Extreme pheasant shooting

[Robertt]

I think some on this forum have never been out the house, never mind shot game.

This tread has turned rotten and should be deleted.

[andrewluke]

4 minutes ago, Robertt said:

I think some on this forum have never been out the house, never mind shot game.

This tread has turned rotten and should be deleted.

if you dont like it then dont read it

[figgy]

3 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Think if you watch the film you will find Gerwyn is using Steel at Brigands!

Only on one drive the last one, being a Fowler I was watching for it. It's the drive he uses a clay gun, took some good birds, didn't do so well at distance when I watched him shooting pigeons with it in a nother video.

Edited November 12, 2019 by figgy

[motty]

33 minutes ago, Robertt said:

I think some on this forum have never been out the house, never mind shot game.

This tread has turned rotten and should be deleted.

I don't think so. I think there is plenty of mileage left, yet.

[lancer425]

9 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

 

Blackpowder.

No your not an oddity at all agree with your post entirely. 

[Hamster]

9 hours ago, Robertt said:

I think some on this forum have never been out the house, never mind shot game.

This tread has turned rotten and should be deleted.

No way should it be removed, nobody has been nasty to the other and tempers haven’t flared, there’s a difference of opinion (backed by facts and physical data on one side, rhetorics and assumptions on the other) which needs to be investigated and put to bed for the good of the sport and care for the quarry. 

If and when it is found that 80-90 yard birds can be cleanly and consistently killed (with the loads suggested) then I need to be able to retract my words and apologise on the actual thread, (I’ve been wrong before), if the thread is removed we’re just burying our heads in the sand.

[stuartyboy]

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

No way should it be removed, nobody has been nasty to the other and tempers haven’t flared, there’s a difference of opinion (backed by facts and physical data on one side, rhetorics and assumptions on the other) which needs to be investigated and put to bed for the good of the sport and care for the quarry. 

If and when it is found that 80-90 yard birds can be cleanly and consistently killed (with the loads suggested) then I need to be able to retract my words and apologise on the actual thread, (I’ve been wrong before), if the thread is removed we’re just burying our heads in the sand.

Spot on.

Bottom line is that we all owe the utmost respect to any living creature that we kill, whether for food, sport or control.

That means taking safe shots within the limits of your abilities and the gun and cartridge used, to minimise the chance of something being wounded and not dispatched.

To me, 80 or 90 yards is way beyond the capabilities of a shotgun to ensure a good chance of a clean kill consistently. Anyone who says they can consistently kill at that range clearly can't estimate the actual distance. Or are lying. 

Leave the long distant shots for targets

[JJsDad]

19 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

No, you are not the oddity in this discussion. I should think your description about sums up a large majority of the game shooters in this country. At £60 a bird for a 300 bird day these guys are paying more for 1 day than I spend (or can afford) all year on my shooting. The claims of firing off 300 to 500 cartridges a day leave me totally cold. Do I envy them ?  No.         Interesting to note that there is a well presented article on the web by no less an authority than George Digweed, who knows a thing or two about shooting. The article does not support the 80 - 90 yard claims being bandied around in this thread. However, its a free world (just); if this type of shooting is what you enjoy, crack on. But dont expect any hero worship from me when you manage to connect with a 90 yard Pheasant.

With the release of huge numbers of birds and shooting in general constantly under the microscope, I don`t believe these shoots or their customers do the sport any favours.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JJsDad
spelling

[Perazzishot]

Ok the distances are being stretched to suit peoples agenda. 

60yd+ with flushing points tops of trees they fly over all being laser pinged for heights as mentioned so no guess work, laser measurements.

In some places these are in excess of 80yds they fly straight, up and sometimes slightly down it is a ravine with the bank the other side the same height so they fly over like on most extreme shoots they are sent over between two high points they don't need to anything but fly flat. If the top of the tree they fly over in 80yds and the one on the other side is 82yds that bird flew at 80yds over the valley. This is not guesswork.

