neutron619 Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere already - looks like we might have a new enemy in government. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/29/exclusive-theresa-mays-new-10-downing-street-environmental-adviser/ Just a heads-up really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yod dropper Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) Thankyou. The assault continues. Edited December 30, 2017 by yod dropper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 I have Said it before and I will say it again . It’s the big commercial shoots that are going to ruin shooting for all of us. They are an abomination and far from what shooting should be . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 50 minutes ago, Harnser said: I have Said it before and I will say it again . It’s the big commercial shoots that are going to ruin shooting for all of us. They are an abomination and far from what shooting should be . harnser Agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 5 hours ago, yod dropper said: Thankyou. The assault continues. 1 hour ago, Harnser said: I have Said it before and I will say it again . It’s the big commercial shoots that are going to ruin shooting for all of us. They are an abomination and far from what shooting should be . harnser Yes the assault does seem to continue as much from ourselves as any one else thou!! No wonder we can't put up a reasonable defense when we're too busy ripping it apart from the insides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 (edited) You can take that view or alternately take Harnser`s view which means that the majority could be deprived of their much loved sport by a minority of money making concerns which cater for a relative few people who often seem to love themselves more than anything...... The `war` has been going on for many decades,we are slowly losing it and are giving our opponents plenty of ammunition imho. Edited December 30, 2017 by matone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 But who is the real minority? The amount of days sold now on a commercial basis, someone is taking these days. and wot about all the folk that go beating/picking up, like me they may never ever shoot a 'proper' commercial driven day, should they also be deprived?? To try and claim any moral high ground from 1 shooting sport to another ur on very dodgy ground and to be quite honest are hard to justify or prove scientifically or ecologiclly Most shooters would happily throw grouse shooting under a bus to save their own sport yet it is the only truly self sustainable type of shooting The bottom line (and has been stated many times on here by a few) is the anti view 1 bird as too many, so they pick on wot they see as the easier targets the higher value days (and lt us tear ourselves apart) any self imposed bag limits etc are only playing into their hands. If u don't like commercial days, don't go it really is that simple. Also I'm not entirely sure wot practices go on on 'big' days that don't happen on smaller days, the only difference is the drives last longer, big bag days have been going on as long as shooting has existed, and big bag days existed long before DIY or farm shoots ever came about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, scotslad said: Yes the assault does seem to continue as much from ourselves as any one else thou!! No wonder we can't put up a reasonable defense when we're too busy ripping it apart from the insides You just Carnt see it . The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . Yes sir this is were the danger to shooting is coming from . Remember ,not to long ago the Dutch banned the rearing of game birds for shooting ,so what do the Dutch do now for shooting ,they get on a flight from Amsterdam to Norwich and pay massive amounts to shoot large numbers of immature of birds in Norfolk . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 35 minutes ago, scotslad said: But who is the real minority? The amount of days sold now on a commercial basis, someone is taking these days. and wot about all the folk that go beating/picking up, like me they may never ever shoot a 'proper' commercial driven day, should they also be deprived?? To try and claim any moral high ground from 1 shooting sport to another ur on very dodgy ground and to be quite honest are hard to justify or prove scientifically or ecologiclly Most shooters would happily throw grouse shooting under a bus to save their own sport yet it is the only truly self sustainable type of shooting The bottom line (and has been stated many times on here by a few) is the anti view 1 bird as too many, so they pick on wot they see as the easier targets the higher value days (and lt us tear ourselves apart) any self imposed bag limits etc are only playing into their hands. If u don't like commercial days, don't go it really is that simple. Also I'm not entirely sure wot practices go on on 'big' days that don't happen on smaller days, the only difference is the drives last longer, big bag days have been going on as long as shooting has existed, and big bag days existed long before DIY or farm shoots ever came about. Too true. It takes all sorts to make a shooting community. Tearing our community apart will not help any of us in the long term. Stick together get, behind your representative body and dig in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 18 minutes ago, oowee said: Too true. It takes all sorts to make a shooting community. Tearing our community apart will not help any of us in the long term. Stick together get, behind your representative body and dig in attack. Sorted, but I know what you mean and we have nothing to defend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Harnser said: You just Carnt see it . The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . Yes sir this is were the danger to shooting is coming from . Remember ,not to long ago the Dutch banned the rearing of game birds for shooting ,so what do the Dutch do now for shooting ,they get on a flight from Amsterdam to Norwich and pay massive amounts to shoot large numbers of immature of birds in Norfolk . Harnser Just because I don't agree with u doesn't meant I 'can't see it' If wot u allege above is actually true then THAT shoot needs a kick up its **** as that is not acceptable BUT poor sporting ethics/morals is not soley reserved for big bag days in fact I often see (or hear about from other shoot captains) more unsporting behaviour poor ethics, greed or un sfae handling