Labour MP for Heanor is glad BJ has the virus

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, TRINITY said:

 You can see it with the Irish who still bang on about Oliver Cromwell, William of orange etc. 

 

Its the same with the Scots, still bearing a grudge because of things that happened hundreds of years ago, and mostly things they started

[AVB]

Apparently she has now been suspended by the legal firm where she works as a paralegal. It looking like it could be a costly tweet. 

[grrclark]

4 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Its the same with the Scots, still bearing a grudge because of things that happened hundreds of years ago, and mostly things they started

Nah, no grudge on our side, we just lament that so many of the English are dull witted fools that make disparaging generalist remarks about the Scots.

[grrclark]

12 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Hmmn.Why? The government response was tardy. That's why, for example,  it has taken so long to get proper PPE to health workers on the front line. How you can deduce from that simple observation with a wish of personal harm on the Prime Minister is beyond me. But never mind...

And the reason I mentioned it, was that it might possibly be the cause of high feelings which gave rise to the woman's stupid statement. Nothing to do with my own personal view of Johnson at all. 

Justify the bit in bold with evidence.

I shall give you an example of scale for illustration, the Scottish NHS normally buy c.30,000 disposable masks per month which has been sufficient for everything they have ever done up to this crisis.  In response to coronavirus they placed an order for c.15,000,000.  In what world of contingency planning do you think that sort of uptick would ever equate to reasonable surplus before the event?

You talk about planning as though it is a simple paper exercise without any apparent concept of the scale of what it means in practical terms throughout an extremely long and often global supply chain that has come under unprecedented pressure throughout its length, for every country.  Reference Trump's comments to 3M recently.

The Nightingale hospital in Scotland will have 2 tons of laundry every single day, that is what is being planned for and needs to be factored in to the supply chain and with a 4 day turnaround on laundry that means c.22 tons of bed linen that had to be sourced on demand because in no reasonable contingency planning scenario would the NHS plan for an uptick of 1000 beds within a 2 week window.  2 tons of extra laundry capacity every day needs to be found somewhere and that supply chain doesn't have that sort of overhead in capacity either.

All of that is relatively trivial and just a tiny element of what is required, but it is so easy to throw rocks at how tardy or rubbish the organisation has been based on what sensation seeking journalists or attention hungry commentators might say.

[Danger-Mouse]

Booted out of the Labour Party. Sacked from her job. Petition to remove her from office has over 5,000 signatures.

Karma can be a bitch!

[Good shot?]

13 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

That's kind of my point, subtly your comment is trying to justify it.

Hinting there is a reason, no matter how misguided it is, for the comments she made.

it's similar to defending a Fox in a chicken shed by saying it has cubs to feed.IMO. 

Her comment is indefensible.

[Scully]

9 hours ago, grrclark said:

Nah, no grudge on our side, we just lament that so many of the English are dull witted fools that make disparaging generalist remarks about the Scots.

😂

8 hours ago, grrclark said:

Justify the bit in bold with evidence.

I shall give you an example of scale for illustration, the Scottish NHS normally buy c.30,000 disposable masks per month which has been sufficient for everything they have ever done up to this crisis.  In response to coronavirus they placed an order for c.15,000,000.  In what world of contingency planning do you think that sort of uptick would ever equate to reasonable surplus before the event?

You talk about planning as though it is a simple paper exercise without any apparent concept of the scale of what it means in practical terms throughout an extremely long and often global supply chain that has come under unprecedented pressure throughout its length, for every country.  Reference Trump's comments to 3M recently.

The Nightingale hospital in Scotland will have 2 tons of laundry every single day, that is what is being planned for and needs to be factored in to the supply chain and with a 4 day turnaround on laundry that means c.22 tons of bed linen that had to be sourced on demand because in no reasonable contingency planning scenario would the NHS plan for an uptick of 1000 beds within a 2 week window.  2 tons of extra laundry capacity every day needs to be found somewhere and that supply chain doesn't have that sort of overhead in capacity either.

All of that is relatively trivial and just a tiny element of what is required, but it is so easy to throw rocks at how tardy or rubbish the organisation has been based on what sensation seeking journalists or attention hungry commentators might say.

Thankyou. It was a statement I was going to question, but as always you have done it much better than I could have done. 

[old man]

Maybe a lot of unhelpful division here? 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A small amount of good sense has been displayed;

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52224325

[Retsdon]

16 hours ago, grrclark said:

Justify the bit in bold with evidence.

OK, when I say that the government's response was slow, understand that I don't necessarily mean that in the same circumstances any government's response would have been much quicker. But it was slow. And there are reasons for that - most of which are not culpable reasons. 