Pheasants on these drives fall stone dead out the air. Fact

Different folk use different cartridges, one gun uses RC50's, RC40's, Victory Mini Mag, Black Gold, HPE, Alphamax, these vary depending if plastic wads are allowed, these are all proven to work. It is the fibre we are working on at the moment to try and make them as good as plastic, changing the boring of the barrels was an option many of us have taken. The different cartridge manufacturers have then listened to the community that we need to drop plastic and plas discs and get a full fibre wad cartridge that works. They have given various different loads to try for feedback. Dave Carrie for instance will arrive with different slabs from Gamebore that only say Test Load 3 for instance he has no idea what they are but will report back on how he finds them. This is how the Black Gold and Dark Storm range were developed along with others, but they are constantly trying to improve. 

Hull are doing the same as are others, supplying cartridges to test in the field, shells not available yet for sale but if they work will be added to their range.

I don't go into cartridges much but when you are firing a lot you quickly see what is quicker, slower, punchier, kill well. The speeds and patterns have been factory tested so not my concern, but like said above we want the equipment to give a clean kill and we are getting there.

I keep hearing above the scatter gun theory which is true with every shotgun at every range, well I know folk who do there shooting using IC, Skeet Chokes you ask them why it's because they not very good and it increases the chances of hitting something, a lot of the time using 36/6 to ensure they have as much lead in the biggest area when they shoot at anything. These people aren't paying £400/1000 to get the best shells they can to do a job.

Surely that is exactly the same ethos as what everyone is getting concerned about, imagine that pattern at 35yds into a covey of partridge. 

We are working to make something work others are working to kill and injure as much as possible with every shot and I know pigeon shooters on here are guilty of it.

 

I see a lot of envy exists in picking faults with this type of shooting but just as much finger pointing can be done far closer to home but no bothers!

[marsh man]

21 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

 

Blackpowder.

You are far from being a oddity , in fact I would say your thoughts are the same as the majority of the members on this site , a good Pheasant for us would be around the 40 yard mark , this is mainly due to the flatness of our countryside .

One shoot we had a few years ago was in late January in a gale of wind , the Pheasants were pushed from some game cover on the highest point of this field , we were lined out at the bottom of some tall Popular trees , time the birds had reached there full flight they were some of the highest Pheasants we had seen on the estate , with them twisting and turning in the wind I knew they were totally out of my league and I must admit I let one or two fly over without firing a shot as I didn't have a clue where to pull the trigger , we all had a good laugh about it at the end of the day and I was glad that this was a one off event .

[JDog]

The main defender of these 'extreme' pheasants on this thread has stated that he can shoot 80 yard pheasants dead consistently but admits that on a day of 250 to 300 birds 2300 cartridges were fired to achieve that bag. That is an average of 7.6 shots per bird at best and 9.2 shots per bird at worst. That is not something to crow about. If I shot that badly on pigeons and pheasants I would give up shooting altogether.

The same man posted in September and said 'I have a few wine collections'. What does that mean?

This is a credibility issue.

[ditchman]

as i said in the old 2 years ago thread...............its a willy waving exercise........not to be confused with a English day with fine friends good and not so good shots lots of chat and leg pullin with the beaters and pickers ...........

its another harvest in the country year..........

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

Ok the distances are being stretched to suit peoples agenda. 

60yd+ with flushing points tops of trees they fly over all being laser pinged for heights as mentioned so no guess work, laser measurements.

In some places these are in excess of 80yds they fly straight, up and sometimes slightly down it is a ravine with the bank the other side the same height so they fly over like on most extreme shoots they are sent over between two high points they don't need to anything but fly flat. If the top of the tree they fly over in 80yds and the one on the other side is 82yds that bird flew at 80yds over the valley. This is not guesswork.

