Voluntary cartridge retention procedure….

[ChrisO]

So at long last, my cert has finally landed, after eight months of thumb twiddling.

Amongst the forms and paperwork were two ziplock bags and a letter, asking me to put a spent cartridge from each barrel in the two bags. Then keep them safe, so they can be used, in the event of any gun I have getting stolen, in a forensic examination. 
I don’t see why this would be a bad thing, I’m just surprised I’ve never heard of it before.

Is it common ? New ? Do all forces ask cert holders to do this ? I’m probably going to go along with it, can you lot see any reason why it’s a bad thing ?

[JTaylor91]

Never heard of that. What force?

[stu64]

Because you said a cartridge from each barrel, rather than a cartridge from each gun, it makes me think you are referring to a shotgun? If so I can't see the point- what use is an empty shotgun cartridge case? any mark left by the striker on the primer may or may not be useful as I would think strikers wear because of the amount of cartridges fired, and often get changed through breakage. Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[ChrisO]

Greater Manchester.

2 minutes ago, stu64 said:

Because you said a cartridge from each barrel, rather than a cartridge from each gun, it makes me think you are referring to a shotgun? If so I can't see the point- what use is an empty shotgun cartridge case? any mark left by the striker on the primer may or may not be useful as I would think strikers wear because of the amount of cartridges fired, and often get changed through breakage. Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Yeah it’s a shotgun cert. No you’re on the right tree, they just say the samples will help generate a forensic profile.

[samboy]

I've had this with the MET.

[Smokersmith]

New to me ...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Here we go again!

[Poor Shot]

Had a similar letter appended to my certificate which arrived on Saturday. 

Honestly, I'd be amazed if you could forensically identify a cartridge fired from a specific gun which would have been 1 of hundreds, if not thousands of identical others which would have been manufactured as a single batch.

I will be a good little certificate holder and retain a pair just in case though. Will probably need to replace them every thousand or so cartridges fired to keep pace with the wear of the gun.

[London Best]

Surely the answer to this request is for everybody to provide a pair and post them to their firearms dept. and see if they would like to keep them safe for possible future use.

That should cure the problem, the same as ten thousand people calling the police switchboard at 8.00 AM every Saturday morning because it has been requested that you call every time you go out with a gun.

[Old farrier]

Did you get asked to label which barrel each one is from?

and maybe a 2.1/2..2.3/4..3..3.1.1/2 inch case from your semi auto 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Old farrier

[Scully]

1 hour ago, ChrisO said:

So at long last, my cert has finally landed, after eight months of thumb twiddling.

Amongst the forms and paperwork were two ziplock bags and a letter, asking me to put a spent cartridge from each barrel in the two bags. Then keep them safe, so they can be used, in the event of any gun I have getting stolen, in a forensic examination. 
I don’t see why this would be a bad thing, I’m just surprised I’ve never heard of it before.

Is it common ? New ? Do all forces ask cert holders to do this ? I’m probably going to go along with it, can you lot see any reason why it’s a bad thing ?

So if one of your guns is stolen and is then identified by the cartridges you have provided as being used for nefarious deeds, you are then in the predicament of having to prove where you were at the time said nefarious deed was done. 🤔

Don't think I’ll be bothering. 

[enfieldspares]

50 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

Had a similar letter appended to my certificate which arrived on Saturday. 

Honestly, I'd be amazed if you could forensically identify a cartridge fired from a specific gun which would have been 1 of hundreds, if not thousands of identical others which would have been manufactured as a single batch.

I will be a good little certificate holder and retain a pair just in case though. Will probably need to replace them every thousand or so cartridges fired to keep pace with the wear of the gun.

Oh yes you can. It was proved in 1925 following the assassination of the then Sirdar of Egypt. The forensic evidence was "proved" by taking fired cases (and I think bullets) from three consecutively made Webley .32 pistols to show that even pistols made one immediately after the other made unique barrel and breech marks. A shotgun case will do less so as it is a lower pressure round but nevertheless will show an ejector/extractor "signature" and firing pin strike.

https://www.nzedge.com/legends/sydney-smith/

https://www.firearmsid.com/A_historyoffirearmsID.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1630752.stm

Edited June 8, 2021 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

45 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

 

Honestly, I'd be amazed if you could forensically identify a cartridge fired from a specific gun which would have been 1 of hundreds, if not thousands of identical others which would have been manufactured as a single batch.

Yo need to read The Other Mr. Churchill’, by, I think, Macdonald Hastings.

[enfieldspares]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

Yo need to read The Other Mr. Churchill’, by, I think, Macdonald Hastings.

+1. 

[ChrisO]

27 minutes ago, Scully said:

So if one of your guns is stolen and is then identified by the cartridges you have provided as being used for nefarious deeds, you are then in the predicament of having to prove where you were at the time said nefarious deed was done. 🤔

Don't think I’ll be bothering. 

Exactly my first thought, with my luck, I’d find myself in an ID parade with an elderly Aldi cashier scrutinising me.

[bluesj]

39 minutes ago, ChrisO said:

Exactly my first thought, with my luck, I’d find myself in an ID parade with an elderly Aldi cashier scrutinising me.

