Extreme pheasant shooting

[motty]

5 hours ago, button said:

This would suggest a gun/cartridge capable of bringing the high ones down has been found

 

After watching this, I can now say that it looked like many were pricked or not cleanly killed. Some of the birds cleanly killed by the guy being filmed looked a lot lower than 80 yards. Some of the birds he was taking on looked, quite frankly, ridiculous. Some of those crossers he attempted looked more like 100 yards.

Can someone tell me how the shots are counted on these days.

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, GingerCat said:

As has been said earlier - this is a willy waving exercise.

This article also agrees 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/how-not-to-waste-a-shot-91293

The article is indeed a reflection of the debate being pseudo scientific in itself it  uses a moving feast of 115 pellets being suitable earlier in the article to 86 being suitable later in the article to justify its conclusions which are skewed in that they suggest by default a 410 with 18g no6 and half choke is sufficent for a 45 yard pheasant at 86 pellets.

I am also not convinced that the loss of pattern density increases at an increasing rate at distance as I would expect that rate to fall as the damaged pellets fall out of pattern but the core of round pellets stays relatively true and whilst pattern is indeed becoming more sparse, the rate of pattern density reduction should fall.

Traditionally, 32g no6 through cyl gives 114 pellets in 30 inch circle at 40 yards, i am not sure many would recommend this combination as acceptable even though it meets Rosters  minimums ? 

With Imp cyl, this improves to 152 pellets and i would suggest this is reasonably accepted as being the common first barrel as being adequate for pheasants and for second barrel 1/2 choke for reaching out to 45 yards (coincidently also 152 pellets) on a traditional game gun.

 

Coming at it from the other direction calculating vital areas, total areas and  average exposed area wirh required strikes and to give 99% confidence of a clean kill, gives me the following:-

Species    Pellets in 30"
canada    70
Greylag    85
Mallard    140
Pheasant    150
Widgeon    160
Pigeon/Partridge    180
Teal/Woodcock    190
Dove    200
Snipe    230

Matching any of the above derived numbers both from personal experience and anecdotal evidence match up quite wel and reflected in traditional British game gun and wildfowl guns, flighting mallard 1 1/4 no5 through half choke at 45 or full at 50 gives 139 and 136 pellets respectively, 28g no7 for pigeon at 40 yards and 45 yards gives 179 pellets through imp cyl and half, grey goose, 1 1/4 no 3  full choke 86 pellets or 50g no1 also full choke and also 86 pellets, even 18g of no7 through 410 at imp cyl at 30yds and half choke at 35 yards gives  152 and 151 pellets respectively etc

 

I will leave it there for now!

[rbrowning2]

Also today most size 6 shot is not UK size 2.6mm but continental size 5.5 or 2.7mm so a few less pellets in the cartridge to start with.

Always best to check exactly what is within your cartridges especially if pushing to the limits, as I have found they may not be what’s written on the box.

Been an interesting discussion, good shooting.

 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Also today most size 6 shot is not UK size 2.6mm but continental size 5.5 or 2.7mm so a few less pellets in the cartridge to start with.

Always best to check exactly what is within your cartridges especially if pushing to the limits, as I have found they may not be what’s written on the box.

Been an interesting discussion, good shooting.

 

I've recently been discovering the same in 7s except in this case in the main the pellets are smaller which does wonders for your pattern but adversely affects your energy.

[wymberley]

If this thread has done anything it's possibly fair to say that it is showing the advantage of knowing how your gun patterns. As we progressed, three degrees of the certainty of a clean kill were expressed - 95, 90 and 99 in percentage terms. The quoted definition of a gun's maximum effective range recognises the inability of a shotgun to provide a definite 100% certainty so hence the word, "reasonable" is used. Each and everyone has their own idea of 'reasonable'. While the Ballistic Research Laboratory was doing the study commissioned by Defra, Dr Roger Giblin of the Electronics Dept. at University College London - who headed up the Laboratory -  together with some of his students noted that a shotgun pattern coincided nicely with the Theory of Probability and was kind enough to let me have the graph below which reflected the difficulty in achieving that 100%. We in the UK have suffered from a misunderstanding regarding the 3 pellets -  that we all know about - for many years. It is not 3 pellets on average, but a minimum of 3 pellets on each shot that is required. Any BASC member that cares to look will realise that the 3 pellet strike at a 95% certainty coincides exactly with their (BASC) pattern test procedure lethal requirement of 6 strikes.

If you track up the H (hit) equal or greater than 3 graph to the 95% chance level, it will be seen that the average number of hits required to achieve that is 6. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Are there any pattern plates where you could shoot over 90 yards?

[rbrowning2]

33 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Are there any pattern plates where you could shoot over 90 yards?