Pheasants on these drives fall stone dead out the air. Fact

Different folk use different cartridges, one gun uses RC50's, RC40's, Victory Mini Mag, Black Gold, HPE, Alphamax, these vary depending if plastic wads are allowed, these are all proven to work. It is the fibre we are working on at the moment to try and make them as good as plastic, changing the boring of the barrels was an option many of us have taken. The different cartridge manufacturers have then listened to the community that we need to drop plastic and plas discs and get a full fibre wad cartridge that works. They have given various different loads to try for feedback. Dave Carrie for instance will arrive with different slabs from Gamebore that only say Test Load 3 for instance he has no idea what they are but will report back on how he finds them. This is how the Black Gold and Dark Storm range were developed along with others, but they are constantly trying to improve. 

Hull are doing the same as are others, supplying cartridges to test in the field, shells not available yet for sale but if they work will be added to their range.

I don't go into cartridges much but when you are firing a lot you quickly see what is quicker, slower, punchier, kill well. The speeds and patterns have been factory tested so not my concern, but like said above we want the equipment to give a clean kill and we are getting there.

I keep hearing above the scatter gun theory which is true with every shotgun at every range, well I know folk who do there shooting using IC, Skeet Chokes you ask them why it's because they not very good and it increases the chances of hitting something, a lot of the time using 36/6 to ensure they have as much lead in the biggest area when they shoot at anything. These people aren't paying £400/1000 to get the best shells they can to do a job.

Surely that is exactly the same ethos as what everyone is getting concerned about, imagine that pattern at 35yds into a covey of partridge. 

We are working to make something work others are working to kill and injure as much as possible with every shot and I know pigeon shooters on here are guilty of it.

 

I see a lot of envy exists in picking faults with this type of shooting but just as much finger pointing can be done far closer to home but no bothers!

It has been remarked that in providing effective range data we've been using outdated information which in the main refers to pattern density. Now there's not too much you can do with the shot other to ensure that it's round and consistent in size. Yep, copper washing, antimony and the rest will make some difference but as has been said the limiting factor is the abysmal lead shot BC. With ther advent of NTS there were many major studies in the 70s and 80s which altered considerably our understanding of the make up and effectiveness of the various pattern densities. One well known ballistician already mentioned in this actually remarked that we might just have previously got this wrong. What I am sure of though is that the figures used by those who aren't too keen on the activity under discussion are correct and current.

However, one simple fact of the matter is that no one knows more about cartridges than the designer/makers. The problem is of coursr that they don't make the cartridges which are actually made by the accountant/makers. Naturally though there is - or should be - an ongoing development study into improvements to avoid being left behind by the competition. This is where the designers come into their own without a too limiting budget available. These people don't just fiddle - the money boys won't accept that for a start -  but have a target performance in  mind.

We keep hearing tales of weekly developments but there's no substance to it. Perhaps someone on that side of the debate from the various names and companies mentioned could ascertain what sort of maximum range these guys are looking at and ask what would be the down range pattern density and energy requirements to achieve their objective. After all, there must be one as no money man worth his salt is going to authorise unlimeted funds for an unspecified objective.

If this could be done it would be handy because then we really could not be considered to be outdated but truly current.

 

[Docleo]

2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

If the top of the tree they fly over in 80yds and the one on the other side is 82yds that bird flew at 80yds over the valley. This is not guesswork.

I immagine that for this extreme shoot the guns are in a valley and the pheasants flight between two high points, something like two hills, correct?

If you mesure the "height" of the hill from the valley (is there a different way?) you are not mesuring the actual height but the distance between you and the high point of the hill. It is a distance because you're not able to take a perpendicular mesurment (there is a slope). If the slope of the hill is 50 degrees (very steep) and you're mesurment says 80 yrds, when the birds is perpendicular on your head it would be 62 yrds high (if my math is correct 🤔)

I'm just trying to understand, really. Did I assumed something wrong?

 

 

 

[Hamster]

I’ve often said I’d shoot competition registered clays with any number of 35+ years old shells including Victory’s budget offering called Leader and of course their rather superb 550 which were available in khaki 7.5’s and red cased 8’s - as for anything with Winchester written on it 🥰 Silvers, Trap 100/200 and Winners, I shot for many years (as many might remember so did GD) Kent Champions which despite being a tad on the pedestrian side made a Legend of the latter even back then.

