Crime and Punishment in the snowflake age

[bruno22rf]

It's no good....I cant help myself....Eggs and Flour?.....she was battered then? No offence intended.

Edited August 8, 2018 by bruno22rf

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

No its not, there are probably a lot more feral white kids like that roaming the estates than all the other ethnic groups put together. Hoodie, cheap training jacket, grey primark trackies and low budget trainers, that picture could be described as the Chav's in their national dress.

Oh! So it's mostly white 'chavs' stabbing, shooting and killing each other is it? I believe the statistics (if you could get em?) would dispute this?

[snow white]

I answed my dad back once next thing i am picing myself up from behind the sette after the quickes back hander you could imagine.i was 14 never answed back again i am 69 now sittle remember it.

[Penelope]

16 hours ago, Vince Green said:

No its not, there are probably a lot more feral white kids like that roaming the estates than all the other ethnic groups put together. Hoodie, cheap training jacket, grey primark trackies and low budget trainers, that picture could be described as the Chav's in their national dress.

Which in my experience is an imitation of black street culture.

[Scully]

14 hours ago, snow white said:

I answed my dad back once next thing i am picing myself up from behind the sette after the quickes back hander you could imagine.i was 14 never answed back again i am 69 now sittle remember it.

Very sad; my Dad never struck me.

[Deker]

On 04/08/2018 at 23:08, henry d said:

So how much would you pay to prevent rather than punish?

Or do you like the idea of punishment rather than prevention? Just saying...as some say

 

Two sides of the same coin, the punishment is the prevention, that's the problem with the softly, softly approach, to add to a point earlier in the thread, my dad never had to smack me BUT I knew if i misbehaved what would happen, there was no doubt about it..

[beanieboy]

Recent case over here whereby a guy got drunk and beat the **** out of his ex girlfriend. The sitting judge commented that it was one of the worst assaults he'd seen. Sentence?....4 months....suspended. Where is the justice, or indeed deterrent, in that decision? Makes my blood boil....

[guzzicat]

2 minutes ago, beanieboy said:

Recent case over here whereby a guy got drunk and beat the **** out of his ex girlfriend. The sitting judge commented that it was one of the worst assaults he'd seen. Sentence?....4 months....suspended. Where is the justice, or indeed deterrent, in that decision? Makes my blood boil....

How many judges live in built up areas & experience modern city living & how many live in large detatched houses, whisked by a car with blacked out windows into court to pass judgement on aspects of life they will never experience?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It would be good to see some of these derisory sentences challenged and extended!

[beanieboy]

58 minutes ago, guzzicat said:

How many judges live in built up areas & experience modern city living & how many live in large detatched houses, whisked by a car with blacked out windows into court to pass judgement on aspects of life they will never experience?

Yes, they appear to be completely out of touch with reality.

[Rewulf]

On 08/08/2018 at 14:58, henry d said:

It`s less than 15 minutes long and goes a long way towards explaining why C&P in its present state does not work and is transferable from addiction to other social ills

Ive had a look at the video, and yes its interesting, but its relevance is more toward addiction of 'hard' drugs and the treatment of such.
Whilst these sort of addicts do account for a good deal of small crimes, this thread isnt really about them, as no amount of punishment will 'cure' them.
The fact that prisons are no bar to obtaining drugs such as heroin and cocaine is just another reflection on how lax we are with the phenomena.
So will not be cured in prison either, my friends son used to like going to prison, as the heroin was cheaper !

I do have a good deal of experience with drugs, addicts and the general hopelessness that causes people to take them.
But that isnt the only reason, people with good jobs, happy families and a balanced, positive outlook still take drugs.
People have been getting high for thousands of years,   because they like it.
The friends son I mentioned above, wanted for nothing, (his dad was a multi millionaire) had friends, a damn good life!
But he threw it all away to be a toothless, shoplifting smackhead with HIV.

Curing crime with love is a noble crusade, and it may well work in a number of cases.
But this world is not getting any more loving, quite the opposite if we are honest about it.

