HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched

[Weihrauch17]

39 minutes ago, wymberley said:

This has already been mentioned more than once and I fancy is not a good argument. Just need to be careful what we wish for as there is one equivalent which would decimate UK shooting at a stroke. 

More of a blatant fact than an argument, the wheels are in motion and will not stop.

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, yickdaz said:

What do you think their aim is ?

 

To preserve the shooting and corporate interests of BASC,  anyone else can be thrown under the bus? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It's also interesting how, within 1 month of the announcement, the HSE put forward it's proposals and consultation plans, upon asking if BASC et al had any idea this was coming, they stated categorically they did not. 

It's my belief there was collusion in some way, obviously it can never be proven, but it calls into question the aims and trustworthiness of our shooting orgs. 

The announcement you refer to is, I presume, the one made by nine organisations in February 2020? The UK government announced in March 2021 that it was tasking HSE to review lead in ammunition.

[8 shot]

Just a point, slightly of topic but maybe relevant, British Agriculture is now at a point of no return due to Voluntary regulations set by the very organisation there to support and protect them. A couple of the bigger ones may not exist in a year or two if they don't pull something out the fire. Just a thought.....

[Old farrier]

Just a thought 

if the HSE decides to ban lead shot and then the act of parliament makes it law 

will the proof laws Need to be changed as technically all guns only proof for lead will be obsolete until proof for steel 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

What a bloody mess.   

[Centrepin]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

What a bloody mess.   

Slowly killing the gun trade, cartridge manufacturers and eventually shooting for those without a huge disposable income 

[Scully]

33 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

What a bloody mess.   

Couldn’t agree more. 
It annoys me beyond all rationale really, and OH can’t understand why. 
She knows how passionate I am about my shooting, but it’s difficult to relate to someone who doesn’t do it. 
Shooting and guns are my way of life; they aren’t a hobby, they are ingrained in my way of life and have been ever since I was old enough to carry one. 
I absolutely resent, detest and despise those who interfere with my way of life.

I don’t interfere in theirs, the least they can do is return the courtesy. 

[London Best]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

Couldn’t agree more. 
It annoys me beyond all rationale really, and OH can’t understand why. 
She knows how passionate I am about my shooting, but it’s difficult to relate to someone who doesn’t do it. 
Shooting and guns are my way of life; they aren’t a hobby, they are ingrained in my way of life and have been ever since I was old enough to carry one. 
I absolutely resent, detest and despise those who interfere with my way of life.

I don’t interfere in theirs, the least they can do is return the courtesy. 

Plus 1.

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Couldn’t agree more. 
It annoys me beyond all rationale really, and OH can’t understand why. 
She knows how passionate I am about my shooting, but it’s difficult to relate to someone who doesn’t do it. 
Shooting and guns are my way of life; they aren’t a hobby, they are ingrained in my way of life and have been ever since I was old enough to carry one. 
I absolutely resent, detest and despise those who interfere with my way of life.

I don’t interfere in theirs, the least they can do is return the courtesy. 

Plus 2 

[Krico woodcock]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Couldn’t agree more. 
It annoys me beyond all rationale really, and OH can’t understand why. 
She knows how passionate I am about my shooting, but it’s difficult to relate to someone who doesn’t do it. 
Shooting and guns are my way of life; they aren’t a hobby, they are ingrained in my way of life and have been ever since I was old enough to carry one. 
I absolutely resent, detest and despise those who interfere with my way of life.

I don’t interfere in theirs, the least they can do is return the courtesy. 

This in a nutshell 

[Scully]

On 03/11/2023 at 22:37, rbrowning2 said:

The grade of steel used and its conditioning after machining in current barrels and chocked used for High performance proofed cartridges may be completely different to that use in guns prior to the introduction of HP steel cartridges. The proof process is about safety and margins of safety yes you can submit your old browning A1 for steel proofing depending on its current barrel wall thickness it may pass or may fail many guns may be submitted how many pass and how many fail?  HP steel proofing was obviously decided necessary by the industry for safe use of HP steel cartridges.

technology moves on.

 

 

‘May’ be completely different? Hardly conclusive is it? 
I know of quite a few non HP steel shot proofed guns which have been submitted by their owners for HP steel proofing, all of which passed.
These include two Winchester 101’s from the early 1980’s I think, two K32’s from a slightly earlier period, a Beretta A303 and right up to date, a Browning Crown. 
I haven’t heard of any which have failed; you would think that with the adverse publicity this would attract for the change over to non toxic, the internet would be littered with them, but like those lead shot ingested dead ducks, pretty elusive. 🤔

 

[Scully]

On 04/11/2023 at 23:01, yickdaz said:

Fair enough but you will end up using non toxic in the end, try using some steel carts you might be surprised by the results I haven't used lead  for 5 years steel only because I can sell on steel shot pigeons  you need non toxic   for Wildfowl so i thought stuff I I'll just use steel full stop so I'm more than ready for when lead is banned I'll just carry on as usual with no gripes 

I’ve used a lot of steel, all HP, both through Winchester 101’s from the 1980’s, a Browning 2000 and the only HP steel shot proofed gun I own, a Benelli M1 Super 90. I will shoot steel through my trap guns also, when there is no alternative. 
There’s nothing wrong with steel, but there’s nothing wrong with lead either. 
I have talked to reps from both Gamebore and Eley about their steel shot, and they have more to lose than I do if it doesn’t work in non-steel shot proofed guns. 
I’m not worried at all, simply annoyed. 

[udderlyoffroad]

I was listening to a podcast at the weekend whilst attempting to pull cables in...

