the exception  is a specific bylaw  when dogs must be on a lead .this is usually somewhere like a playing field (football ground .play park etc .) These can be found on your local council website on the interactive map .

A farmer who destroys your property (your dog ) while no laws are being broken  by you. will have a lots of legal explaining  to do.and could face jail time. 

[ditchman]

wrong week 

[Ultrastu]

I did see a sign last week on a gate clearly from a farmer saying a dog ?? Had recently killed 4 of his sheep in one go .

Sounds a bit excessive to be able to kill 4 at a time .though possible I suppose .

I understand  how annoyed a farmer could get .

[Agriv8]

10 minutes ago, Spr1985 said:

Or it could just be that the dog was not on the public footpath as agriv8 said himself, it was working 20/30ft either side and therefore in private land without permission (trespassing) working the dog on private land you don’t have permission  to be on again trespassing. We as shooters and country folk should know better than anyone that you shouldn’t be on land where your not meant to be. Look at how many posts on this very forum mention  dog walkers off the footpath etc. 

@Agriv8 please don’t take my post as a dig at you, it’s not the case I’m just pointing out that the situation is more complex than a farmers daughter with the hump.  you clearly demonstrate that you have control of your dog and are responsible around livestock etc but it doesn’t change the fact that the dog was not on the path. 

Happy for open discussion no hump here. I get where you are coming from and yes the land my dog was on was private land and yes I was taking the wee a bit .Obviously next time she will be on a lead.

But can a dog be shot if there is no livestock I guess is the question?

Agriv8

13 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I did see a sign last week on a gate clearly from a farmer saying a dog ?? Had recently killed 4 of his sheep in one go .

Sounds a bit excessive to be able to kill 4 at a time .though possible I suppose .

I understand  how annoyed a farmer could get .

Again stu if there had been a sign asking for dogs to be on a lead she would have been ! Even sheep in next field she would have been on a lead 

Agriv8

 

 

[Stonepark]

10 minutes ago, Agriv8 said:

 

But can a dog be shot if there is no livestock I guess is the question?

 

 

 

Short answer is no, livestock need to be in distress at a dog off the lead, being chased or attacked or having been chased or attacked.

The presence of a dog on a lead (or in the next field)  is not counted as stressful.

Farmers use their sheep dogs to round up sheep all the time (including when with lambs and heavily pregnant), the sheep are stressed by this activity but the farmer ignores it as neccessary to manage the flock, and the stress effects of your dog several fields away or on a lead are nothing near this level.

 

 

[Spr1985]

I would hazard a guess at no livestock present and a distances to livestock being a  rather large can of worms, one which has unlikely to have been opened in a court of law.
The type of fences separating the fields and wether a dog that is not under control can easily pass under/over it negates distance in my opinion. A dog that goes rogue and chooses to ignore you will cover three fields before you will cover one. 
 

which of course then begs the question you have asked -  can a farmer shoot a dog where no livestock is present…….who decides what “present” is? 
 

edit to say, I’m playing devils advocate because I’m intrigued by the correct and legal answer to this question myself. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Spr1985

[jall25]

If you want the honest answer - having your dog off the lead during bird nesting and mammal breeding season as a countryman is totally out of order.

Would i ever advocate shooting a dog - No - possibly never - but to have your dog off the lead at this sensitive time of year is irresponsible.

 

Spoken as a landowner and a chap with 3 crazy cockers - that stop in or on the lead for these few sensitive months

 

Good on the daughter for caring 

[ditchman]

38 minutes ago, jall25 said:

If you want the honest answer - having your dog off the lead during bird nesting and mammal breeding season as a countryman is totally out of order.

Would i ever advocate shooting a dog - No - possibly never - but to have your dog off the lead at this sensitive time of year is irresponsible.