The idea and title is about the message we send out when we hand out pathetic punishments for serious crimes.
Ive spoken about this before, its effect is 2 fold.
First the offender has no fear of the law, thats if the law can catch him with its resources stretched with red tape ,and hands tied by PC rules, if they are caught ,the punishment is small enough to not be a  deterrent now ,or in the future.
Second, the general, law abiding public, the victims, have no faith in the law protecting them from crime, and if in the event of the perp being caught, no faith that they will receive a worthy punishment.
This is a terrible state of affairs, Im sure you will agree ?

I say we have tried to be nice, to rehabilitate, and work to prevent.
It hasnt really worked from what I can see.

We can continue doing it, but why not try revising our sentencing system too ?
Maybe the threat of a more harsh prison environment, and longer sentencing might make people think its just not worth it ?

[motty]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Ive had a look at the video, and yes its interesting, but its relevance is more toward addiction of 'hard' drugs and the treatment of such.
Whilst these sort of addicts do account for a good deal of small crimes, this thread isnt really about them, as no amount of punishment will 'cure' them.
The fact that prisons are no bar to obtaining drugs such as heroin and cocaine is just another reflection on how lax we are with the phenomena.
So will not be cured in prison either, my friends son used to like going to prison, as the heroin was cheaper !

I do have a good deal of experience with drugs, addicts and the general hopelessness that causes people to take them.
But that isnt the only reason, people with good jobs, happy families and a balanced, positive outlook still take drugs.
People have been getting high for thousands of years,   because they like it.
The friends son I mentioned above, wanted for nothing, (his dad was a multi millionaire) had friends, a damn good life!
But he threw it all away to be a toothless, shoplifting smackhead with HIV.

Curing crime with love is a noble crusade, and it may well work in a number of cases.
But this world is not getting any more loving, quite the opposite if we are honest about it.

The idea and title is about the message we send out when we hand out pathetic punishments for serious crimes.
Ive spoken about this before, its effect is 2 fold.
First the offender has no fear of the law, thats if the law can catch him with its resources stretched with red tape ,and hands tied by PC rules, if they are caught ,the punishment is small enough to not be a  deterrent now ,or in the future.
Second, the general, law abiding public, the victims, have no faith in the law protecting them from crime, and if in the event of the perp being caught, no faith that they will receive a worthy punishment.
This is a terrible state of affairs, Im sure you will agree ?

I say we have tried to be nice, to rehabilitate, and work to prevent.
It hasnt really worked from what I can see.

We can continue doing it, but why not try revising our sentencing system too ?
Maybe the threat of a more harsh prison environment, and longer sentencing might make people think its just not worth it ?

Spot on!

[12gauge82]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Ive had a look at the video, and yes its interesting, but its relevance is more toward addiction of 'hard' drugs and the treatment of such.
Whilst these sort of addicts do account for a good deal of small crimes, this thread isnt really about them, as no amount of punishment will 'cure' them.
The fact that prisons are no bar to obtaining drugs such as heroin and cocaine is just another reflection on how lax we are with the phenomena.
So will not be cured in prison either, my friends son used to like going to prison, as the heroin was cheaper !

I do have a good deal of experience with drugs, addicts and the general hopelessness that causes people to take them.
But that isnt the only reason, people with good jobs, happy families and a balanced, positive outlook still take drugs.
People have been getting high for thousands of years,   because they like it.
The friends son I mentioned above, wanted for nothing, (his dad was a multi millionaire) had friends, a damn good life!
But he threw it all away to be a toothless, shoplifting smackhead with HIV.

Curing crime with love is a noble crusade, and it may well work in a number of cases.
But this world is not getting any more loving, quite the opposite if we are honest about it.

The idea and title is about the message we send out when we hand out pathetic punishments for serious crimes.
Ive spoken about this before, its effect is 2 fold.
First the offender has no fear of the law, thats if the law can catch him with its resources stretched with red tape ,and hands tied by PC rules, if they are caught ,the punishment is small enough to not be a  deterrent now ,or in the future.
Second, the general, law abiding public, the victims, have no faith in the law protecting them from crime, and if in the event of the perp being caught, no faith that they will receive a worthy punishment.
This is a terrible state of affairs, Im sure you will agree ?

I say we have tried to be nice, to rehabilitate, and work to prevent.
It hasnt really worked from what I can see.

