Is more Health and Safety in our sport required

[zipdog]

I hadn’t given any of this much though until very recently. I am 25, though I was relativity fit and healthy and then three weeks ago got diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. Now, as far as I know at this stage, what causes Multiple Sclerosis is still up for discussion however several  scientific reports do suggest a link between MS and contact with heavy metals, we certainly know that lead causes a number of other neurological diseases. 

I have been shooting since I was able to hold an air rifle and am I under the firm impression that the vast majority of shooter are incredibly responsible and consiosesious beings. I certainly had it distilled in me about the dangers of shooting, the need for muzzle awareness, backstop’s, target identification etc,  but all of this all was aimed at protecting things downrange. 

One area that seems to be vastly over looked is our own personal safety.

In my early teens I used to shoot about 100-200 pellets a day through a break action Webley air rifle. Handling lead pellets, I would then go eat my tea, go back shooting, maybe eat an apple i’d picked of a tree, all without washing my hands and without thinking about the possibility of lead entering my body. No-one ever told me to wash my hands after handling lead pellets or to wear gloves etc. 

So iv been thinking has my hobby caused my illness and then today I went to the gun shop as I needed some more pellets so I randomly though I would read all of the safety warnings, shockingly, given they are made of lead, there is nothing at all printed on the tin telling you not eat them, put them in your mouth etc. In short no warnings at all about the danger of handling lead.

In a world where even my coffee has to be labelled with a hot sticker it seems crazy to me that products, know to cause neurological problems, are being sold with no safety warnings at all!! 

Do you agree or am i over reacting?

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by zipdog

[Guest stevo]

I think your over reacting, and what type of MS do you have ? 

how many lesions have been identified 

Also what test have you had done to confirm your MS 

 

MRI  scan ,

Lumber punch .

neurologist  

Evoked potential test

 

Patients usually experience a first neurologic event suggestive of MS known as Clinically Isolated Syndrome (CIS). It lasts for at least 24 hours, with symptoms and signs indicating either a single lesion (monofocal) or more than one lesion (multifocal) within the central nervous system.1

There are 4 types of MS. They're named according to the way the disease acts on the body over time.2

THE 4 TYPES OF MS

• Relapsing-Remitting MS (RRMS). This is the most common form of multiple sclerosis. About 85% of people with MS are initially diagnosed with RRMS. People with RRMS have temporary periods called relapses, flare-ups or exacerbations, when new symptoms appear2
• Secondary-Progressive MS (SPMS). In SPMS, symptoms worsen more steadily over time, with or without the occurrence of relapses and remissions. Most people who are diagnosed with RRMS will transition to SPMS at some point3
• Primary-Progressive MS (PPMS). This type of MS is not very common, occurring in about 10% of people with MS. PPMS is characterized by slowly worsening symptoms from the beginning, with no relapses or remissions2
• Progressive-Relapsing MS (PRMS). A rare form of MS (5%), PRMS is characterized by a steadily worsening disease state from the beginning, with acute relapses but no remissions, with or without recovery2

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by stevo

[Guest stevo]

 Two yrs ago My missus was diagnosed with Primary-Progressive MS (PPMS)  😞

 

it took 18 months to confirm 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by stevo

[Harnser]

I to have been exposed to lead over many years by casting my own bullits for pistol and rifle shooting . I have also been exposed to aspestos from being in the building industry in the early sixtys . At 75 years old ,other than the aches and pains associated with a person my age I am still pretty fit and can still do just about everything that I want to . 

  After learning later in life about the dangers of exposer to heavy metals and aspestos I tried to avoid them . I think that many people who shoot will have been exposed to lead without any apparent harm to their health . I certainly don’t know of anybody who has been a shooter suffering from the affects of exposer to lead .I wish you the best of luck for the future and also wish Stevos wife good luck for the future and hope that medical science can come up with a cure for this most dreadful complaint .

harnser

[HW95J]

Sorry to hear about the diagnosis. I don't know about how that condition might link to lead exposure-  However, I was always told to wash my hands after rifle shooting. When I got into airguns I had a few tins with warning messages on the tape, I think it was so they could be sold in California? It served as a reminder to keep washing hands after shooting sessions. Whether or not lead can cause MS, we know it can cause other problems. A warning on tins would probably be no bad thing.

[Old Boggy]

I think that everyone of a certain age (as many on here, including myself) have been exposed to lead without even realising it with no apparent harm. Think of all the old lead mains water pipes with the water laying in them and this was drunk every day. Probably still many lead pipes in existence today.