 

Spoken as a landowner and a chap with 3 crazy cockers - that stop in or on the lead for these few sensitive months

 

Good on the daughter for caring 

i surgest the daughter could have used more tact....instead of blurting out that the dog will be shot as her opening gambit..........perhaps a firm conversation with knowledge of the law..............

the woman put herself in danger by speaking that way...........folk are very touchy about their dogs

[fern01]

Where I walk the dog and in fact many other people there is the usual (fairly new) fence with barbed wire on the top between the sheep and the track where many dogs are walked.

There is even a dog bin at the entrance

The farmer seems OK with that and there is never a problem except the old curse of people not picking up after their dogs

 

[jall25]

7 hours ago, ditchman said:

i surgest the daughter could have used more tact....instead of blurting out that the dog will be shot as her opening gambit..........perhaps a firm conversation with knowledge of the law..............

the woman put herself in danger by speaking that way...........folk are very touchy about their dogs

 

Yes agreed Ditchy 

It is a matter of common sense / the countryside code and a respect for our wider environment that we should keep dogs on leads at this time 

[scarecrow243]

a farmer in fife lost 16 lambs to dogs being off the leads so you can't blame them for having a go at you or anyone  having their dog off the lead on private land

[scarecrow243]

here is it here https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b00b332f9c4539b5JmltdHM9MTY4MTg2MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yZGQwYTFjNi04YWQwLTY4NjEtMTY2YS1hZWVjOGI5MDY5OTYmaW5zaWQ9NTQwMw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=2dd0a1c6-8ad0-6861-166a-aeec8b906996&psq=farmer+loses+16+lambs+to+dogs+in+fife&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmJjLmNvLnVrL25ld3MvdWstc2NvdGxhbmQtdGF5c2lkZS1jZW50cmFsLTY1MTc2MzcwIzp-OnRleHQ9QSUyMGRldmFzdGF0ZWQlMjBzaGVwaGVyZCUyMGhhcyUyMGlzc3VlZCUyMGFuJTIwYXBwZWFsJTIwdG8sbWFqb3IlMjBmaW5hbmNpYWwlMjBibG93JTIwYW5kJTIwaGFkJTIwJTIydHJhdW1hdGlzZWQlMjIlMjBoaXMlMjBjaGlsZHJlbi4&ntb=1

[Krico woodcock]

11 hours ago, jall25 said:

If you want the honest answer - having your dog off the lead during bird nesting and mammal breeding season as a countryman is totally out of order.

Would i ever advocate shooting a dog - No - possibly never - but to have your dog off the lead at this sensitive time of year is irresponsible.

 

Spoken as a landowner and a chap with 3 crazy cockers - that stop in or on the lead for these few sensitive months

 

Good on the daughter for caring 

        ☝️☝️☝️  This 100%..

[JohnfromUK]

The farmers round here lose sheep and lambs every year from dogs. 

They put notices up asking that owners keep ALL dogs on the lead (it is a public footpath).  Similarly we have notices about ground nesting birds (we have Curlews around) applicable 1st March to 31st July and dogs must be on lead and dogs/people must keep to the path (permissive path, not public right of way in that case). 

This below is from here https://www.barclondon.com/blogs/guides/new-dog-laws-uk-2022;

Livestock Protection

The code highlights the importance of keeping a dog on a lead when walking close to livestock.

It is a legal requirement to keep your dog on a lead when walking on Open Access land (even if there is no livestock on the land at the time of your walk).

The most crucial piece of information here is that under section 9 of the Animals Act 1971 and Protection of Livestock Act 1953, ‘a farmer can shoot a dog that is attacking or chasing livestock. They may not be liable to compensate the dog’s owner.’ 

The Open Access Land is defined here;

https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam

and on dogs on Open Access Land;

You must keep your dog on a lead no more than 2 metres long on open access land:

• between 1 March and 31 July - to protect ground-nesting birds
• at all times around livestock

I sympathise with you because many dogs (no doubt including yours) are just fine around sheep (my previous two were,  but the present one is too young to trust yet) - but there is no doubt that farm animals are attacked every year - so I can see both sides.  Ironically - my local farmers sheepdog is an utter menace and both nips people - and initiates almost every local dog fight!

