Call me sceptical but !!!

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, old'un said:

I wonder if Turkey had one of these documents put through their letter box before manufacture, to me it clearly lays down the spec for all PPE….https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/883334/Essential_Technical_Specifications__5_.pdf

Do you expect a Turkish worker to read a 28 page document that’s written in English? 

[old'un]

13 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Do you expect a Turkish worker to read a 28 page document that’s written in English? 

Well if they did not read it and the items do not come up to spec then who is to blame?

[JohnfromUK]

33 minutes ago, old'un said:

I wonder if Turkey had one of these documents put through their letter box before manufacture, to me it clearly lays down the spec for all PPE….https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/883334/Essential_Technical_Specifications__5_.pdf

I have not heard what specifications they were given.  What seems to be emerging is that the sleeves are the wrong length - and the material is 'incorrect'.  How true that is I don't know.

[old'un]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have not heard what specifications they were given.  What seems to be emerging is that the sleeves are the wrong length - and the material is 'incorrect'.  How true that is I don't know.

True, no one has actually said what the gowns failed on, but according to Selegna all fabric used in the manufacture of the gowns and the factories were certified, what that means I don’t know.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Perhaps they don't like the colour!

[JohnfromUK]

Very plausible suggestion here (though it does come from Brazil who have a somewhat suspect leader) that those countries with mass air travel/connections have been most badly hit  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8296417/Why-countries-shut-borders-Scientists-air-travel-main-driver-COVID-19-outbreaks.html

The UK is a massive air interchange hub.

[7daysinaweek]

6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

True, then it will be the usual NHS procurement channels.  I have no idea what 'emergency surge' procurement capability exists (as the MoD have) for the NHS - if indeed there is any emergency procedure.  I suspect very possibly the 'order' as such was probably correct, but the goods delivered didn't match up to the order - but I'm guessing.

Hi John the nhs does have emergency process for a"emergency surge" in the procurement process. The link below has more information. I know managers who have had to contact procurement in the past re supplies and have been told there is a process for increasing/expediting supplies. I could not tell you the exact process though? 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/539626/Standards_of_Procurement.pdf

I have linked below to a post I have put into another thread on the Gowns queries?

atb

7diaw

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, 7daysinaweek said:

Hi John the nhs does have emergency process for a"emergency surge" in the procurement process.

Thanks for that; the MoD operates a "UOR" system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urgent_Operational_Requirement which enabled a less complex procedure to be folllowed - resulting in much time saving and the ability to be more flexible.

From what I have read (which is only the press, so may not be right) the Turkey purchase may have been done by one NHS area acting out on a limb rather than central procurement.  I can quite understand that these are items that need to be compliant with the specification - not "somewhere near".  It is again reported that the manufacturer had only moved into the field of PPE (being a commercial garment maker making tracksuits and T shirts etc.) as a result of seeing an opportunity from the demand due to Covid-19. 

It is not clear in any press report I have seen whether the items fail to meet a (UK supplied) specification (i.e non compliant goods), or someone simply ordered a product offered (i.e. wrong items ordered) - which since the company hadn't any existing contracts in PPE seems unlikely.  In any event it seems they are unsuitable for use under our standards.

[7daysinaweek]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thanks for that; the MoD operates a "UOR" system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urgent_Operational_Requirement which enabled a less complex procedure to be folllowed - resulting in much time saving and the ability to be more flexible.

From what I have read (which is only the press, so may not be right) the Turkey purchase may have been done by one NHS area acting out on a limb rather than central procurement.  I can quite understand that these are items that need to be compliant with the specification - not "somewhere near".  It is again reported that the manufacturer had only moved into the field of PPE (being a commercial garment maker making tracksuits and T shirts etc.) as a result of seeing an opportunity from the demand due to Covid-19. 

It is not clear in any press report I have seen whether the items fail to meet a (UK supplied) specification (i.e non compliant goods), or someone simply ordered a product offered (i.e. wrong items ordered) - which since the company hadn't any existing contracts in PPE seems unlikely.  In any event it seems they are unsuitable for use under our standards.

It will be interesting to know the reason they have been rejected for use? Unfortunate for the supply chain. My experience of the nhs supply chain for products is that they are routinely and judiciously scrutinized. In the past myself and my colleagues have been asked to give feedback on products used in direct patient and indirect patient care when new evidence based products came into the market. They had to have approval in line with the trust governance procedures before a period of testing was undertook in a small cohort. Once established as a bench marking improved product, a SOP was written for its use in the trust then it could be procured through the supply chain for widespread use. That is my experience. 

Gowns will already have been written into trusts infection control measures SOP so if they meet the specs they can go into widespread use.