As Harnser rightly said, we now try to avoid harmful substances, but lead didn't seem to do us much harm. Asbestos is another matter, as many of my old building trade colleagues, especially laggers, including my brother, sadly found out in later life.

OB

[Walker570]

78yrs old last week and was given my first air rifle for my 7th birthday. The local hardware store back in the late 40s and 50s couldn't keep up with the number of pellets I fired. Moved to a 410 for my 12th birthday then two years later grew big enough to shoot my grandfathers 12 gauge. My recreational time back then and since has revolved around shooting, including many hundreds of rounds of 9mm, 38 and 357 from handguns.  I really do feel for you and appreciate you raising the subject. On the Shooters Forum at the moment there is a discussion of the use of lead bullets and how minute amounts of lead are blown into the meat when a rifle bullet passes through which may be consumed. Should all bullets be made from copper ..eg., Barnes TTSX ?  BUT... is not high concentrations of copper bad for us as well ?  

Lead for sure is not friendly to us but I am not sure that after loading and shooting half a dozen .177 pellets I should wash my hands is necesaary. My old granny used to say,

"You have to eat a peck of dirt before you die".  

As said above, if you are using and dealing with harmful materials in every day life then stupid not to take precautions.  We now have lead free fuel, has the incidence of MS fallen since that came about because the intake of lead from exhaust fumes must have effected everyone to a larger extent than loading a few air rifle pellets.

I wish you well and sincerly hope that your condition is manageable and as fister says .. keep your chin up and try to wake up each morning smiling.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by Walker570

[zipdog]

9 hours ago, stevo said:

I think your over reacting, and what type of MS do you have ? 

how many lesions have been identified 

Also what test have you had done to confirm your MS 

 

MRI  scan ,

Lumber punch .

neurologist  

Evoked potential test 

 

Patients usually experience a first neurologic event suggestive of MS known as Clinically Isolated Syndrome (CIS). It lasts for at least 24 hours, with symptoms and signs indicating either a single lesion (monofocal) or more than one lesion (multifocal) within the central nervous system.1

There are 4 types of MS. They're named according to the way the disease acts on the body over time.2

THE 4 TYPES OF MS

• Relapsing-Remitting MS (RRMS). This is the most common form of multiple sclerosis. About 85% of people with MS are initially diagnosed with RRMS. People with RRMS have temporary periods called relapses, flare-ups or exacerbations, when new symptoms appear2
• Secondary-Progressive MS (SPMS). In SPMS, symptoms worsen more steadily over time, with or without the occurrence of relapses and remissions. Most people who are diagnosed with RRMS will transition to SPMS at some point3
• Primary-Progressive MS (PPMS). This type of MS is not very common, occurring in about 10% of people with MS. PPMS is characterized by slowly worsening symptoms from the beginning, with no relapses or remissions2
• Progressive-Relapsing MS (PRMS). A rare form of MS (5%), PRMS is characterized by a steadily worsening disease state from the beginning, with acute relapses but no remissions, with or without recovery2

 

 

I find you questions a little personal but if you really must know I have had clinical attacks, the most recent Optic Neuritis which has caused me to loose most of my vision out of my right eye, this should return over the next few months I will add. The tests I have had done include Mri on brain, with and without contrast, Mri on spine and again with and without contrast, a lumber puncture and various other tests undertaken by or under the instructions from a Neurologist. 

Thank you for identifying the four different types of MS, I am aware of them and which one of them I have been diagnosed with. 

 

 

My post isn't really about MS. The post is about the handling of lead products, which we know can cause a long list of illnesses yet the whole industry seems very cavalier towards the handling of the product. I personally think there should be more awareness and safety warnings on the lead products we buy. I mean how come companies producing lead products are exempt when even just looking at the back of a fairly liquid container there are loads of warning about skin irritation, product ingestion etc.

Edited September 10, 2018 by zipdog

[Newbie to this]

15 minutes ago, fister said:

Nobody gives a carp, I once made a complaint to H&S about large quantities of asbestos dust in the workplace during building works and guess what, bog all was done about it. It’s all just a money making scheme for jobsworths, nothing to do with protecting people.

This 100%, it's all about money and nothing else. When working on building sites at the beginning H&S is a big issue, but when the job is near finish and behind schedule (mainly due to the overreaction to H&S at the beginning) then it all goes out the window.

[cardigun]

Could someone with real knowledge of the subject advise us ?   I thought that Metallic lead didn't harm us; but that lead salts ( organic compounds ?) did.  Most of us who eat Game will pass lead shot in the Loo, without any harm.  But a bird with a gizzard can grind it up and mix it with digestive juices, which will harm it.