from diy/farm shoots than I see on commercial days. Even wildfowling I've heard plenty of horror stories about folk shooting at high high birds and wandering onto roosts, 3 or 4 folk shooting at the wrong place could cause massive damage to geese even if their not actually killing any just by disturbance (but dog walkers and bird watchers can be just as guility) yet I don't blame that on all fowlers I have picked up(and beat0 on many moors from the N of eng to N of scot and the guns/owners I've met have been some of the most sporting and knowledgeable folk I've ever met in the shooting field with a real passion for shooting conservation and esp grouse, more so than lowland shoot owners (at least in my experience). And without doubt the best for marking birds down and counting how many they have down. Proper guns The problem with making sweeping generalisations is there is such a range between the good and the bad and simply putting numbers/limits doesn't really mean much. I know of a few well run shoots releasing 100K birds and shooting 100 plus days, but there shooting over massive areas, the habitat is quite good and even the pen woods aren't stripped bare To be honest when u walk throu the woods the birds aren't causing much damage and offset by the many benefits that these big shoots bring that simply don't happen with small diy/farm shoots. Where do u set the limits either for bags or rearing game, any ban on reared game will hit ur diy/farm rough shoots just as much as any big commercial shoot. I also bet a lot of 'sustainable' small 'wild' bird shoots would see big drops in bags as they turn out to be not as wild as they thought If that was the case it would not effect grouse shooting as doesn't involve reared birds, putting the price up making it even more exclusive, the same would also happen for wildfowling putting a far higher demand on the coastline, pushing rents up etc. Which could even push he working man out for a richier more fair weather fowlers. Wether u like/agree with the big commercial days at the very least it is giving a lot of folk there shooting 'fix' and taking the strain of all these other places leaving the rest of us to get on with wot we enjoy in peace wether a rough shoot or fowling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, matone said: You can take that view or alternately take Harnser`s view which means that the majority could be deprived of their much loved sport by a minority of money making concerns which cater for a relative few people who often seem to love themselves more than anything...... The `war` has been going on for many decades,we are slowly losing it and are giving our opponents plenty of ammunition imho. Just to addthe amount of commercial days sold now (plus the beaters ppickers up etc) I would imagine they are the vast majority of shooters, althou many of them will also do many other aspects of shooting. Just because u don't agree with it doesn't stop an other fowler/pigeon shooter still enjoying an odd paid day, it doesn't change him or his shooting ethics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 There are commercial shoits now having to pay the dealer to take birds.. So yes we are part of the attack on ourselves... I personally wont shoot more than I can use or hand to others to use. Bigger shoots will waste birds. Just in the name of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 I seem to recall that it was a 'party of Dutch shooters' that appeared in Jacks Game, all those years ago ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Looking through the history books,it looks like we have already moderated our bags from the Lord Ripon days of the 18th and 19th centuries when 3000/3500 bird days where the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, 8 shot said: Looking through the history books,it looks like we have already moderated our bags from the Lord Ripon days of the 18th and 19th centuries when 3000/3500 bird days where the norm. That was before tesco was formed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Harnser said: The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . Yes sir this is were the danger to shooting is coming from . Remember ,not to long ago the Dutch banned the rearing of game birds for shooting ,so what do the Dutch do now for shooting ,they get on a flight from Amsterdam to Norwich and pay massive amounts to shoot large numbers of immature of birds in Norfolk . Harnser Im with you on this one. I dont think that type of shoot does our sport any favours at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Im with you on this one. I dont think that type of shoot does our sport any favours at all. agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del.gue Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) I have not read all of this. But i believe the bigger danger is the apathy of us and our orgs. Im writing to my pro shoot mp and see if i can get an explanation. And to see if there is any point in even bothering to vote next time Edited December 31, 2017 by del.gue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 16 hours ago, Harnser said: The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . I think there's a few generalisations there I shoot commercial days, I'm more than happy to sit in a hide anytime I get chance I'll bag a goose on the foreshore when I can and so do many others who are also happy with a calm walked up day. But we do have to pay for someone else to put on a pheasant or partridge driven day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 17 hours ago, Harnser said: You just Carnt see it . The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . Yes sir this is were the danger to shooting is coming from . Remember ,not to long ago the Dutch banned the rearing of game birds for shooting ,so what do the Dutch do now for shooting ,they get on a flight from Amsterdam to Norwich and pay massive amounts to shoot large numbers of immature of birds in Norfolk . Harnser Bit of a sweeping statement there are a few that enjoy the big days and large bags who also go Fowling pigeon shooting ferreting and run there own small shoots What do you think would happen to all the woods and covers if the commercial part of shooting if destroyed land owners need to show a profit should they rip up the copses and grow products for a biomass fuel plant yes there need a few things changing just a few thoughts on it All the best of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) Commerce versus sport, never comfortable