Apparently the Danes are going to ban lead completely, targets and live quarry, shotguns and rifles, starting next year.

@Conor O'Gorman, is BASC working with its Danish equivalent to learn lessons that they'll face?  Do we know what the Danes have done to address any supply issues?  

[yickdaz]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I’ve used a lot of steel, all HP, both through Winchester 101’s from the 1980’s, a Browning 2000 and the only HP steel shot proofed gun I own, a Benelli M1 Super 90. I will shoot steel through my trap guns also, when there is no alternative. 
There’s nothing wrong with steel, but there’s nothing wrong with lead either. 
I have talked to reps from both Gamebore and Eley about their steel shot, and they have more to lose than I do if it doesn’t work in non-steel shot proofed guns. 
I’m not worried at all, simply annoyed. 

I agree nothing wrong with lead, but its on the horizon that we won't be able to to use it so I'm ready now I've switched all my guns to steel proofed ones  even though you can shoot steel through  SOME non steel proofed guns and get away with it  I'm doing it for piece of mind plus you will have trouble selling a non steel proofed one when lead is banned 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I was listening to a podcast at the weekend whilst attempting to pull cables in...

Apparently the Danes are going to ban lead completely, targets and live quarry, shotguns and rifles, starting next year.

@Conor O'Gorman, is BASC working with its Danish equivalent to learn lessons that they'll face?  Do we know what the Danes have done to address any supply issues?  

Thanks, I think it was 1996 when the Danish ban was for lead shot in shotguns came in and they have recently introduced a ban on using lead centrefire ammunition for hunting. The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain. I will check with colleagues for any further information I might have missed for Denmark and in relation to your question.

The following paper may be of interest in any case:

Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675819/

 

[Gordon R]

Perhaps someone can jog my memory. I seem to recall that the ultimate aim was to ban lead shot and single use wads. How will steel be used, as this is enclosed in a single use wad?

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 05/11/2023 at 20:23, Conor O'Gorman said:

On 05/11/2023 at 12:13, Rewulf said:

It's also interesting how, within 1 month of the announcement, the HSE put forward it's proposals and consultation plans, upon asking if BASC et al had any idea this was coming, they stated categorically they did not. 

It's my belief there was collusion in some way, obviously it can never be proven, but it calls into question the aims and trustworthiness of our shooting orgs. 

The announcement you refer to is, I presume, the one made by nine organisations in February 2020? The UK government announced in March 2021 that it was tasking HSE to review lead in ammunition.

Noting your lack of response to the above, whilst continuing to post ad nauseum elsewhere with your opinions about BASC, you might wish to acknowledge your error above and apologise for the baseless justification, spurious as it was in any case, for this, your latest conspiracy theory?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Noting your lack of response to the above, whilst continuing to post ad nauseum elsewhere with your opinions about BASC, you might wish to acknowledge your error above and apologise for the baseless justification, spurious as it was in any case, for this, your latest conspiracy theory?

I see it didn't take long to get back to the insults did it Conor? 

[clangerman]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I see it didn't take long to get back to the insults did it Conor? 

thought he was hilarious asking for an apology while still handing out his usual abuse lol 

[Penelope]

On 03/11/2023 at 09:57, Peter Harris said:

Are there any plans to stop the sale of Lead flashing in the Building Trade? Will HSE be removing Lead from Church roofs ? 

Will the HSE be mining all the extensive Lead deposits  from sites excavated since before Roman times that have left Lead contaminated spoil in our communities? Will the HSE  be removing all Lead piping that still carries our domestic water supplies ?

Just a few questions I would like answered before turning my attention to wiping out the historic British Gun Trade and country sports.

I think we all know this has nothing to do with protecting the populace from lead poisoning by ingestion.

[Penelope]

On 06/11/2023 at 08:06, Scully said:

I don’t interfere in theirs, the least they can do is return the courtesy. 

The same interests that have stuck their snouts into the ban of importing trophies; they don't care, in fact they are vehemently determined to do away with us. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Noting your lack of response to the above, whilst continuing to post ad nauseum elsewhere with your opinions about BASC, you might wish to acknowledge your error above and apologise for the baseless justification, spurious as it was in any case, for this, your latest conspiracy theory?

Conor - I note that you are an advocate of reflection. If you have the odd spare moment, perhaps you could reflect on yet another dig at Rewulf. If you wish to claim the moral high ground, you need to stop this.

[Bobba]

On 06/11/2023 at 14:55, yickdaz said:

I agree nothing wrong with lead, but its on the horizon that we won't be able to to use it so I'm ready now I've switched all my guns to steel proofed ones  even though you can shoot steel through  SOME non steel proofed guns and get away with it  I'm doing it for piece of mind plus you will have trouble selling a non steel proofed one when lead is banned 

Likewise. I didn’t want to switch guns so, for peace of mind and possible onward selling, I have had my OU’s reproofed for HP steel. Personal choice.

[udderlyoffroad]

On 06/11/2023 at 16:23, Conor O'Gorman said:

The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain. I will check with colleagues for any further information I might have missed for Denmark and in relation to your question.

Thanks Conor.

I think the point is, the HSE proposed ban makes no mention of plastic wads.

Presumably, the Danes have been busy littering their countryside with plastic wads since '87?   Further to the Northwest, the Norwegians have 'unbanned' lead as the lesser of two evils.

Surely the fact the technology for biodegradable wads is not there yet, along with supply chain issues* means that a lead ban is undesirable at this point?  Got to be worth pointing out the HSE...

*Hell, we could even blame Brexit, it cops the blame for everything else after all...