The timeline:

1) Following the 2003 SARS outbreak, in 2005  WHO mandates all governments to draw up domestic contingency plans to deal with a pandemic. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/246107/9789241580496-eng.pdf?sequence=1

2) There follows a series of UK and EU intitiatives and statements of intent from Blair's time onward, culminating in all these things being condensed into the Scientific Summary of Pandemic Influenza & its Mitigation https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/215666/dh_125333.pdf under Cameron

3) The plan gets reassessed and updated in 2014 as the 'Pandemic Influenza Response Plan https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/344695/PI_Response_Plan_13_Aug.pdf 

And this is the.battle-plan that Johnson's government was relying on to combat the CoV  pandemic. The problem is (for everyone including Boris's govenment)  that it was the wrong plan! it was designed for a strong form of flu virus, - and the objective of the plan was to mitigate the worst of an outbreak until a vaccine came along (and provided the famed 'herd immunity'). Defeatism  - as in not containing the virus - was built in. "There is...no scientific rationale to support the notion that such a pandemic in the UK could successfully be 'contained' by currently-available interventions". In other words the plan started with the premise that any attempt to snuff out the epidemic Wuhan style was a non-starter.

And so here we are. What happened was that the 'herd immunity' thing -  in the original plan  to be provided by the arrival of a vaccine - suddenly looked like a hellish miscalculation and so the government was forced to row backwards furiously while making contingency plans on the hoof. And here we are.

Was the government's response to CoV-19 tardy? Yes, it was - but only because it was relying on 'scientific advice' (it's significant that many of the same people responsible for the inadequate 2011 plan have been the ones advising the government). 

In short, I'm not blaming the government for being slow even if they were. But  - to go back to my original post - that doesn't mean that others who perhaps don't have the leisure time or inclination to dig into history (like the wifey from Heanor ) are going to be so fair. 

On all political sides, if the opposition is holding the ball when the mess hits the fan, people will try and make hay from it. (how's that for mixed metaphors!) Unfortunately for her the hay came back and bit her in the leg!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[grrclark]

Excellent post Retsdon, thanks for sharing that detail and i fully understand where you are coming from.

[Dave-G]

Yet another hate post - from a Labour councillor : https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/leeds-councillor-julie-heselwood-claims-18069869?fbclid=IwAR2iofqpW-YecxO6uRRkZojKj8v588HGu7_6moqbVwvDzRa53p5FpiC0R5w

[JohnfromUK]

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Yet another hate post

And another hate post from the left, this time from a Union baron https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8205057/RMT-chief-assistant-says-hopes-Tory-party-gets-coronavirus.html

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

And another hate post from the left, this time from a Union baron https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8205057/RMT-chief-assistant-says-hopes-Tory-party-gets-coronavirus.html

What a scumbag

[Deker]

On 08/04/2020 at 23:09, grrclark said:

Justify the bit in bold with evidence.

I shall give you an example of scale for illustration, the Scottish NHS normally buy c.30,000 disposable masks per month which has been sufficient for everything they have ever done up to this crisis.  In response to coronavirus they placed an order for c.15,000,000.  In what world of contingency planning do you think that sort of uptick would ever equate to reasonable surplus before the event?

You talk about planning as though it is a simple paper exercise without any apparent concept of the scale of what it means in practical terms throughout an extremely long and often global supply chain that has come under unprecedented pressure throughout its length, for every country.  Reference Trump's comments to 3M recently.

The Nightingale hospital in Scotland will have 2 tons of laundry every single day, that is what is being planned for and needs to be factored in to the supply chain and with a 4 day turnaround on laundry that means c.22 tons of bed linen that had to be sourced on demand because in no reasonable contingency planning scenario would the NHS plan for an uptick of 1000 beds within a 2 week window.  2 tons of extra laundry capacity every day needs to be found somewhere and that supply chain doesn't have that sort of overhead in capacity either.

All of that is relatively trivial and just a tiny element of what is required, but it is so easy to throw rocks at how tardy or rubbish the organisation has been based on what sensation seeking journalists or attention hungry commentators might say.

absolutely on the money with this, we'd all be lottery winners with hindsight

[Scully]

Aren’t the despicable comments regarding Boris’ health tantamount to a hate crime? 
I wonder how these people justify such comments to their children or relatives. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Aren’t the despicable comments regarding Boris’ health tantamount to a hate crime?

I think not - you can (apparently) only have hate crime against certain types of minorities (which I won't define, but I think we all know what the rules are).

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think not - you can (apparently) only have hate crime against certain types of minorities (which I won't define, but I think we all know what the rules are).

Sounds about right. 

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

And another hate post from the left, this time from a Union baron https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8205057/RMT-chief-assistant-says-hopes-Tory-party-gets-coronavirus.html

Sadly not overly surprised, I briefly worked in the rail industry during the early days of the Eurostar operation, the depot was full of loony union members. Joined the RMT somewhat under duress and managed one meeting in a local boozer before I quit the job and revoked my union membership. I have no problem with a relative stranger referring to me as brother but draw the line at comrade. Not nice people.