bed partners! But if there was no money to be made from rearing and releasing pheasants for the commercial market, no one would bother and there would probably be no pheasants for the roughshooter/pothunter to shoot! Same with Grouse! Why would moor owners spend vast amounts of money to nurture and preserve the moor, employ keepers etc if there was no income to pay for or subsidise this activity?.......If commercial Grouse shooting ended, there would soon be no Grouse (red or black!) on our moors! This is where the anti shooting extremists arguement falls......without commercial shooting, there would be none of these quarry species left in the countryside for them to protect! Take the Grey partridge! Who is pumping money and resources into saving the Grey partridge? If it was left up to the protectionists....they would probably be extinct or heading for extinction in the UK by now? This is not a pro big numbers commercial driven shoot posting......far from it, but it is not a simple as just stopping/banning it!.....Every action has a reaction.....and I for one wish to ensure any action taken does not end up having a negative one! Where would the tens of thousands of driven shooters go to find sport if commercial shooting stopped? Pigeon, Rabbit, Rough shooting, Wildfowling, Goose shooting?........supply on demand dictates demand for and access to these activities would rise dramatically........when the well heeled are chucking money at it, could you afford to stay in the game? Edited December 31, 2017 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: Commerce versus sport, never comfortable bed partners! But if there was no money to be made from rearing and releasing pheasants for the commercial market, no one would bother and there would probably be no pheasants for the roughshooter/pothunter to shoot! Same with Grouse! Why would moor owners spend vast amounts of money to nurture and preserve the moor, employ keepers etc if there was no income to pay for or subsidise this activity?.......If commercial Grouse shooting ended, there would soon be no Grouse (red or black!) on our moors! This is where the anti shooting extremists arguement falls......without commercial shooting, there would be none of these quarry species left in the countryside for them to protect! Take the Grey partridge! Who is pumping money and resources into saving the Grey partridge? If it was left up to the protectionists....they would probably be extinct or heading for extinction in the UK by now? This is not a pro big numbers commercial driven shoot posting......far from it, but it is not a simple as just stopping/banning it!.....Every action has a reaction.....and I for one wish to ensure any action taken does not end up having a negative one! Where would the tens of thousands of driven shooters go to find sport if commercial shooting stopped? Pigeon, Rabbit, Rough shooting, Wildfowling, Goose shooting?........supply on demand dictates demand for and access to these activities would rise dramatically........when the well heeled are chucking money at it, could you afford to stay in the game? With enough pressure from the anti lobby and they do have lots of clout they could force the government (particularly the Labour Party )to ban the sale of wild game . This ban was enforced years ago on the sale of wild geese to stop the market gunning of geese particularly in Scotland . This has been discussed among the anti lobby over the years and if forced on us would devastate shooting in this country overnight . This would be a thick wedge driven in to hopefully ban shooting altogether . These people are extreme and will use any matter they can to ban shooting . We as shooting men should be looking at all the dangers facing us that are trying to end our sport . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: Commerce versus sport, never comfortable bed partners! But if there was no money to be made from rearing and releasing pheasants for the commercial market, no one would bother and there would probably be no pheasants for the roughshooter/pothunter to shoot! Same with Grouse! Why would moor owners spend vast amounts of money to nurture and preserve the moor, employ keepers etc if there was no income to pay for or subsidise this activity?.......If commercial Grouse shooting ended, there would soon be no Grouse (red or black!) on our moors! This is where the anti shooting extremists arguement falls......without commercial shooting, there would be none of these quarry species left in the countryside for them to protect! Take the Grey partridge! Who is pumping money and resources into saving the Grey partridge? If it was left up to the protectionists....they would probably be extinct or heading for extinction in the UK by now? This is not a pro big numbers commercial driven shoot posting......far from it, but it is not a simple as just stopping/banning it!.....Every action has a reaction.....and I for one wish to ensure any action taken does not end up having a negative one! Where would the tens of thousands of driven shooters go to find sport if commercial shooting stopped? Pigeon, Rabbit, Rough shooting, Wildfowling, Goose shooting?........supply on demand dictates demand for and access to these activities would rise dramatically........when the well heeled are chucking money at it, could you afford to stay in the game? Well balanced post and food for thought I fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 I have read a fair few posts on forums against shooting, be it grouse, pheasant, wild fowling, or what we call vermin control, these people are well organised, and know how to get Joe public on their side by the using emotive language and pictures, they also have a voice in the media that we cannot match, or can we?. I’ve cut and pasted below a piece by Mark Avery (anti shooting) on how his troops should attack us. I think that their tactics of entry by the back door, will, in the next 10 or 15 years force change to shooting to a point that we are few and weak, will it be the end of shooting as we all know it today, who knows? Mark Avery I have always said that we need to divide the problem and tackle all the issues individually. Using fire to destroy peatland and upland biodiversity is probably our easiest target. Lead shot is another low hanging fruit. When we try to go straight to a ban we leave them to much wiggle room for blurring the problem. Simply chip away all of the individual activities they need- till their are none left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.