Sustainable ammunition articles

[Conor O'Gorman]

There have been many articles and features in the shooting press recently about sustainable ammunition. 

BASC has complied a list of external publications and videos on the subject here:

https://basc.org.uk/sustainable-ammunition-articles/

[ClemFandango]

Sustainable? 

Pretty poor choice of words there. 

Will you be travelling the country collecting spent steel shot to re-use Conor or do BASC have people for that? 

I am in favour of the use of non lead ammunition in both shotguns and rifles but I cannot believe what a hash you are making of this campaign. 

If this is how BASC deal with everything you undertake it is no wonder shooting is going down the pan.

 

[saddler]

Promoting the exclusive use of non-lead ammunition has to be one of the most short sighted ideas ANY shooting organisation has ever got behind.

[holloway]

13 minutes ago, saddler said:

Promoting the exclusive use of non-lead ammunition has to be one of the most short sighted ideas ANY shooting organisation has ever got behind.

I would disagree I would say it was very far sighted ,as a country we should have been working towards it for years. If will be imposed on us by law one day whether we agree with it or not .we have had our heads in the sand for years .

[strimmer_13]

Affordable, effective and efficient would be a better choice of words and goals 

[holloway]

40 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

Affordable, effective and efficient would be a better choice of words and goals 

The Americans have had this since the 1970s fifty years ago !! most wildfowlers who were forced to use it by law have had it and been using it for years .Its only the flat earth society who can’t see beyond lead .Wake up and smell the coffee the ones who condemn steel are ignorant of the facts .I am sure that in time there will be ammunition available for every type of gun ,if it sells manufacturers will produce it.

[enfieldspares]

It's all a  nonsense and this is why. For if it is to sell shot game to the likes of Waitrose that won't take such with lead shot it is a fool's errand. For once the first "no win no fee" compensation claims start coming in over teeth broken by steel shot Waitrose will stop selling game shot with steel shot. And the "big bag" boys will be back where they started trying to defend producing on a "big bag" day a glut of shot game that nobody wants to buy.

[strimmer_13]

38 minutes ago, holloway said:

The Americans have had this since the 1970s fifty years ago !! most wildfowlers who were forced to use it by law have had it and been using it for years .Its only the flat earth society who can’t see beyond lead .Wake up and smell the coffee the ones who condemn steel are ignorant of the facts .I am sure that in time there will be ammunition available for every type of gun ,if it sells manufacturers will produce it

 Should be a spokesman for the orgs, its about as effective 

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, holloway said:

The Americans have had this since the 1970s fifty years ago !! most wildfowlers who were forced to use it by law have had it and been using it for years .Its only the flat earth society who can’t see beyond lead .Wake up and smell the coffee the ones who condemn steel are ignorant of the facts .I am sure that in time there will be ammunition available for every type of gun ,if it sells manufacturers will produce it.

Yep,  can’t hunt birds over water with lead. But the Gastonia City park has skeet throwers over a lake that’s used for city drinking water.  It’s really not about about saving wildlife it’s to make shooting more expensive.  In fact lots of parks over here put skeet throwers over lakes.  

[Walker570]

8 hours ago, holloway said:

The Americans have had this since the 1970s fifty years ago !! most wildfowlers who were forced to use it by law have had it and been using it for years .Its only the flat earth society who can’t see beyond lead .Wake up and smell the coffee the ones who condemn steel are ignorant of the facts .I am sure that in time there will be ammunition available for every type of gun ,if it sells manufacturers will produce it.

What do you suggest I shoot through my Army & Navy 16 gauge then  circa 1900 ?   ......... at a sensible price.   Or do I scrap it and buy something inferior.

[Old farrier]

8 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

It's all a  nonsense and this is why. For if it is to sell shot game to the likes of Waitrose that won't take such with lead shot it is a fool's errand. For once the first "no win no fee" compensation claims start coming in over teeth broken by steel shot Waitrose will stop selling game shot with steel shot. And the "big bag" boys will be back where they started trying to defend producing on a "big bag" day a glut of shot game that nobody wants to buy.

What’s a big bag day? 
8 men shooting 500 pheasants 

or 1man shooting 100 pigeons 

[wymberley]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

What’s a big bag day? 
8 men shooting 500 pheasants 

or 1man shooting 100 pigeons 

The problem is is not what we think but what Joe Public either think or can be persuaded to believe is the case.

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

What do you suggest I shoot through my Army & Navy 16 gauge then  circa 1900 ?   ......... at a sensible price.   Or do I scrap it and buy something inferior.