You better hope the cashier work at the aldi you use then! As said before I can't see that after a few thousand cartridges marks won't have changed

 

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Surely the answer to this request is for everybody to provide a pair and post them to their firearms dept. and see if they would like to keep them safe for possible future use.

That should cure the problem, the same as ten thousand people calling the police switchboard at 8.00 AM every Saturday morning because it has been requested that you call every time you go out with a gun.

That should do it 😁 and if you thought that one day maybe you  might need the visit the post office  with you're gun and leave empty cases around you could always just pick a couple out of the bin at a clay shoot and keep them.

 

[ChrisO]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Surely the answer to this request is for everybody to provide a pair and post them to their firearms dept. and see if they would like to keep them safe for possible future use.

That should cure the problem, the same as ten thousand people calling the police switchboard at 8.00 AM every Saturday morning because it has been requested that you call every time you go out with a gun.

Oh they specifically highlighted the part that said “don’t send them to us” 😂

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Did you get asked to label which barrel each one is from?

and maybe a 2.1/2..2.3/4..3..3.1.1/2 inch case from your semi auto 

Fair point, they’ve clearly not thought this through.

[saddler]

As this seems to be a new thing, I take it that we can charge a suitable weekly storage fee, plus a nominal charge for the cases, etc.

GMP eh?
Are they still one of the most gun crime blighted areas of the UK?

Dunno how much use fired cartridge cases are, forensically. Back in my Uni days the local inner city police found some used cartridge cases in the street one evening after shots were heard...the official statement to the press went along the lines that the empty cases were to be sent away for forensic examination to see if they'd been used in a pistol, rifle, shotgun or blank firer..🤪😬

[Gordon R]

I had the same request from GMP several years ago. I was never sure of the true value. You could keep cartridges from each and every gun you have owned over a 40 year period. That would amount to well over 100 cartridges for me, not to mention another 100 for the people I sold the guns to. Are Firearms dealers being asked to do the same thing? 

On paper, it sounds harmless enough, but I honestly wonder if there would ever be any follow up action.

[Vince Green]

I was told a long time ago by a senior police officer that stolen guns almost never resurface in this country. They are virtually always exported and Cyprus seems to be a favoured destination. The reason being that its the only way they can get the true market value for them

Edited June 8, 2021 by Vince Green

[Stonepark]

The chances of matching a shotgun case to a shotgun (best chance would be semi auto due to extractor claw) is remote as unlike a rifle we use mainly plastic cases with shotguns, unless a striker is broken or unique most shotguns are so similar chamber wise and striker wise and plastic malleable that foresnisically they are not dissimilar enough to link a certain cartridge to a gun.

It is more likely your oiling regime and unburnt\burnt powder if sticking to same brands would contaminate the cartridge case and be more useful.

Chances of someone else using the same cartridges and oiling regime as you is quite high, then you might end up in court for someone else's misdeeds.

Avoid this request like the plague, they have make model, calibre and serial no, that is more than they need to trace a gun.

 

Not that many go missing!

 

[Stonepark]

11 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I was told a long time ago by a senior police officer that stolen guns almost never resurface in this country. They are virtually always exported and Cyprus seems to be a favoured destination. The reason being that its the only way they can get the true market value for them

Similar with high end cars, can be out of country within hours.

[Gordon R]

Perhaps someone could explain the mechanics of this system. 

If the Police come across a stolen gun, they should be able to trace where it came from. If they come across a cartridge, dropped during a criminal act, how will they match it up to the ones that we are asked to retain. As they never see the retained cases, how do they know what we hold?

[Sussexboy]

22 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Perhaps someone could explain the mechanics of this system. 

If the Police come across a stolen gun, they should be able to trace where it came from. If they come across a cartridge, dropped during a criminal act, how will they match it up to the ones that we are asked to retain. As they never see the retained cases, how do they know what we hold?

Just thinking out loud here as it were. If your gun is stolen, I presume you would report it to the police. Said police may then ask for any specimen cartridges you have kept. They then have details of the stolen gun, and are in possession of identifiable material from that gun. Should any cartridges turn up at a crime scene, they can be compared for firing pin, ejector claw and breech marks. There are still gaps in it for me as the stolen gun could be used anywhere in the country and we do not have a national police force, so knowledge of these specimen cartridges may not be shared.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Sussexboy
I missed out a whole sentence!

[Stonepark]

Lets do worst case scenario.

 

Pheasant day, some one shoots a sparrowhawk which is illegal, but only bird is found later and pile of cartridges nearby all black gold no5, police ascertain shot likely through a Beretta cleaned with Legia from firing pin diameter and case residue.

How many guns do you think shoot this combination?

Gun having did the deed, knows to tell police he was using  VIP and took his cases home, when police ask all guns shooting that day.

what are the chances someone else on the day was using BG no5, Beretta and Legia and ends up in trouble? Pretty good chance, I would say.

 

The steel\plastic of a shotgun cartridge is not the same as a brass rifle bullet case and cannot be fire formed in the same way to leave markings as rifles or pistols do which are definitive enough to be reliable in court.

 

Thus is no different to DNA in the early days when they relied on so few markers, the results have since been challenged and overturned.

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Stonepark