We can continue doing it, but why not try revising our sentencing system too ?
Maybe the threat of a more harsh prison environment, and longer sentencing might make people think its just not worth it ?

Yes spot on, the only thing I'll add is the common misconception that harsh prisons don't work, while it is obviously true prison has never worked 100%, what the fliffy left like to leave out is that the offending rate was much lower when prison was harsher and while I beleive rehabilitation should always be tried, particually with the young, it is almost futile with adult habitual offenders and therefore the safety of the public should be put before the chance of serial offenders to be rehabilitated, I think a 3 strikes and your out type system for serious offences should be a good start.

[old man]

On 09/08/2018 at 09:41, guzzicat said:

How many judges live in built up areas & experience modern city living & how many live in large detatched houses, whisked by a car with blacked out windows into court to pass judgement on aspects of life they will never experience?

And that mirrors the attitudes of politicians, let's make any old quick decision because it won't be close enough to affect us. Not giving a fig!

On 09/08/2018 at 09:42, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It would be good to see some of these derisory sentences challenged and extended!

Challenged by who bud? Not in anyone's interest to do that because of the cost implications?

[old man]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yes spot on, the only thing I'll add is the common misconception that harsh prisons don't work, while it is obviously true prison has never worked 100%, what the fliffy left like to leave out is that the offending rate was much lower when prison was harsher and while I beleive rehabilitation should always be tried, particually with the young, it is almost futile with adult habitual offenders and therefore the safety of the public should be put before the chance of serial offenders to be rehabilitated, I think a 3 strikes and your out type system for serious offences should be a good start.

Far too lenient for serious offences such as assault upwards. One strike and you're in for a minimum of 15 with no reductions is needed now? How can we have a society where it's ok to beat the c**p out of someone and walk away?

[Newbie to this]

20 minutes ago, old man said:

Challenged by who bud? Not in anyone's interest to do that because of the cost implications?

Anyone can challenge certain sentences and it only takes one person.

https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review

Edited August 10, 2018 by Newbie to this

[JohnfromUK]

Unfortunately, keeping people in prison is horrendously expensive.  Quite why has always been something of a mystery to me.  Though I think they are far to 'luxurious' than they should be, they aren't really (or shouldn't be) expensive to run, and the ratio of staff to inmates shouldn't need to be all that high?

These are what I have seen quoted:

"It costs £65,000 to imprison a person in this country once police, court costs and all the other steps are taken into account. After that it costs a further £40,000 for each year they spend incarcerated."

Hence the (misguided in my view) short sentences and early releases.

Nothing these days is as stated;  Hire a car, book a flight etc, and the 'price' is usually inflated by extras.  Similarly, receive a sentence ......... and you don't expect to serve anything like that.  Why can't we be open and say sentence is X years and you can expect to serve X years? 

Edited August 10, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[old man]

26 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Anyone can challenge certain sentences and it only takes one person.

https://www.gov.uk/ask-crown-court-sentence-review

Mm, Good luck with that, I'll hold your coat.

Just more official bull dung to appear caring. Good consumption for the masses.

In any event it's not the job of the plebians to regulate sentences, surely that's what our justice system is for? 

 

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, old man said:

 

In any event it's not the job of the plebians to regulate sentences, surely that's what our justice system is for? 

 

We pay them to do a job, a job of dispensing 'justice' 
Like in any job, you dont keep your employers happy (us) you get let go, sacked, retired.

This judge did his job and gave the man 2 life sentences, but with a rec. that he did 'at least' 7.5 years.
So thats exactly what he did, 7.5 and then got released.
So what was the point of those 2 life sentences ? To make it look like he was being hit hard for his crimes ?

https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/06/police-officer-raped-30-women-walks-free-7-years-two-life-sentences-7802785/

 

[old man]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We pay them to do a job, a job of dispensing 'justice' 
Like in any job, you dont keep your employers happy (us) you get let go, sacked, retired.

This judge did his job and gave the man 2 life sentences, but with a rec. that he did 'at least' 7.5 years.
So thats exactly what he did, 7.5 and then got released.
So what was the point of those 2 life sentences ? To make it look like he was being hit hard for his crimes ?

https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/06/police-officer-raped-30-women-walks-free-7-years-two-life-sentences-7802785/

 

?  Absolutely disgraceful!