As I said suitable ammunition will be developed in time ,stay calm no need to panic or over react it’s not been banned yet ,a lot can change in 5 years.

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The problem is is not what we think but what Joe Public either think or can be persuaded to believe is the case.

agreed the very reason anti nuts and slackman have been so successful against us joe public will be the end of us unless we get through to him 

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

What do you suggest I shoot through my Army & Navy 16 gauge then  circa 1900 ?   ......... at a sensible price.   Or do I scrap it and buy something inferior.

You do notice that all the pro steel shooters think the world only shoots modern 12gauge guns.

[holloway]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

You do notice that all the pro steel shooters think the world only shoots modern 12gauge guns.

Not at all I have used steel through all of my guns from obsolete 10 ga  through hammer 16 ga and my present 1950 Midland gun co magnum all with no harm at all . I must admit to be at an advantage  as I load my own .If I was in such a panic about the loss of lead and the use of my favorite gun I would be looking down the reloading route and trying to be positive.oh and the vintage 10 ga was Damascus. I pay special attention to  the pressure some of the lighter  loads can have very low pressure a lot lower than there lead equivalent.Obviously I avoid large shot within reason .My usual shot size for geese in modern guns is a 1 I drop this to a 2 in the English guns seems to work ok .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, holloway said:

Not at all I have used steel through all of my guns from obsolete 10 ga  through hammer 16 ga and my present 1950 Midland gun co magnum all with no harm at all . I must admit to be at an advantage  as I load my own .If I was in such a panic about the loss of lead and the use of my favorite gun I would be looking down the reloading route and trying to be positive.oh and the vintage 10 ga was Damascus. I pay special attention to  the pressure some of the lighter  loads can have very low pressure a lot lower than there lead equivalent.Obviously I avoid large shot within reason .My usual shot size for geese in modern guns is a 1 I drop this to a 2 in the English guns seems to work ok .

The sensible, rational approach!

[scotslad]

6 hours ago, holloway said:

As I said suitable ammunition will be developed in time ,stay calm no need to panic or over react it’s not been banned yet ,a lot can change in 5 years.

 

Wot about for the humble 22lr????

Garther almost impossible to produce non toxic bullets for it.

The non toxic rifle bullets are generally far more toxic than normal bullets plus less safe in many cases

 

Is the problem not steel shot without a plastic wad, chances are plastic single use wads will be banned before lead is.

If g do u really have a problem completely brought forward and created by basc and there stupidity.

 

As someone said above supermarkets will never stock and sell game, no matter wot it's shot with.

Look at M&S s u turn over grouse, made a load of estates jump throu hoops then never stock it as created negative publicity and petitions.

No supermarket is going to risk the potential adverse PR for such a small niche product

[holloway]

1 hour ago, scotslad said:

 

Wot about for the humble 22lr????

Garther almost impossible to produce non toxic bullets for it.

The non toxic rifle bullets are generally far more toxic than normal bullets plus less safe in many cases

 

Is the problem not steel shot without a plastic wad, chances are plastic single use wads will be banned before lead is.

If g do u really have a problem completely brought forward and created by basc and there stupidity.

 

As someone said above supermarkets will never stock and sell game, no matter wot it's shot with.

Look at M&S s u turn over grouse, made a load of estates jump throu hoops then never stock it as created negative publicity and petitions.

No supermarket is going to risk the potential adverse PR for such a small niche product

Sorry never had anything to do with firearms can’t have an opinion on something I have no experience of .

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, holloway said:

Not at all I have used steel through all of my guns from obsolete 10 ga  through hammer 16 ga and my present 1950 Midland gun co magnum all with no harm at all . I must admit to be at an advantage  as I load my own .If I was in such a panic about the loss of lead and the use of my favorite gun I would be looking down the reloading route and trying to be positive.oh and the vintage 10 ga was Damascus. I pay special attention to  the pressure some of the lighter  loads can have very low pressure a lot lower than there lead equivalent.Obviously I avoid large shot within reason .My usual shot size for geese in modern guns is a 1 I drop this to a 2 in the English guns seems to work ok .

Nice but try doing that with biodegradable wads in your 16ga, or 28ga or .410 they are not making any yet and will they, that is the big question, then will they reach the home loaders as components? The U.K. market is tiny and may not justify such investment.

Then steel need to be larger in diameter driven fast to be effective Giving more recoil and less pattern. Thanks but I will wait until we have no legal choice but to use steel.

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, holloway said:

Sorry never had anything to do with firearms can’t have an opinion on something I have no experience of .