Edited May 7, 2020 by 7daysinaweek

[Danger-Mouse]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Very plausible suggestion here (though it does come from Brazil who have a somewhat suspect leader) that those countries with mass air travel/connections have been most badly hit  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8296417/Why-countries-shut-borders-Scientists-air-travel-main-driver-COVID-19-outbreaks.html

The UK is a massive air interchange hub.

I've said that for a while... US NY City most affected, UK London most affected. Both big cities with several airports and a densely packed population.

[Norfolk wildfowler]

On 06/05/2020 at 23:29, lancer425 said:

Have you any documentation from the EU backing up this statement you quote was in  the independent. please.

I am not a member of the EU and have no access to their minuets. But A small sample of others who do and come from both left and right wing politics do so follow them up yourself. And Hancocks own admission was on several TV news programs brushed over by saying he was confused . 

 

 The Guardian

Ministers are being pressed to reveal the full details of how the government missed out on four opportunities to join an EU medical supplies consortium, in the wake of a U-turn by the top civil servant in the Foreign Office over comments suggesting it was a “political decision”.

The Labour MP Chris Bryant, who sits on the foreign affairs select committee, said on Wednesday that he “feared the government was involved in a full-on cover-up” over how it came to miss out on four rounds of procurement of personal protective equipment (PPE), ventilators and laboratory supplies launched by the EU in late February and March.

UK officials failed to take up an invitation to join the steering committee of participating countries that issues orders for medical equipment until 19 March – after the bulk purchases had been made.

Bryant said he feared either Foreign Office ministers or the prime minister decided not to be associated with any EU scheme for political reasons “even though it was patently in the interests of the NHS and its staff to explore every possible avenue to acquire masks, gowns and ventilator equipment, as fast and most effectively as possible”.

 

 

 

Evening Standard

The Health Secretary has been forced to deny the UK's failure to take part in an EU scheme to get vital ventilators for the coronavirus crisis was politically motivated.

The Foreign Office’s top civil servant Sir Simon McDonald claimed earlier that officials had briefed ministers on what schemes were still open to the UK after leaving the EU at the end January.

Sir Simon told the foreign affairs select committee on Monday that "it was a political decision" not to be involved.

 

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18399718.eu-rubbishes-matt-hancocks...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/g63v7q/eu_rejects_matt...

EU rejects Matt Hancock’s claims that UK is part of bloc’s PPE scheme 

6 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Do you expect a Turkish worker to read a 28 page document that’s written in English? 

B

efore spending 100,000 of Uk taxpayers you would have thought Boris and co just might have thought about sending a NHS official to check the PPE was up to  standard.

[Dave-G]

I'll wonder if that might have been intended to not show we need to accept a joint EU venture having left the EU - hmm my word power is letting me down again. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Dave-G

[Norfolk wildfowler]

On 06/05/2020 at 19:33, JDog said:

Norfolk wildfowler

Reading through some of the posts in response to your offerings on this thread it would appear that you have long since lost the argument. Resorting to personal insults will not help your case.

In the first post  itwas you who opened with insults directed at me. Just to remind you the Wildflower (sic) schoolboy comment. If you disagree with what I have put on hear then find and reference your opinions. You seem great at claiming people have lost an argument without offering any counter arguments yourself. Still more signs of immaturity I suppose.

 

[Jim Neal]

Anyone remember the Black Knight scene from The Holy Grail?

[toontastic]

Norfolk Wildfowler, This EU scheme you keep going on about failed to provide enough PPE for hospitals within the EU. So please explain how they would have managed to provide us with PPE when they can't even look after their own needs. 

[WalkedUp]

Do you have a source for this? A quick search and all I can find is three weeks old from Guido Fawkes and the Express, neither of which are reputable. 

11 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Norfolk Wildfowler, This EU scheme you keep going on about failed to provide enough PPE for hospitals within the EU. So please explain how they would have managed to provide us with PPE when they can't even look after their own needs. 

 

[AVB]

7 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

 

efore spending 100,000 of Uk taxpayers you would have thought Boris and co just might have thought about sending a NHS official to check the PPE was up to  standard.

Yea with all the chaos globally around PPE, with every nation climbing all over each other to get it, lets dither and do that. Hindsight is wonderful. 

[lancer425]

8 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

I am not a member of the EU and have no access to their minuets. But A small sample of others who do and come from both left and right wing politics do so follow them up yourself. And Hancocks own admission was on several TV news programs brushed over by saying he was confused . 

 

 The Guardian

Ministers are being pressed to reveal the full details of how the government missed out on four opportunities to join an EU medical supplies consortium, in the wake of a U-turn by the top civil servant in the Foreign Office over comments suggesting it was a “political decision”.