Me thinks, Probably not, as most sane people would not consider raising a shotgun to a 90yard target, but would be interesting to set a driven clay on a hill/cliff such that it presented such a target and try some of the various cartridges mentioned. Bet if done at a CPSA event you would get some interesting comments.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by rbrowning2

[figgy]

The fella shooting in the Jonathan Magee films loader works at West Midlands shooting ground Hodnet and patterns his guns with various cartridges and shot to get the best at ranges for drives.  He talks about it one of his videos. In some videos you can see D Carrie on the same days 

Edited November 14, 2019 by figgy

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

but would be interesting to set a driven clay on a hill/cliff such that it presented such a target and try some of the various cartridges mentioned

George Digweed (I think it was he?) did something a bit like this - just trying distance (no idea what cartridge was used) and you can break clays at a remarkable distance fairly consistently - there is a Youtube of it.  I have seen a friend of mine who is a very good shot do so at maybe 70+ yards and break clays reliably.  However, penetration to cleanly kill a live quarry is a different matter.

[rbrowning2]

May be we have invented a new clay shooting discipline, extreme clays, but I have watch a lot miss and hit driven clays from the 140ft tower at westlands country park (me included, need more practice) but yet to see anybody shoot ten Consecutive clays from the tower without missing and that is only 47yards now picture that at 80 or 90 yards or 270ft. 

Extreme clays anybody?

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by rbrowning2

[grrclark]

24 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

May be we have invented a new clay shooting discipline, extreme clays, but I have watch a lot miss and hit driven clays from the 140ft tower at westlands country park (me included, need more practice) but yet to see anybody shoot ten Consecutive clays from the tower without missing and that is only 47yards now picture that at 80 or 90 yards or 270ft. 

Extreme clays anybody?

I posted about this before, next year there will definitely be an extreme clay fun comp at National Shooting Centre Scotland.  It won’t be driven as they cannot throw driven at that height, but it will be a big slow looping target showing full face.

When that happens I will post up the results.

[Perazzishot]

 

🤷🏼‍♂️

Edited November 14, 2019 by Perazzishot

[Whitebridges]

A very enjoyable video, thanks for sharing. 

Just goes to show how the world keeps moving on. Look at those cannon Krieghoff  "game guns" ! Not to my taste with their big and ugly screw in chokes. I bet they weigh close on 9lbs.

Yellow 12 bore cartridges - i don't like anything in yellow that isn't a 20 bore. Please remember to wear a tie next time.

I bet a very good shot using and ounce of Eley Impax through a proper Holland and Holland game gun wouldn't have touched a feather on those birds, unless of course you can tell me otherwise. 

I'd call this progress but it's not exactly my kind of thing.           

[Dave at kelton]

17 hours ago, motty said:

After watching this, I can now say that it looked like many were pricked or not cleanly killed. Some of the birds cleanly killed by the guy being filmed looked a lot lower than 80 yards. Some of the birds he was taking on looked, quite frankly, ridiculous. Some of those crossers he attempted looked more like 100 yards.

Can someone tell me how the shots are counted on these days.

All cartridges are collected and counted

[Perazzishot]

6 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

All cartridges are collected and counted

Was a lot yesterday Dave 🙄😂

[Dave at kelton]

24 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Was a lot yesterday Dave 🙄😂

Unfortunately a day in London on business but heard it went well when out today!

[Smokersmith]

East of England did a teal challenge over the summer with stands from 50 to 120 yards back from a single trap. If I remember well it was open for around 3 months, and you progressively got more points as you went further back. 12 targets and you could choose at what distance and therefore points you could get. I had one go on the last weekend it was open and ended with 8 ex 12 all taken from the 80 yard mark. 28g Fiocchi Golden Trap 7.5’s. Several of them were convincingly broken and if they run it again next year I’ll try to find them at 90. The beauty was my old man had around a dozen goes over the weeks and my single score tied with his for 2nd place🤣.

[Smokersmith]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

Extreme clays anybody?

If only Grimsthorpe did more FITASC 👍👍

[B725]

I never thought that there would be this many replies and it's been interesting. I would like to watch some of the really high bird shooting for real but as for me having a go it's beyond my capabilities. 

[Perazzishot]

Cumbria had a Long Range challenge this season I'm sure Scully will correct me but it was won on 120m teal with a fibre wad 28g 7.5 Kent Velocity. The guy hit it twice with his 3 targets and it proper broke!

 

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Cumbria had a Long Range challenge this season I'm sure Scully will correct me but it was won on 120m teal with a fibre wad 28g 7.5 Kent Velocity. The guy hit it twice with his 3 targets and it proper broke!

 

I’ll make sure we can get as far back as 130yds at NSC then.

[Perazzishot]

38 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I’ll make sure we can get as far back as 130yds at NSC then.

What was that looper set for the super sporting in the bomb pit? 80yards?

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

What was that looper set for the super sporting in the bomb pit? 80yards?

Nah, there was nothing at that range in that shoot, in fact there has never been an 80yd doo at NSC in any comp.

[GingerCat]

Breaking a brittle clay and killing a bird are 2 very different things, for a start the clay won't carry on and die in pain from being pricked due to a careless shot at a silly range. 

It's clear from this thread that there are a few that simple don't care about what's sporting or humane and just want bragging rights. 

Not my cup of tea. 

[andrewluke]

20 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Breaking a brittle clay and killing a bird are 2 very different things, for a start the clay won't carry on and die in pain from being pricked due to a careless shot at a silly range. 

It's clear from this thread that there are a few that simple don't care about what's sporting or humane and just want bragging rights. 

Not my cup of tea.