Not everyone wants to load their own. BASC stated they wouldn’t sanction a lead ban until there was a practical, efficient and affordable alternative. It would seem that a practical alternative isn’t available for everyone, not even if you reload....not without plastic anyhow. 

Our shooting orgs have now proposed a voluntary lead ammunition ban, but not for rifles. If lead shot is toxic then lead ammunition is toxic, in whatever form, but the NGO have trouble in explaining why the voluntary phase out only applies to lead shot, so much trouble in fact that they’ve stopped returning my calls.

I only have a .22rf now, but it uses toxic lead ammunition. 
 

[London Best]

43 minutes ago, holloway said:

Sorry never had anything to do with firearms can’t have an opinion on something I have no experience of .

You are not an MP then?

[Salopian]

I am totally opposed to the banning of Lead shot until a viable ,efficient , economic alternative is available .

If you read through the above posts from us all we, in my opinion have not approached this in a very sensible manner .

It is no use those that haven't tried it saying 'it's rubbish, it won't work and I will never use it' , it is no use Conor O'Gorman saying we know Lead is a problem so let us embrace change , because apart from ubsubstantiated claims of mortality to humans they really have no REAL evidence . A far greater environmental issue is plastic pollution , you only have to see the issues that discarded plastic cartons and packaging , nylon fishing line and nylon fishing nets causes to see Man's REAL issue .

Recently it was highlighted that the UK exports 15 tonnes of baled plastic waste to Turkey every day , where the Turks either incinerate or more often than not tip it on Landfill sights???? Saving the planet ? 

Incidentally I have not heard of or seen ONE damaged barrel caused by the use of steel shot , but I have also not seen any BASC exhibits of ballistic jel shot with steel shot at sensible Game range and comparisons with Lead shot .

At the minute Lead shot WILL NOT BE banned in five years it is only a recommendation from nine organisations who are supposed to be representing us  for a VOLUNTARY ban.

Give me facts and evidence and I will happily comply. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Salopian

[Walker570]

Are there any reputable genuine historic records of anyone dying or even being effected by game shot with lead shot?   Not to my memory and probably millions of cartridges have been fired over the last 100yrs.  I'm afraid this is the same scare mongering as we are seeing with Corvid.  There is absolutely no historic reason to ban lead shot period.

All a load of buncum, dreant up by some over edicated idiot.    The lead ban over water was as a result of some swans dying from lead poisoning and that was down to lead ingestation from anglers lead shot, nothing to do with shooting.  In the USA things where slightly different because there wetlands do get a huge amount of shot fired over them in a very intense season.

Guns/hunters queuing to go shoot on reserves. As one gun returns with his/her limit another is allowed into that shooting bay.  Could not believ it when I was over there.  Just slightly different to our situation.

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, Salopian said:

I am totally opposed to the banning of Lead shot until a viable ,efficient , economic alternative is available .

If you read through the above posts from us all we, in my opinion have not approached this in a very sensible manner .

It is no use those that haven't tried it saying 'it's rubbish, it won't work and I will never use it' , it is no use Conor O'Gorman saying we know Lead is a problem so let us embrace change , because apart from ubsubstantiated claims of mortality to humans they really have no REAL evidence . A far greater environmental issue is plastic pollution , you only have to see the issues that discarded plastic cartons and packaging , nylon fishing line and nylon fishing nets causes to see Man's REAL issue .

Recently it was highlighted that the UK exports 15 tonnes of baled plastic waste to Turkey every day , where the Turks either incinerate or more often than not tip it on Landfill sights???? Saving the planet ? 

Incidentally I have not heard of or seen ONE damaged barrel caused by the use of steel shot , but I have also not seen any BASC exhibits of ballistic jel shot with steel shot at sensible Game range and comparisons with Lead shot .

At the minute Lead shot WILL NOT BE banned in five years it is only a recommendation from nine organisations who are supposed to be representing us  for a VOLUNTARY ban.

Give me facts and evidence and I will happily comply. 

The only fact we need to be concerned with is that of public perception, and public perception is that eating meat which has been shot with lead shot is dangerous. It doesn’t matter that no one has died as a result of eating it, nor that the risks of eating it are negligible; public perception is everything, and that of the supermarkets. If the supermarkets tell their suppliers that they won’t buy produce from them if it contains lead shot, or even if their produce has been shot over ( such as crops ) with lead shot, then it will have to go. Markets dictate policy, not shooters, and the markets couldn’t care less what shooters think.