Electric boiler

[harrycatcat1]

 

My gas boiler is an old one, we have been in this house 30 years and it wasn't new looking then.

I have heard that after 2025 gas boilers will not be fitted to new builds?

Not wanting to hijack Steve B's combi thread, has anyone any experience of an electric boiler that can run hot water and radiators?

[lekyrog]

I used to fit electric boilers years ago but the market dropped do to efficient gas boilers. Now retired but have seen the latest  boiler from Heatrae Sadia called Electromax Combi. Defo worth a look. They have defo come a long way now. If you google it I would think you will find some reviews.

[Ultrastu]

I looked into this just before xmas .

Unless you HAVE to go electric .then don't  

If you have an electric  power cut your gonna be without light and heating and cooking.its very rare to have your gas and electricity  fail at the same time .

Also you would need a BIG electric boiler to run a standard 3 bed house .

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

If you have an electric  power cut your gonna be without light and heating and cooking

Same as with a gas boiler?  Won't work without electrical power.

Ok, cooking I'll grant you, hopefully you've got a lighter or matches handy.  OP doesn't mention what fuel he uses to cook with.

 

2 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

I have heard that after 2025 gas boilers will not be fitted to new builds?

What does that have to do with the price of North Sea gas?

Presumably, you're in a property which is connected to main line gas.  I would continue to use it until it is NLA.

 

2 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

My gas boiler is an old one, we have been in this house 30 years and it wasn't new looking then.

Get some quotes from reputable companies to do a boiler replacement.  See how much that is, and weigh it against your average gas bill, and see how long it would take for the claimed savings to pay for the new boiler.  Then compare and contrast with the risk of having to replace the boiler anyway as spare parts likely aren't available any more.  Discuss and agree your 'risk appetite' with your signifcant other, and proceed on that basis.

[nobbyathome]

electric boilers will be the way to go as the government are committed to cut the carbon footprint and gas boilers will be stopped over time the problem at the moment is price electric are far more expensive compared to gas in a couple of years time with development and production they should compete very well with gas 

Just now, nobbyathome said:

electric boilers will be the way to go as the government are committed to cut the carbon footprint and gas boilers will be stopped over time the problem at the moment is price electric are far more expensive compared to gas in a couple of years time with development and production they should compete very well with gas 

i have just replaced my boiler and i had the same dilema i opted for a gas valiant  due to price /spares in the future /reliability

[harrycatcat1]

The reason I asked the question is that just recently in my family 3 combi gas boilers have been playing up. In fact my lads boiler has only been in for 3 years and it sounds as though it's the "expansion vessel " as he needs to top up the water pressure regularly. My brother and daughter have had the same problem.  It doesn't seem that the boilers are made to last so are the electric boilers any more reliable ?

[Manish]

As a heating engineer I would not go electric. Unless you have a wind turbine in your garden or a load of solar panels on a feed in tariff. @harrycatcat1Your lads boiler just needs the water dropping out of it and the pressure vess needs pumping up with a foot put to 1bar. I always replace the schrader core when I do this and your fine for the next few years. Its the same as a car tyre they need pumping up form time to time. 

New builds are very different to proper homes. They are VERY well insulated and dont need much to heat and based on this they have thought we can drop gas heating. Also avoid combis. If you have the space have a system boiler with a HW tank. That way if your boiler brakes down you still have an elec backup on the tank by immersion heater.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more help mate

[Blackpowder]

Fitted an electric combi supplied by a customer about 12 years ago, he still seems quite pleased with it.  Might be useful to have a roof full o0f solar panels as This might keep running costs down.

 

Blackpowder

Just now, Manish said:

As a heating engineer I would not go electric. Unless you have a wind turbine in your garden or a load of solar panels on a feed in tariff. @harrycatcat1Your lads boiler just needs the water dropping out of it and the pressure vess needs pumping up with a foot put to 1bar. I always replace the schrader core when I do this and your fine for the next few years. Its the same as a car tyre they need pumping up form time to time. 

New builds are very different to proper homes. They are VERY well insulated and dont need much to heat and based on this they have thought we can drop gas heating. Also avoid combis. If you have the space have a system boiler with a HW tank. That way if your boiler brakes down you still have an elec backup on the tank by immersion heater.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more help mate

Thats good advice

Blackpowder

 

[JohnfromUK]

Absolutely key facts;

• Electricity (normal on peak) costs around 14.5 p per Kilowatt hour.  Electricity is near enough 100% efficient, so your actual 'heat' costs around 14.5p per unit.
• Gas (mains gas) costs around 2.7 p per Kilowatt hour.  Gas in a modern boiler is around 85% efficient, so your actual 'heat' costs (gas only) around 3.2 p per unit.  There is also a small additional amount of electricity needed (pump, fan etc.) - so the actual 'heat' costs (total cost) around 3.5p per unit.