The Labour MP Chris Bryant, who sits on the foreign affairs select committee, said on Wednesday that he “feared the government was involved in a full-on cover-up” over how it came to miss out on four rounds of procurement of personal protective equipment (PPE), ventilators and laboratory supplies launched by the EU in late February and March.

UK officials failed to take up an invitation to join the steering committee of participating countries that issues orders for medical equipment until 19 March – after the bulk purchases had been made.

Bryant said he feared either Foreign Office ministers or the prime minister decided not to be associated with any EU scheme for political reasons “even though it was patently in the interests of the NHS and its staff to explore every possible avenue to acquire masks, gowns and ventilator equipment, as fast and most effectively as possible”.

 

 

 

Evening Standard

The Health Secretary has been forced to deny the UK's failure to take part in an EU scheme to get vital ventilators for the coronavirus crisis was politically motivated.

The Foreign Office’s top civil servant Sir Simon McDonald claimed earlier that officials had briefed ministers on what schemes were still open to the UK after leaving the EU at the end January.

Sir Simon told the foreign affairs select committee on Monday that "it was a political decision" not to be involved.

 

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18399718.eu-rubbishes-matt-hancocks...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/g63v7q/eu_rejects_matt...

EU rejects Matt Hancock’s claims that UK is part of bloc’s PPE scheme 

B

efore spending 100,000 of Uk taxpayers you would have thought Boris and co just might have thought about sending a NHS official to check the PPE was up to  standard.

With the best will in the world, your showing me nothing more than you me and millions of others already heard with regarding this subject. No real meat on the bone, just the occasional less than clear answer and statements that could be loosely interpreted to give an answer if you were politically inclined that way. But fact is NO real clear cut Details. No Documentation. And in the fullness of time i suspect no decisive outcome. Just one more pointless media inflamed not even noteworthy situation born out of not very much if anything at all. Good luck with that one then. But hey if the cap fits it suits your point of view you wear it. Meanwhile I will Go with what he said "we were in but nothing came of it, and not one item had arrived down to that Proposal/ S. "

[toontastic]

1 hour ago, WalkedUp said:

Do you have a source for this? A quick search and all I can find is three weeks old from Guido Fawkes and the Express, neither of which are reputable. 

 

German news article about health care workers protesting naked to highlight they are having to work without PPE.

[WalkedUp]

I saw that too, I never miss a chance to ogle naked old men 🤣 

Was that stated as a direct result of a failure of the EU PPE scheme? 

All I can find is that the German protest was due to shortages following a lack of centralised procurement system within Germany. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by WalkedUp

[ClemFandango]

9 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

In the first post  itwas you who opened with insults directed at me. Just to remind you the Wildflower (sic) schoolboy comment. If you disagree with what I have put on hear then find and reference your opinions. You seem great at claiming people have lost an argument without offering any counter arguments yourself. Still more signs of immaturity I suppose.

 

You may find it immature but you have yet to make a valid comment on this subject. 

[panoma1]

Just a personal observation........In order to support their views, and give an argument credence, those with a left wing labour bent, quote from the left wing labour supporting press/sources/media......those with the other/opposing political views, quote from the press/sources/media which supports their views!........none of it is impartial, it’s all spin and propaganda, churned out by a biased source, from a biased media, in order to brainwash/persuade joe public into supporting a particular political dogma!

Together with a healthy dose of cynicism, this is an observation which I submit, supports this threads title!

 

[clangerman]

if you proceed on the basis anything from the media or government is at best a half truth you won’t go far wrong 

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Together with a healthy dose of cynicism, this is an observation which I submit, supports this threads title!

Funny you should say that.  I accept I am one on the 'right'.  (Mainly right as opposed to wrong of course 😇- but I accept right as opposed to left politically) 🤣

I do often spot the subjects on which I comment in the 'right' side press - but if quoting in support of presumed facts, I do try and find the odd 'left' paper from which to quote as well - and I have found some of the left papers very odd. 🤣

 

 

[Raja Clavata]

27 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Just a personal observation........In order to support their views, and give an argument credence, those with a left wing labour bent, quote from the left wing labour supporting press/sources/media......those with the other/opposing political views, quote from the press/sources/media which supports their views!........none of it is impartial, it’s all spin and propaganda, churned out by a biased source, from a biased media, in order to brainwash/persuade joe public into supporting a particular political dogma!

Together with a healthy dose of cynicism, this is an observation which I submit, supports this threads title!

 

This. I think a lot of people are either totally ignorant of the fact at all or underestimate the impact that it has on just about every aspect of our lives.

I appreciate it's perhaps naive but if everyone and everything were just reset to central what a beautiful place the world would be.