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not nice people.

True usually of people on the extremes of both left and right.  The difference (in my view) is that the extreme right are generally distanced from the mainstream parties - whereas the extreme left are (in recent past times anyway) welcomed by the mainstream 'left of centre' party with welcoming arms and (in the case of the unions) largely finance it and have a BIG part in its 'democratic process'.

[panoma1]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Sadly not overly surprised, I briefly worked in the rail industry during the early days of the Eurostar operation, the depot was full of loony union members. Joined the RMT somewhat under duress and managed one meeting in a local boozer before I quit the job and revoked my union membership. I have no problem with a relative stranger referring to me as brother but draw the line at comrade. Not nice people.

The reason a lot of people join unions and go “Left wing” is directly as a result of how they are treated by, and the conduct of, the employers...........have you worked in local government? The elected politicians make up policy (politically driven often at the expense of it being employee friendly!) and send the senior employed officers, who in turn send their subordinate managers to deliver, if the employees/unions don’t agree, they do this by threats, bullying, intimidation and the “divide and rule” principle.......a lot of these officers have gotten their positions by being “yes men” and bullies......who are supported by ordinary employees, who undermine the interests of other employees by complying and doing as they’re bid, despite union opposition, in an attempt to pull themselves up the “greasy pole”

Where do we imagine the ditty ”The working class can kiss my **** I’ve got the foremans job at last” came from?

The Hard left unions leaders are a political creature those in control created...........most moderate union officials do it because they wish to stand up for the terms, pay and conditions of their fellow employees.....I accept there are also those trade union officials who use  the union for their own personal advancement!

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by panoma1
Predictive text??

[mel b3]

5 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The reason a lot of people join unions and go “Left wing” is directly as a result of how they are treated by, and the conduct of, the employers...........have you worked in local government? The elected politicians make up policy (politically driven often at the expense of it being employee friendly!) and send the senior employed officers, who in turn send their subordinate managers to deliver, if the employees/unions don’t agree, they do this by threats, bullying, intimidation and the “devide and rule” principle.......a lot of these officers have gotten their positions by being “yes men” and bullies......who are supported by ordinary employees, who undermine the interests of other employees by complying and doing as they’re bid, despite union opposition, in an attempt to pull themselves up the “greasy pole”

Where do we imagine the ditty ”The working class can kiss my **** I’ve got the foremans job at last” came from?

The Hard left unions leaders are a political creature those in control created...........most moderate union officials do it because they wish to stand up for the terms, pay and conditions of their fellow employees.....I accept there are also those trade union officials who use  the union for their own personal advancement!

 

You've just summed it up perfectly in one post 👍.

[oldypigeonpopper]

38 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

You've just summed it up perfectly in one post 👍.

hello yes and some going to become Peers ?

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

True usually of people on the extremes of both left and right.  The difference (in my view) is that the extreme right are generally distanced from the mainstream parties - whereas the extreme left are (in recent past times anyway) welcomed by the mainstream 'left of centre' party with welcoming arms and (in the case of the unions) largely finance it and have a BIG part in its 'democratic process'.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

The reason a lot of people join unions and go “Left wing” is directly as a result of how they are treated by, and the conduct of, the employers...........have you worked in local government? The elected politicians make up policy (politically driven often at the expense of it being employee friendly!) and send the senior employed officers, who in turn send their subordinate managers to deliver, if the employees/unions don’t agree, they do this by threats, bullying, intimidation and the “devide and rule” principle.......a lot of these officers have gotten their positions by being “yes men” and bullies......who are supported by ordinary employees, who undermine the interests of other employees by complying and doing as they’re bid, despite union opposition, in an attempt to pull themselves up the “greasy pole”

Where do we imagine the ditty ”The working class can kiss my **** I’ve got the foremans job at last” came from?

The Hard left unions leaders are a political creature those in control created...........most moderate union officials do it because they wish to stand up for the terms, pay and conditions of their fellow employees.....I accept there are also those trade union officials who use  the union for their own personal advancement!

 

To answer your question, no, I'm in my 35th year in "Industry". From my experience local government certainly don't have a monopoly on what you describe above. Whilst I agree with what you're saying I'm not sure how it's relevant here but maybe I've missed the point.

[panoma1]

18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Agreed.

To answer your question, no, I'm in my 35th year in "Industry". From my experience local government certainly don't have a monopoly on what you describe above. Whilst I agree with what you're saying I'm not sure how it's relevant here but maybe I've missed the point.

The relevance, in this instance is, I was responding to your posting regarding your time at Eurostar and “loony union members”.....and trying to suggest why they may have been that way!
I did 20 years in the real world, before I went into local government....and I can honestly say, I never saw, in industry, the degree of bullying and the number of promotions given out (for services rendered) via patronage, that I witnessed in Local Government!

But I agree, we have probably ventured off topic?