So electricity costs rather more than 4 times as much per unit of heat.

Edited January 18, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[udderlyoffroad]

Indeed.

I don't wish to dump on @Manish's profession, but are you entirely sure that your family has been hiring competent heating engineers?

I've been dealing with a recalcitrant boiler recently, and the heating engineers I've experienced could most politely be described as fitters.  They have been googling answers on their phone, the same way I have.  Were it not (allegedly) illegal to replace the parts in question myself, I would have done so, and saved myself a fortune.  The maintenance manuals are freely available online, and walk you through (at a Haynes manual level) how to do it...

Edited January 18, 2021 by udderlyoffroad

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Manish said:

As a heating engineer I would not go electric. Unless you have a wind turbine in your garden or a load of solar panels on a feed in tariff. @harrycatcat1Your lads boiler just needs the water dropping out of it and the pressure vess needs pumping up with a foot put to 1bar. I always replace the schrader core when I do this and your fine for the next few years. Its the same as a car tyre they need pumping up form time to time. 

New builds are very different to proper homes. They are VERY well insulated and dont need much to heat and based on this they have thought we can drop gas heating. Also avoid combis. If you have the space have a system boiler with a HW tank. That way if your boiler brakes down you still have an elec backup on the tank by immersion heater.

Feel free to PM me if you want any more help mate

Thanks you saved me the trouble of typing that out = totally agree.

[figgy]

There is always the new air source heat pumps, worth looking into if your needs are not massive.

Seven eight years ago they were too expensive but today the grants if you qualify make them worthwhile. 

Fella I know had solar panels and aur source heat pump fitted other year, he is very happy with it. Also drives a phev mitsubishi so into doing his bit at being greener. 

 

As for power cuts, unless you have a old boiler with pilot light and gravity fed system a power cut you won't have heating with your boiler.

Edited January 18, 2021 by figgy

[London Best]

29 minutes ago, figgy said:

 

 

As for power cuts, unless you have a old boiler with pilot light and gravity fed system a power cut you won't have heating with your boiler.

Another really clever modern “improvement”.

[Demonic69]

2 hours ago, figgy said:

As for power cuts, unless you have a old boiler with pilot light and gravity fed system a power cut you won't have heating with your boiler.

Micro CHP boilers should be the future, but never took off for some reason

[Wiggum]

4 hours ago, figgy said:

There is always the new air source heat pumps, worth looking into if your needs are not massive.

Seven eight years ago they were too expensive but today the grants if you qualify make them worthwhile. 

Fella I know had solar panels and aur source heat pump fitted other year, he is very happy with it. Also drives a phev mitsubishi so into doing his bit at being greener. 

 

As for power cuts, unless you have a old boiler with pilot light and gravity fed system a power cut you won't have heating with your boiler.

I’ve just done some work for someone who’s had air source fitted, it cost him £20k for the installation and gets a rebate every 3 months from the government. He’s not happy at all as it’s costing him over £200 a month in electricity where as before it was about £70 electricity and £60 oil per month in the winter. He only has the heating on for a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

13 minutes ago, Wiggum said:

I’ve just done some work for someone who’s had air source fitted, it cost him £20k for the installation and gets a rebate every 3 months from the government. He’s not happy at all as it’s costing him over £200 a month in electricity where as before it was about £70 electricity and £60 oil per month in the winter. He only has the heating on for a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening. 

Surely that suggests he was poorly advised.

[ph5172]

I have a thermal store with heat exchanger. 
runs on gas but can be connected to solar. 
 

it has a 6kw backup electric function that will do hot water and space heating.  I have never used it as it would need to be the equivalent of living in a tent in Siberia for me to fire it up on electric nearly £1 an hour  

[udderlyoffroad]

17 minutes ago, Wiggum said:

He only has the heating on for a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening. 

Therein lies the problem, possibly?  Air source, from my understanding needs to be running constantly and be allowed to self-regulate.  Also requires a well-insulated building to begin with.  A leaky old, UK construction does not a good candidate make. 

And this (UK concept) of 'only having the heating for a couple of hours' isn't particularly efficient, with a well-insulated house anyway.

