Dave-G Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 It's reading as very likely subjudice so we'll just have to be patient for a more detailed explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minghis Posted December 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, Dave-G said: It's reading as very likely subjudice so we'll just have to be patient for a more detailed explanation. Exactly. Now that I have probably said enough without causing myself or anyone any distress either legal or not, and having had some assurance that it is possible for the rifle to fire if it was dropped I'll leave it there. I appreciate those who offered something to assist. Thank you, it has helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 18 minutes ago, Scully said: I’m in the definitely yes camp, which is why I never trust safeties under any circumstances. There is a difference between never trusting a safety and never using one. I would never rely on one, but ALWAYS use one until ready to fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjimlad Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 In a criminal investigation these things are usually looked at by expert witnesses - for the defence and also for the prosecution. Tests are performed in controlled conditions & properly documented. It's often claimed that "it just went off" & looking at the poor state of some of the firearms used in crime, that may well have been what happened in some instances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjaferret Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Bullet placement would and could answer quite a lot , angle of entry . Dropped on hard or soft ground , angle dropped anything where it was dropped that could perhaps squeeze the trigger ? Probably a chance in a million, but reasonable doubt ? etc etc etc.......To be honest my opinion, gun would not go off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 37 minutes ago, JJsDad said: The OP is saying the safety was off, i.e: in the ready to fire condition. Of course he did, my apologies. Saying that it wouldn’t surprise me to discover a dropped gun went off even with the safety on; some safeties only block the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 I knew somebody that was killed accidentally by dropping an Anschutz Hornet. Police took it away and found it would fire if dropped. It was scrap when they returned it, looked as if they had dropped it from a rooftop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, London Best said: There is a difference between never trusting a safety and never using one. I would never rely on one, but ALWAYS use one until ready to fire. I have never used a safety on a rifle, and the only time I’ve used one on a shotgun was when I owned a sxs and had forgotten it was an auto safety, which none of my guns have. Edited to add: The only gun I can remember using a safety on was a Colt 1911 .45ACP, which we used to carry cocked and locked for comp’s. Edited December 5, 2019 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) i had a BRNO 7.62 with a set trigger.........off safe with the trigger set.... it was dangerous to say the least................if the gun was off safe and chambered and a smooth light pull a slight knock could well cause it to discharge............ Edited December 5, 2019 by ditchman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) @ Scully: I still don’ think you have any justification for never using one. We must agree to differ. Edited December 5, 2019 by London Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, ditchman said: i had a BRNO 7.62 with a set trigger.........off safe it was dangerous to say the lease................if the gun was off safe and chambered and a smooth light pull a slight knock could well cause it to discharge............ I'm sure I've used that saying to my mrs ... "just a light pull and it could discharge" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, Lloyd90 said: I'm sure I've used that saying to my mrs ... "just a light pull and it could discharge" you dirty boy .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 1 minute ago, London Best said: I still don’ think you have any justification for never using one. We must agree to differ. My justification is that safeties can give the user the impression their gun is safe. Nothing is safer than an empty chamber or a broken gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 My pet hate is to see people stand with a broken gun with a manual safety on fire, who then slam it shut when a bird approaches, almost always bringing barrels up to the stock straight through approaching beaters. If the gun is going to discharge it will most likely be when slammed shut. I don’t care what anyone says, it is just not safe. Stand with the gun closed and pointing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartyboy Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, Scully said: My justification is that safeties can give the user the impression their gun is safe. Nothing is safer than an empty chamber or a broken gun. I can understand the logic in that, but surely there must be times that you're standing with gun loaded and closed ie at a peg or similar. To me, a safety catch is the last on a long list of safety features. The most important safety feature is the person using the gun and the safe handling of that gun. However, a safety is a feature that should be encouraged to be used and not dismissed out of hand? And always understood not to be infallible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 With the good old brooks trigger kit for a CZ .22 (I’m sure it was recommended) to give the stock a bang on the floor to check for safety (nothing in it of course). So I presume it can happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 29 minutes ago, London Best said: My pet hate is to see people stand with a broken gun with a manual safety on fire, who then slam it shut when a bird approaches, almost always bringing barrels up to the stock straight through approaching beaters. If the gun is going to discharge it will most likely be when slammed shut. I don’t care what anyone says, it is just not safe. Stand with the gun closed and pointing up. My pet hate is hearing ‘ it’s ok, the safeties on.’ Unless your safety mechanism mechanically prevents the hammers from striking the primers, then not even an auto safety will prevent your gun going off when it’s ‘slammed’ shut if it’s faulty. As far as I know most shotgun safeties only apply to the trigger, and not the hammers. What happens if you only fire one shot, and need to reload? I’m assuming you turn around to reload regardless of how busy your peg is. Muzzle aware and fingers off triggers and you can’t go wrong....unless you drop it of course, then that safety is no guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) I knew a guy who had a gun that once fired when he closed the action .we were together in a field following good safety practice .he lifted butt to the barrel and it discharged 4 ft in front of him ,into the ground .safety was on First time it was a real shock. With a bit of investigation we figured out why it happed .and managed to instigate it a few more times under a very controlled environment. We fixed the issue and prevented it from ever happening again . Point is it can happen .So muzzle awareness has to be 100 % correct 100 % of the time . As said a negligent discharge is most likley when closing a gun or closing the bolt . Edited December 5, 2019 by Ultrastu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Yes of course if dropped a rifle could fire. I remember being sat 5 yards from an SA80 that fired while no one was touching it as the sear gave way. anything is possible something are just unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 3 hours ago, wymberley said: Having worked either in or with HM's Forces for over 30 years, I'm in the ND camp. The only time a safety catch should be in the OFF position is when there is an expectation of an imminent shot. Should the catch be in that position at any other time and the rifle was dropped even unintentionally then unfortunately ND it was. Not easy if the gun doesn't have a safety. Not that that has much bearing on the ops question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 1 minute ago, bluesj said: Not easy if the gun doesn't have a safety. Not that that has much bearing on the ops question. No bearing what-so-ever. Murphy has it and as they normally go hand in glove, it is to be hoped that on this occasion Sod was absent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob525 Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 2 hours ago, London Best said: My pet hate is to see people stand with a broken gun with a manual safety on fire, who then slam it shut when a bird approaches, almost always bringing barrels up to the stock straight through approaching beaters. If the gun is going to discharge it will most likely be when slammed shut. I don’t care what anyone says, it is just not safe. Stand with the gun closed and pointing up. I agree with this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Majority of times it's caused by tinkering by unqualified incompetent so called wannabe gunsmiths. Fiddle about with tbe trigger pull,weight and its hanging on the sear by a gnats pubic,, it will likely fire. And there lies the most like answer to the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 I was out lamping after rabbits for a mate who had a pub, only ever loaded when I was ready to shoot, as I closed the bolt ( cz452 ) it fired, turned out the sear was knackered, it was to early to pack in so we carried on rather carefully, ended up with 69 for a 100shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted December 5, 2019 Report Share Posted December 5, 2019 Muck and rust can cause this too. Doesn’t have to be a worn sear or too fine adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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