Edited April 19, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[243deer]

If you feel that everyone has a right to let their dog loose to run about in your garden then I understand why you think you have the right to let your dog run around on private land. 

Under close control in my view is walking to heel on the footpath without a lead when you also have a 100% recall available - how many can say they have 100% recall? Would a judge agree if your dog had caused damage?

I would certainly never shoot a dog unless it was actually attacking livestock, I do not think a judge would see that as reasonable.

As well as the bird nesting season, lambing season there should also be consideration for late birth deer and when they arrive in the Autumn, weary woodcock, maybe only 5 paces off the footpath that goes through the wood. 

If you let your dog off the footpath on private land that you do not have permission to be on with your dog I think you are in the wrong but most dog owners do not consider that they are.

[Bigbob]

If you phone the police and said that her opener was my dad would have shot your dog , My guess is they would be visiting him to talk about taking his guns away might be worth phoning them so they teach her some manners 

[London Best]

A farmer once asked a friend of mine, who shot deer on his land, if he would shoot two alsatians that were harassing his sheep regularly, with no apparent owner. My friend’s FAC only covered deer and foxes, so he rang his firearm licensing manager and got him to agree a variation to cover dogs worrying livestock. He took his certificate in personally and the variation was done whilst he waited. The dogs were shot next day.

[holloway]

14 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

If you phone the police and said that her opener was my dad would have shot your dog , My guess is they would be visiting him to talk about taking his guns away might be worth phoning them so they teach her some manners 

Really ? When you’ve just admitted  that your dogs are running all over someone else’s land ,and bearing in mind the farmer is probably sick of trying to protect his livestock ,if his dog is doing it probably a constant irritation from many over dog owners for the farmer to deal with .

[Agriv8]

Ok as the op here I see I have opened a can of worms but it’s all good healthy debate and the info above is interesting info and been taken on board by me - 
 

A little update - 

Ground nesting birds were not present again if they were she would have been on a lead . There are kerlew and lapwings both on higher scrub leading to the moors, there is not enough grass cover for any ground nesters on this field where she was !

Where I beat we often work dogs mine included through around sheep who are grazing. They tend to just move out of the way !

I have talked to my farmer mate ( who I pest control for ) and the farmers field I walked through is known for being a bit of a character ! - he doubts he actually owns  a gun ! As tends to shoot from the mouth! My farmer mate belief is that shooting a dog on his land he would require at least one further witness of the dog in livestock causing a nuisance and evidence of an attack . 

I take on board that my dog was trespassing and it’s my fault for not having her at heal / on s lead. 
 

Let’s keep it friendly while chewing over our thoughts

Agriv8

[clangerman]

what we have here is a fool who despite seeing the dog was not doing any harm mouthed of needless threats that game ends in picking the wrong person who returns tribe in tow and batters you senseless! 

[jall25]

1 hour ago, Agriv8 said:

Ok as the op here I see I have opened a can of worms but it’s all good healthy debate and the info above is interesting info and been taken on board by me - 
 

A little update - 

Ground nesting birds were not present again if they were she would have been on a lead . There are kerlew and lapwings both on higher scrub leading to the moors, there is not enough grass cover for any ground nesters on this field where she was !

Where I beat we often work dogs mine included through around sheep who are grazing. They tend to just move out of the way !

I have talked to my farmer mate ( who I pest control for ) and the farmers field I walked through is known for being a bit of a character ! - he doubts he actually owns  a gun ! As tends to shoot from the mouth! My farmer mate belief is that shooting a dog on his land he would require at least one further witness of the dog in livestock causing a nuisance and evidence of an attack . 

I take on board that my dog was trespassing and it’s my fault for not having her at heal / on s lead. 
 

Let’s keep it friendly while chewing over our thoughts

Agriv8

 

The thing with many ground nesters is they actually dont want much cover - they use camoflauge to evade predators 

You would have little idea they were there.

You may disturb their parents and this leaves the chicks / eggs - open to predation 

 

As i say - i would never threaten to shoot a dog over it - but i do engage with several walkers each week / day advising of the above - usually politely !