What I’m trying to say is there is precious little in shells today that wasn’t available 4 decades ago, bar maybe the odd sheep wool wads 😒 but then we had felt wads to counter that !  

If you point it right it’ll drop or break with most shells, up to what is considered the remit of scatter guns and beyond 70 yards you’re on a hiding to nothing - or luck. 

[JohnfromUK]

On 12/11/2019 at 13:35, Blackpowder said:

I have been shooting now for 60 years plus.  Am I an oddity that I dont want 80 yard high pheasants, 36gr  4 shot cartridges.   Today , as always I am happy to shoot with a classic Scottish shot gun 130 years old firing 28 gr of 6 shot over a fibre yard at 35  to 40 yard birds suit me fine thank you.   On the modest shoots where I am a member a 40yd bird is a good one, I see plenty shot at under that with 32gr plastic wads through tight choked barrels rendering the  meat unfit for consumption.

 

Blackpowder.

I'm with you on this as well (except that my gun isn't Scottish!)

[rbrowning2]

4 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Ok the distances are being stretched to suit peoples agenda. 

60yd+ with flushing points tops of trees they fly over all being laser pinged for heights as mentioned so no guess work, laser measurements.

In some places these are in excess of 80yds they fly straight, up and sometimes slightly down it is a ravine with the bank the other side the same height so they fly over like on most extreme shoots they are sent over between two high points they don't need to anything but fly flat. If the top of the tree they fly over in 80yds and the one on the other side is 82yds that bird flew at 80yds over the valley. This is not guesswork.

Pheasants on these drives fall stone dead out the air. Fact

Different folk use different cartridges, one gun uses RC50's, RC40's, Victory Mini Mag, Black Gold, HPE, Alphamax, these vary depending if plastic wads are allowed, these are all proven to work. It is the fibre we are working on at the moment to try and make them as good as plastic, changing the boring of the barrels was an option many of us have taken. The different cartridge manufacturers have then listened to the community that we need to drop plastic and plas discs and get a full fibre wad cartridge that works. They have given various different loads to try for feedback. Dave Carrie for instance will arrive with different slabs from Gamebore that only say Test Load 3 for instance he has no idea what they are but will report back on how he finds them. This is how the Black Gold and Dark Storm range were developed along with others, but they are constantly trying to improve. 

Hull are doing the same as are others, supplying cartridges to test in the field, shells not available yet for sale but if they work will be added to their range.

I don't go into cartridges much but when you are firing a lot you quickly see what is quicker, slower, punchier, kill well. The speeds and patterns have been factory tested so not my concern, but like said above we want the equipment to give a clean kill and we are getting there.

I keep hearing above the scatter gun theory which is true with every shotgun at every range, well I know folk who do there shooting using IC, Skeet Chokes you ask them why it's because they not very good and it increases the chances of hitting something, a lot of the time using 36/6 to ensure they have as much lead in the biggest area when they shoot at anything. These people aren't paying £400/1000 to get the best shells they can to do a job.

Surely that is exactly the same ethos as what everyone is getting concerned about, imagine that pattern at 35yds into a covey of partridge. 

We are working to make something work others are working to kill and injure as much as possible with every shot and I know pigeon shooters on here are guilty of it.

 

I see a lot of envy exists in picking faults with this type of shooting but just as much finger pointing can be done far closer to home but no bothers!

Perrazzishot, I really do think you should take the opportunity to read up about internal and external ballistics, shotguns have been about a long time and the data is reliable.

when you are firing a lot you quickly see what is quicker, slower, punchier, kill well. The speeds and patterns have been factory tested so not my concern.

Quicker, slower and punchier what does this really mean?

Punchier is due to momentum which is due to the muzzle velocity and weight of the cartridge pay load, so yes faster and or heavier loads with be punchier. But that means nothing down range because as has already been said the little round lead pellet has a dreadful Ballistic Coefficient and hence loses velocity very quickly. So even for big shot like size 3 even if the shot leaves the muzzle at 1450ft/sec or 1150ft second has travelled around 40yards it will be doing virtually the same velocity with the same energy.