 

3 hours ago, London Best said:

Another really clever modern “improvement”.

I know you're brighter than this LB, nevertheless I'll rise to it, for the (possible) benefit of others reading it: Same as with vehicles, you can either have control electronics to improve the efficiency, or you can be stuck with existing technology.

 

2 hours ago, Demonic69 said:

Micro CHP boilers should be the future, but never took off for some reason

Generating electricity on a small scale just isn't efficient.  Fine, possibly, when the fuel is free (wind, solar), but not if you're having to pay for the fuel too (CHP), beyond really remote applications.  Even then, as far as I'm aware a CHP unit requires at the very least a battery to start it, if not a mains supply.

 

[Ttfjlc]

In my experience anything to do with electric & heating together means happy energy suppliers  

[Demonic69]

39 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Generating electricity on a small scale just isn't efficient.  Fine, possibly, when the fuel is free (wind, solar), but not if you're having to pay for the fuel too (CHP), beyond really remote applications.  Even then, as far as I'm aware a CHP unit requires at the very least a battery to start it, if not a mains supply.

The point of CHP is to generate electricity while heating your home or water, usually using gas. Pair that with a decent battery store and you're getting free electricity. If you're storing hot water too it becomes even more efficient. Surely that has a better impact on our carbon footprint than forcing a move to inefficient/cost ineffective electric boilers, especially as we can barely provide enough electricity to cope with demand and can't build a nuclear plant to save the cheese!

[Jaymo]

We have recently installed UFH and an ASHP. What can I say except for - how do I get a second mortgage to pay for the running costs.

Am awaiting the RHI scheme to finally acknowledge my application. 
 

The house were currently living in which is on gas. It’s three times the size with half the price for heating. 

[JohnfromUK]

About 5 years ago, I had a major overhaul on my house with all new heating, plumbing and wiring.  It is quite a large old listed building, and although as much insulation as reasonably possible has been done ........ it was never going to be anywhere near modern standards.  Therefore, an efficient cost effective heating system was required and carefully researched, with all viable options considered - including some quite expensive options (heat pumps, both air and ground sourced types, and biomass).  Mains gas was already present.

The conclusion was that for running costs, I could not beat a standard gas boiler.  I don't believe the economics now has changed that.

[udderlyoffroad]

 

48 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

The point of CHP is to generate electricity while heating your home or water, usually using gas. Pair that with a decent battery store and you're getting free electricity.

What?  In order to be free, energy out > energy in.  It really isn't free.  On this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

 

49 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

If you're storing hot water too it becomes even more efficient.

Rarely does adding complexity to a system increase its efficiency.  Efficiency = energy in/energy out.

 

50 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

Surely that has a better impact on our carbon footprint than forcing a move to inefficient/cost ineffective electric boilers

Eh?  Carbon footprint and efficiency aren't directly linked.  Just talking about electricity for a moment, carbon emissions from large, efficient gas-fired powerplants and an optimized grid < millions of small CHP plants.  Generally, you get energy efficiency through scale, even once you take into account grid losses.

Using the above definition of efficiency, electric boilers are very efficient, as are all forms of electric heat.  Way more than gas boilers.  It's just the input energy is expensive compared to gas, joule for joule.

 

1 hour ago, Demonic69 said:

specially as we can barely provide enough electricity to cope with demand and can't build a nuclear plant to save the cheese!

The national grid would have us believe that we can cope with demand, just not peak demand.

 

[Yellow Bear]

11 hours ago, Demonic69 said:

The point of CHP is to generate electricity while heating your home or water, usually using gas

Incorrect, the point of CHP (and I have been involved in the installation of many) is to generate electricity, the heat if purely not wasting the by product of this generation.

[TRINITY]

I really cant see the point of using an electric boiler in order to run a heating system designed to operate on gas.  I am in the process of buying a small country bolt hole. It has no gas but uses old storage radiators and an immersion heater for hot water. The shower unit is electric. I have looked at the cost of replacing the storage heaters with modern panel heaters and I am amazed how much cheaper they are. Going to replace the tank with a direct supply electric water heater, also quite cheap and extremely simple to fit. 

I reckon the whole lot would be far cheaper than installing a modern combi boiler with conventional radiators. Ok it will be more expensive to run , but I dont have gas so it's not a consideration. The point I am making is that it's so inefficient to use electric to heat up water then pump it around the house through traditional radiators. If you are using electric for heating send it direct to modern wall heaters that are 100% efficient.