Any advice ?

[Hamster]

I'm more than twice your age and used to carry lead air gun pellets under my tongue in my mouth, blow them dry and load them 😖  this went on between the age of 9 to about 13 I guess and even at the time I knew it was wrong so tried not to salivate or swallow and would swish and clean with water when finished. 

My mother in law died from colon cancer three years ago and was a very healthy eater, she'd eat fruit by the bowl full, unfortunately a lot of things are just down to poor luck. I sometimes wonder how any of us is alive when breathing in sooooo much toxic traffic smoke. 

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I'm more than twice your age and used to carry lead air gun pellets under my tongue in my mouth, blow them dry and load them 😖  this went on between the age of 9 to about 13 I guess and even at the time I knew it was wrong so tried not to salivate or swallow and would swish and clean with water when finished. 

My mother in law died from colon cancer three years ago and was a very healthy eater, she'd eat fruit by the bowl full, unfortunately a lot of things are just down to poor luck. I sometimes wonder how any of us is alive when breathing in sooooo much toxic traffic smoke. 

And then there's painting your lead soldiers and licking the brush to get a fine point for the application of the lead based paint when Mother brings you some supper of bread and dripping.

[Scully]

No. 

[panoma1]

Everything is a risk! Crossing the road is a risk! If yer names on the bullet, there's no escaping it! Wrapping yourself in cotton wool and hiding away indoors will make no difference........if you do you won't live a life........just an existence!

[Harnser]

I think being alive kills, us . More poisons are ingested through the air we breathe with all the modern day pollution that we have to breathe in if we want to take a trip in to the city . Life can be very cruel and we are all delt a hand that we have to play the best way we can. I believe we should live for today and to enjoy today the best way we can .

harnser

[zipdog]

I suppose a more accurate topic title should of been 'Why does lead ammunition not need to carry a warning saying may contain lead, do not consume etc and should it?'

 

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

This 100%, it's all about money and nothing else. When working on building sites at the beginning H&S is a big issue, but when the job is near finish and behind schedule (mainly due to the overreaction to H&S at the beginning) then it all goes out the window.

Yep. The number of site inductions I’ve sat through just to see it blatantly ignored when needs be. I fell out with my old boss who said he could boot me off site for not wearing steelies one day who then got on the FLT the following week when I was unavailable to drive it. He did have the decency to look embarrassed. 

[strimmer_13]

On 09/09/2018 at 23:24, zipdog said:

There is nothing at all printed on the tin telling you not eat them, put them in your mouth etc. In short no warnings at all about the danger of handling lead.

In a world where even my coffee has to be labelled with a hot sticker it seems crazy to me that products, know to cause neurological problems, are being sold with no safety warnings at all!! 

 

 

 

 

It seemed to me,' said Wonko the Sane, 'that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane. (Douglas Adams, So long and thanks for all the fish) 

No offence intended, but if a label is needed on everything, especially to not eat lead pellets, Id feel like wonko here 😂

[mudpatten]

Sorry to read of your illness.

My late father - who incidentally died of old age - was an apprenticed plumber when there was much useage of lead and subsequently handled it for much of his working life. His professional viewpoint, and that of his peers, was that lead was only poisonous when ingested. 

[ditchman]

i used to keep my pellets in my mouth....then chew the odd one when i ran out of chewing gum..........

 

im still here......

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But mad as a box of frogs!

[snow white]

I had lead poising in 2000 i had worked in scrap yards for years cutting up old bridges /buildings/and anythink else that came in the yard thay where painted in red lead some of the stuff was from late 1800 and early 1900 man that paint was thick.

I was diagniosed with 78 percent lead in me doctor phoned me after blood test told me to stop working straight away.

Was told to drink milk to get it out of me i hate the bloody stuff but it worked after 9 months i was allowed back to work but not burning 

old steel work.       

I am fine now no sign of it i am 69 years old.

I Wish you all the best tony.

Ps i have fished and shot all my life i used to put pellets in my mouth save mucking about with pockets squezzed lead shot with teeth.

 

                                   

 

[greenergp]

I too used to keep airgun pellets in my mouth, i am nearly 60 and got my first airgun aged 8 and must of had hundreds and hundreds of pellets carried in my mouth over the years , i also did the lead splitshot thing and i am still here.

[Yellow Bear]

This strikes me as a bit like the label I have seen printed on a bag of mixed nuts    -    Danger may contain traces of nuts   -  H&S gone bonkers

[ordnance]

Everyone knows that lead is poisonous, don't they.  After that its up to the individual how seriously they take it.