This is why BB shot bounced of the card target in the video. So how you think you can differentiate between a quicker, slower cartridge at 80yards it is all in the mind just because the one with the higher muzzle velocity was punchier.

then you go on to say they are killing these birds at 80yards with IC and Skeet chokes yet it is difficult to hit a cardboard target with full choke, one can only guess at what the pattern must be like at 80yards using such open chokes. RC50 will certainly be needed.

finally why are you and the cartridge manufacture even bothering to try and develop a all fibre lead shot cartridge for this when next year due to market forces all game that is to be sold will need to be shot with non-toxic shot. And very likely within two years we will see a complete ban on all lead shot and ammunition due to compliance with new EU laws.

I could see some sense to all this if you were hear selling the merit of some new supper non-toxic cartridge that was being tested at these extreme shoot days but sadly you are not.

 

[grrclark]

1 minute ago, Hamster said:

I’ve often said I’d shoot competition registered clays with any number of 35+ years old shells including Victory’s budget offering called Leader and of course their rather superb 550 which were available in khaki 7.5’s and red cased 8’s - as for anything with Winchester written on it 🥰 Silvers, Trap 100/200 and Winners, I shot for many years (as many might remember so did GD) Kent Champions which despite being a tad on the pedestrian side made a Legend of the latter even back then.

What I’m trying to say is there is precious little in shells today that wasn’t available 4 decades ago, bar maybe the odd sheep wool wads 😒 but then we had felt wads to counter that !  

If you point it right it’ll drop or break with most shells, up to what is considered the remit of scatter guns and beyond 70 yards you’re on a hiding to nothing - or luck. 

I have heard a quote attributed to Arnie Palmer about those Kent Champions at the time GD was shooting them and winning most events he shot in.  After hearing loads of complaints from fellow shots about how slow/poor they were, Arnie's response was along the lines of 'If Kent Champions are rubbish then God help us if George ever gets a good cartridge'

 

[Perazzishot]

then you go on to say they are killing these birds at 80yards with IC and Skeet chokes yet it is difficult to hit a cardboard target with full choke, one can only guess at what the pattern must be like at 80yards using such open chokes. RC50 will certainly be needed.

No I did not, you are twisting it to suit your own agenda. I said I know folk who do their shooting. (no mention of high bird shooting)

So what are peoples thoughts on the the Southern Shoot where they shoot 2000 partridge each day at 30 yards high I suppose that is better for our sport. 

You still get teams of guns there shooting there at 6-9:1 because you get the London boys days out to it where they can afford it and blaze all day and actually stand a chance of hitting something?

[wymberley]

57 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

then you go on to say they are killing these birds at 80yards with IC and Skeet chokes yet it is difficult to hit a cardboard target with full choke, one can only guess at what the pattern must be like at 80yards using such open chokes. RC50 will certainly be needed.

No I did not, you are twisting it to suit your own agenda. I said I know folk who do their shooting. (no mention of high bird shooting)

So what are peoples thoughts on the the Southern Shoot where they shoot 2000 partridge each day at 30 yards high I suppose that is better for our sport. 

You still get teams of guns there shooting there at 6-9:1 because you get the London boys days out to it where they can afford it and blaze all day and actually stand a chance of hitting something?

I really don't know what to make of that. However on reading your post one thought immediately jumped out at me and athough I'm not for one minute saying that this is one of them - see my first sentence - that thought was, 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

[Perazzishot]

That is the point wymberley, the idea of this totally horrifies me, and where I was leading with the comments on scatter guns which has been ignored almost entirely and peoples ethics. But when you have coveys of birds sent over guns the likelihood of pricking birds is far higher than high pheasants. Yet this is the stick being used to say high birds shooting causes pricked and injured birds and will get shooting banned. Yet the people going to these shoots are doing everything they can to go with the best of equipment to reduce this risk.