[Scully]

I saw this on the news. It would be nice to think someone was ‘waiting’ for him outside. 

The time will come when those who feel let down by the ‘justice’ services will administer their own. 

[henry d]

23 hours ago, Rewulf said:

This is a terrible state of affairs, Im sure you will agree ? Indeed

I say we have tried to be nice, to rehabilitate, and work to prevent.
It hasnt really worked from what I can see. That is the problem, where prevention has worked you do not see it, if intervention is not done you will get statistics, someone gets into trouble/jail. Where intervention works they do not get into trouble/jail, and there is no stats, so it is harder to get funding for intervention work.

We can continue doing it, but why not try revising our sentencing system too ?
Maybe the threat of a more harsh prison environment, and longer sentencing might make people think its just not worth it ?

Unlikely as a large proportion of inmates have mental health issues, addiction problems, or both.

Unfortunately there is no money for any kind of intervention work from the govt. Were I live there is a trust who are willing to pay out for the whole of Perthshire`s targeted youth work as the youth provision budget has had to be cut to the bone. Keeping that in mind how much is it going to cost to keep all the criminals, that everyone here seems to think are beyond help, in a jail until the future prospective criminals decide that crime does not pay after all?

[Gordon R]

Perhaps by making prison less of a soft option than it is now. You can try and prevent crime or have a genuine deterrent. There are flaws in both, but I would go with harsher deterrents.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, henry d said:

Unfortunately there is no money for any kind of intervention work from the govt. Were I live there is a trust who are willing to pay out for the whole of Perthshire`s targeted youth work as the youth provision budget has had to be cut to the bone. Keeping that in mind how much is it going to cost to keep all the criminals, that everyone here seems to think are beyond help, in a jail until the future prospective criminals decide that crime does not pay after all?

You are absolutely correct, and the governments doesnt fund things unless it makes them look good.
I do think more money should be spent on youth projects, if nothing but to put a sense of self respect into todays young people, this lack of self respect is one of the biggest precursors of crime in my opinion.
Life is not always easy for kids these days, there are pressures on them to look and perform, and have the 'right' lifestyle, the role of their peers, social influencers, music and film stars makes it very difficult for some to feel like they belong, or that they are 'worth' anything.
This causes resentment and outright anger, leading to all the issues you speak of and then some .

I dont think anyone thinks that people who are put in prison are 'beyond' help, but help should not come at the expense of punishment and deterrence.
This is whats getting people annoyed and deluded .
The victims of rapes and serious assaults, have many years of injuries ,trauma, loss of dignity and PTSD , whilst they see the perp get a pitiful amount of time, thats if they get any at all.
Sometimes having to face your attacker in the street on a regular basis, is this fair ?

I understand the prison costs, but cant actually fathom how these figures are achieved.
You might as well give them the 40k per year and tell them to go home and behave themselves, there would probably be far less reoffending !
Wouldnt do much for the victims obviously, but then they seem to get precious little consideration anyway.

[12gauge82]

11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Unfortunately, keeping people in prison is horrendously expensive.  Quite why has always been something of a mystery to me.  Though I think they are far to 'luxurious' than they should be, they aren't really (or shouldn't be) expensive to run, and the ratio of staff to inmates shouldn't need to be all that high?

These are what I have seen quoted:

"It costs £65,000 to imprison a person in this country once police, court costs and all the other steps are taken into account. After that it costs a further £40,000 for each year they spend incarcerated."

Hence the (misguided in my view) short sentences and early releases.

Nothing these days is as stated;  Hire a car, book a flight etc, and the 'price' is usually inflated by extras.  Similarly, receive a sentence ......... and you don't expect to serve anything like that.  Why can't we be open and say sentence is X years and you can expect to serve X years? 

The reason housing prisoners is so expensive, is, as you have already guessed, predominately due to the perks and rights they are entitled to whilst inside, this costs huge amounts of money and is very staff intensive, particually the huge expense wasted on ineffective rehabilitation and courses, get rid of alot of their rights and bin the courses, programs and staff that facilitate them and the lost causes could be warehoused in prison cheaply.