Yet someone going on a driven partridge shoot or pigeon shoot can go out with open chokes 26" barrels 36g/6s  (I've seen it) and shoot at coveys of partridge or flocks of incoming pigeons but this is never mentioned. You will never see 2 or 3 high pheasants fall out the sky for a single shot but have seen it countless times with pigeons, partridges and teal.

Picking a single pheasant in the sky with space all around it, and folding it cleanly is the desire but also having the ability along with the pickers up to see it being hit and ensuring it is picked up.

[CharlieT]

I am surrounded by some of the finest high bird shoots in the country, so am able, every day throughout the season, to watch many of the high bird specialists in action.

As has been said, most of these guns shoot 3 or 4 days a week, week in week out and are highly proficient. Without naming individuals it is not uncommon for the best guns to consistently, day in day out, to maintain a cartridge to bird ratio of 2.5 to 1 and others achieving 3/3.5 to 1. 

I really can see anything morally wrong with high bird shoots, we as guns strive to kill as humanely as possible, the problem arises when guns pull the trigger at a bird they are not competent enough to kill. Something we even see on shoots producing 35-40 yard birds, but not often on true high bird shoots as the keeper will very quickly sum up the gun's ability  and adjust the drives to the guns competence.

 

 

 

[button]

6 hours ago, JDog said:

The main defender of these 'extreme' pheasants on this thread has stated that he can shoot 80 yard pheasants dead consistently but admits that on a day of 250 to 300 birds 2300 cartridges were fired to achieve that bag. That is an average of 7.6 shots per bird at best and 9.2 shots per bird at worst. That is not something to crow about. If I shot that badly on pigeons and pheasants I would give up shooting altogether.

The same man posted in September and said 'I have a few wine collections'. What does that mean?

This is a credibility issue.

While I am not going to argue with the simple mathematics, that only gives an average across the team not individuals 

As for the "wine collections" - petty springs to mind, but it's obviously bothered you to remember a post from September, I couldn't remember what I read last week

4 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

I am surrounded by some of the finest high bird shoots in the country, so am able, every day throughout the season, to watch many of the high bird specialists in action.

As has been said, most of these guns shoot 3 or 4 days a week, week in week out and are highly proficient. Without naming individuals it is not uncommon for the best guns to consistently, day in day out, to maintain a cartridge to bird ratio of 2.5 to 1 and others achieving 3/3.5 to 1. 

I really can see anything morally wrong with high bird shoots, we as guns strive to kill as humanely as possible, the problem arises when guns pull the trigger at a bird they are not competent enough to kill. Something we even see on shoots producing 35-40 yard birds, but not often on true high bird shoots as the keeper will very quickly sum up the gun's ability  and adjust the drives to the guns competence.

 

 

 

Do you mind me asking what kind of ranges you would estimate the birds been shot at?

[Perazzishot]

Button

He is in Exmoor, Molland and West Molland have the capabilities to put birds over you out of shot on many of their drives, they have some of the highest drives in the country and a good few others which you can't get on are just as high. Like he says they adjust the drives or the stands to suit the guns capabilities.

 

Very good shoots.

[Perazzishot]

6 hours ago, JDog said:

The main defender of these 'extreme' pheasants on this thread has stated that he can shoot 80 yard pheasants dead consistently but admits that on a day of 250 to 300 birds 2300 cartridges were fired to achieve that bag. That is an average of 7.6 shots per bird at best and 9.2 shots per bird at worst. That is not something to crow about. If I shot that badly on pigeons and pheasants I would give up shooting altogether.

The same man posted in September and said 'I have a few wine collections'. What does that mean?

This is a credibility issue.

3 times I've already said 1 gun fired 300 for zero (no dead, no pricked) so that brings the average down to 2000 shots for 300 6.6:1 for the other 8 team members.

Still making things up to suit the agenda really is bitter! As for the wine I'm sure that was to do with something totally different what relevance it has here just displays a degree of contempt on your part.